SLASH

[Midknight]

slashy go in da MD section.

me no likely da pokey in da bum. me no in touch wit femine side, me rather touch a femine side dat not my own.


K... now that I've typed that to be sarcastic... how the hell do some of you (not in this thread in general) make posts like that and not want to bash your face in with a marshmellow?

[ip82]

Excuse me, but why is this story moved to the 18+ section?

I may not like it very much, but there is nothing here graphic enough to earn it a place here. As far as I know, this story is standard Slytherin AU, with the first two books being Gen and some very mild slash appearing in 3rd and 4th part. Hell, if there weren't for the blood and gore, this might as well been TEEN.

I mean honsetly, I understand pushing smut and graphic content under the carpet, but this? I beleive that slash in fanfiction is more a matter of taste and personal preference, than being some sort of mature subject, forbidden for anyone below 18.

It's just that smells closely like discrimination against gay people (like the niggers in the back of the buss or something). I mean, yeah it's admins' decision and all, but it still feels wrong somehow.

[LINKed up]

Well, ip, you ahve to remember that while most of the people here can't stand slash at all. Slash is supposed to goe here in the MD section. Its not discrimination. It was still the place for slash when it was S&P.

[ip82]

Well, ip, you ahve to remember that while most of the people here can't stand slash at all. Slash is supposed to goe here in the MD section. Its not discrimination. It was still the place for slash when it was S&P.

No, it was a place for graphic slash parodies, like Gio and Chuck's stories. These shouldn't be mixed up with teen stories, with two boys kissing eachother, no matter how distasteful I or anyone else find that to be.

Normal slash had always been placed in normal categories - I know, since I had posted a link to a slash story several months ago and there was no problems at all.

Dunno if this is a new policy or a mistake, but it still seems like kinda redneck, homofobic and generally small-minded thing to do.

Just my oppinion, of course - if other members like it this way, I guess that will have to be fine by me.

[chronic dragon]

i saw this fic on ff.net a couple times but always avoided reading it because it said eventual h/d slash plus the summary made it out to be that harry wasn't gonna be mentioned much. but since i read most of the good stories i was wading waist deep in horrible slash and h/g stories that i said screw it at decided to take a look. i thought it was a pretty good story so i read all the way up till the 4 one and quit cause i didn't like the fourth one. the slash isn't really mentioned. its not like theres a scene where draco tells harry to screw him good or anything.if you haven't even read any part of it or stopped reading because its gonna be a h/d slash then you're missing out on a good 3 stories.

[Midknight]

IP thats a relativley retarded way to describe that, and no offense intended I'm sure, but your description of why this was moved I'm sure offended quite alot more ppl then me moving a slash fic to the forum it's supposed to be in in the first place. I understand you are from a country that doesn't have many emotions attached to that word, but here it's not acceptable just to toss that out like that.

Discuss fanfiction and subject matter that includes, but is not limited to, fanfics w/ excessive graphic material, SLASH, and gross-out parodies. Enter at your own risk. Only for those 18 years or older.

We've had this discussion before, and we're not going to go through it again in extreme depth. But to gloss over it From the inception of the site, slash was supposed to go here. I'm sure there's a few I've missed moving in, but regardless this subforum was never intended for the graphic crap Gio and Charlie perverted it into in the abscence of admin enforcement. When we came back in here to clean it up (mostly, except for the major legacy thread that was requested stay) we intended for it to be what the descriptor says it should be.

Call it whatever you like, but I know personally 3/4s of the admins ( I can't remember about Zev atm) want nothing to do with slash, but we tolerate it on the site s o long as it's not graphic as hell. (and yes I realize it's hypocritical to leave TOO but that's a decision that's been made for now)

I really wish you guys would knock of the nazi admin worrying, for all the work we do, it's really screwed everytime we have to defend stupid little things we do, not to mention when the complaining is accompanied by insults such as ""it still seems like kinda redneck, homofobic and generally small-minded thing to do. "

[ip82]

First, I'd like to appologize to the admins and other members for the overly biting tone my post took. It wasn't intended to be this way, I got a little carried away while trying to warn about what I perceive to be a shortsighed and foolish decision by this site's management.

I'll elaborate further, so not to confuse this with bitching about nazi adminstration (this is about general rules of the forum, not about the way admins are enforcing them):

1) I already said that it's discriminatory. I'm not gay, but if I were, I'd be offended by the way slash stories are handled in such a homophobic way -like it's so shameful being gay that people younger than 18 shouldn't even be allowed to hear about it (that's at least how I think they would feel).

2) It's unfeasable - what stories are considered "slashy" enough to be placed here? Is it Harry saying he's gay but doing nothing about it? Is it Harry being Het but having a gay friend? Is it Harry being Het during the whole story and the turning bi for one chapter? Is it harem!Harry walking down the street and seeing two blokes kissing eachother? Should Power of Time by RossWrock (rated T) be here because of that one Harry/Neville kissing joke?

What I am saying is that you can't possibly enforce something like this - you'll either end up with half of the stories on this site bunched together here or with people not knowing where to look when searching for a story.

Hell, there are many much more graphic slash stories than this one still in the general sections, one of these being my own post from few months ago - http://forums.darklordpotter.net/viewtopic.php?t=1041. All of the admins (including you, Mid) posted their coments there and none thought of moving it anywhere, which points out that this is a new rule and had not always been this site's policy (thus the bitching :-))

3) If you put R-rated and Teen stories here, that ruins the whole concept of Mature 18+ section.

Imagine a 13 year old teen girl typing in her favourite Harry/Drakey Teen-rated fluff story in the search engine, seeing TEEN rating in the title, clicking on it and ending up in 18+ section. And then imagine her parents finding that out and suing this site for baiting youngsters into the adult section by posting non-adult material in it.

If nothing else, at least split slash from 18+, because otherwise it simply makes no sense.

As for the N word, yeah I suppose that many Americans find it too taboo to use, so I'll stop using it. My intention was to point out discriminatory tone of segregating even the mildly slashy stories from the rest of the fandom. Again, if I offended anyone by this, I appologize.

PS Even without all this, "Saving Conor" shouldn't be here. While it is true that it's 3rd sequel contains mild slash, "Saving Conor" itself is basically a M-rated GEN story.

[Yarrgh!]

Ok...my opinion?

I cannot stand angst. I hate the self-pitying, examine-my-life-for-shitholes sort of attitude that most angst writers use.

I have enough shit in my own life to deal with, so i really don't want to see some asshole ruining a fandom by self-inserting his personal problems or whatever into a story for pity and sympathy.

I know this seems like it's coming down really hard, but tough shit. It is. I'm not even gonna pretend like i feel this way about it just once in a while...i simply cannot stand it.

Honestly, are people that pathetic that they have to throw their own problems out into fandoms? Get psychiatric help instead.

And if they aren't plugging their problems in to the stories, that means that they honestly like to read stories where nothing goes right for Harry or whatever character it is. Why?

What't the point? Are you that much of a sadist that you enjoy reading and hearing about people having their emotions skewed? Or do you find it satisfying to know that there are things out there that are worse than what have happened to you?

Jesus. Like 15% of the stories on FFNet feature Harry going through MPD or Schitzophrenia. I find it disgusting to read some fic where Harry beasically gets jerked around by everything and everyone, and simply takes it like a good boy. Even the typical super!Harry that's full of cliches doesn't do something as blatantly odd as this.

Sure, i know that my sig contains a link to a sicky fic i wrote. What's your point? I'm writing Dark!Evil!Harry. This is just vague interest; i'm not working on this fic full time and indulging every sick fantasy i've had. Angst on the other hand is foul...it's an obsession. People come to FFNet for the sole purpose of reading a fic where Harry gets the living shit beaten out of him, gets raped, and then gets forced by Dumbeldore to do exactly as he says. Around two years ago, this shit would have been infrequent like hell, and those that wrote it did not do it as an obsession. Now? It's a disease.

Now, it seems like hurt/comfort shit-stabber fics are simply rank...and FFNEt loves it. It's their fault. When they delete good fics and allow this shit to remain, that only encourages people into thinking shitty emotions and eventually feeling them. I know i'm not the only writer/reader who tries to feel the emotions while writing/reading.

FFNet really has to rethink it's policy...graphic fics depicting Harry being beaten to within an inch of his life seem to stick around longer than any others. The only one i'm reading is the one by Lanindur D'Undarian...and i entirely skipped the beating to read the main part of the story...the manipulations.

I don't give a shit about slash. You like it, you read it. But it seems like all slash stories these days start out with the character being manhandled, and then finding solace in the arms of his greatest enemy or whatever. And it doesn't help that no one seems to care about how graphic it is. If anyone's read that Devon Evander Potter story, you know exactly what i'm talking about. It explains each...movement quite graphically and slowly.

I apologize to readers, admins and mods for the rant, but the shit has really started to hit the fan.

[nonjon]

Just to toss out my two cents, this forum has never been advertised as being for everyone. Most Ginny fans will hate it here. Most slash fans may too.

Now the large majority of fanfic sites will have K rated stories with mommy and daddy kissing. And they will also have K rated stories with daddy and daddy kissing. Nothing wrong with that.

But this forum and website wants slash fics put under this subheading. It might help if they were more clear about this in the forum rules. Bits like this **NOTE**If your story fits in multiple forums, please choose one that fit the best. may leave people thinking "It's slash, but they never get beyond kissing. Of course it is about Harry jumping back in time and teaching the Marauders so I'll call it a 'Time Travel' fic."

If the rule is all slash should go in MD18+, it'd help to be clearer on that. Or if you just mean all Harry/Someone slash relationships. Because a fic may be Harry/Bellatrix and Remus/Sirius. Does that constitute slash for MD18+ forum only?

But let's not start name-calling the admins for the policies they set up. They could just as easily not allow any slash to be posted. They could turn it into a Harry/Ginny only forum too. It's their site, their rules, and they're the ones stuck adminning it.

Then again, there is a point in between name-calling or shock value comparisons and blind acceptance of rules where you can constructively argue against rules you disagree with. Might be best put in private messages though. Personally, I think the idea that all slash goes in MD is a bit closed-minded. If all the admins hate slash and don't particularly want to see it on their site, that's fine. So they compromise by throwing it into this section thereby having their own special way to 'tolerate' it, without actually checking the links of fics they find distasteful. They can appear the good guys here. Now, true, this actually discourages posting slash fics greatly, and makes the slash recommendations look even worse by occasionally being somewhat miscategorized, but it all comes back to their site, their rules. Respect them or you get tossed.

Now if you try to intelligently argue your point, and manipulate the admins into bending over backwards to accommodate a grouping of fics they can't stand just so they don't look bad or feel guilty, well then... then I probably can't help you.

[ip82]

Nope, I'm done arguing. I don't care about the topic one way or the other, really - it was more for the general principle of things.

I stated all the points I've had, appologized for breaking taboos and offending admins and that's it as far as I'm concerned. They can decide one way or the other now, but I'm done with this topic - like nonjon said, it's their site after all.

[ChuckDaTruck]

I don't know about this. It is certainly a tricky issue. ON the one hand, this is a matter of taste. They shold be able to run their site however they want. That being said, I feel like this is somewhat ostracizing of the Gay community. I'm not gay, so whatever, but what do you guys think?

[Midknight]

A)Gio or Charlie this topic was not needed to be split. I meant what I said about wanting no further discussion about it, b/c frankly I'm tired of defending every little thing we do from asking for smaller sigs, to yelling at folks for 5 inch wide pics, to pruning threads of nothing but spam or post whoreing.

Some folks have got to get it out of their minds that this isn't a democratic board. We'll try to do what we think is best, but it's ultimatly up to us to decide, and constant complaints are rather more annoying then helpful. It just needs to be looked at, say "Okay I'll follow it" or I don't agree with that but I can't do anything about it, and let it be.

IP are you channeling Damian's spirit? You say it's our decision to make, yet you argue the other way. Not to mention it makes no sense when you've said multiple time's you're homophobic, it's like a KKK member back in the 50's defending a black guy of a crime, you just kind of stand there and go wtf.

Yet since this has to be discussed for some reason, forgive me if my annoyance shines through, I've done edits to try to make it less aggresive:

I find it amusing that I caught hell when I defended the rights for folks to post H/G fics here, provided they're worth reading, yet I have to defend our stance on slash the same way, in a group of ppl that majorally bashes slash WAY worse then anything else, stained future included. You can post it if it's good, but it needs to be in here, since I'm fairly sure none of us classify slash as we do the other cats.

I'd rather no slash was here at all, as I'm sure many others do as well, but there are indeed a few good stories out there that are great if you can ignore the emo-Harry slash parts, and we're trying to be fair. I could be an ass and just yank the damned things out of here, b/c I'm utterly sick of anyone who hits the register button thinking it's okay to tell us how to run the site that they voluntarily come to. I'm not aiming this at anyone in general (well.. Damian) but I'm sick of it.


1) I already said that it's discriminatory. I'm not gay, but if I were, I'd be offended by the way slash stories are handled in such a homophobic way -like it's so shameful being gay that people younger than 18 shouldn't even be allowed to hear about it (that's at least how I think they would feel).

Thats a hell of a stretch. One of the reasons it got lumped in b/c it's not worth making yet another barely used category for them, and usually they contain very graphic sex, because for some reason being gay means he has to have multiple graphic sex scenes. het pairings by comparison can swing the gamit from really graphic, to not at all. The graphic het ones come in here as well. Discrimination? *shrug*

2) It's unfeasable - what stories are considered "slashy" enough to be placed here?

Anything with slash taking a major role, or Harry being gay in a not easily overlookable role. Call it discrimination, make up picket signs, I really, really couldn't care. This is where it's going. Make another voodoo doll of me for you folks that hate me already and poke it, *shrug*

What I am saying is that you can't possibly enforce something like this - you'll either end up with half of the stories on this site bunched together here or with people not knowing where to look when searching for a story.

We work harder then you'd realize keeping the site at least halfway organized. It'll be enforced, even if many that are posted have simply been overlooked or forgotten about. As for not knowing where to look, there's a search button up top, which over half of the folks here can't figure out how to use looking for a normal fic, why the hell would it be any different when they're looking for butt pirate Harry?

Not to mention it says in the description for the subforum SLASH, so you'd have to be blind to miss it if you were looking for it.

Hell, there are many much more graphic slash stories than this one still in the general sections, one of these being my own post from few months ago - http://forums.darklordpotter.net/viewtopic.php?t=1041. All of the admins (including you, Mid) posted their coments there and none thought of moving it anywhere, which points out that this is a new rule and had not always been this site's policy (thus the bitching :-))

I already addressed this."I'm sure there's a few I've missed moving in, but regardless this subforum was never intended for the graphic crap Gio and Charlie perverted it into in the abscence of admin enforcement"

It's not a new policy either, the OLD descriptor for the S&P forum said slash. Folks chose to ignore it, and most of us were too busy doing things to enforce it. It's another example of the whole staff not doing their jobs up to par, and when it's revisited folks get offended when it's been the rule all along.


I'm not even going to address #3, it's just.. ug.

Bottom line, it's in here, it's staying here, end of story. You want it taken out, make a new link for the first few that aren't slash happy, then one in here for the slash ones. I'll admit I haven't read it, but considering atm I'm wading in multiple PM's, emails, and Im's from various members I'm too busy to check each and every story on this site. If it gets labeled as slash, it goes here. If it doesn't, and it's posted. It'll be deleted. If it continues to be a problem I'll just remove it, I have zero free time as is without debating over rules.

[Antivash]

IP, dont take this the wrong way, because i respect you, but that is pretty much what MY problem with Damien [The latest victim of Mid's banstick]..

You have the same sort of attitude. But on a much smaller level. and that is thusly:

You seem to want to argue until an admin shows up... then you mysteriously dont care about the topic. Im not saying you do but you expend an awful lot of energy for something you dont care about..

A message to everyone: We, the admins, respect all of you and WANT to hear your opinions and everything like that, but inevitably the rules are not negotiable. Dont waste your energy. You only annoy the staff.

[ChuckDaTruck]

I moved it. Not Gio, and I'm sorry. I only read bits and pieces, but I figured that we weren't on topic about Saving Connor, and I figured this had enough posts to form its own topic.. I'm sorry. Lock it if you guys want.

[Giovanni]

I am going to make my own view on this clear, I know it is not the majority opinion, but I don't think that ALL Slash belongs in here.

If that is the case, then all of the 3-way pairing bi-sexual female stories belong in here to. What we have is a bit of a double standard going on at the moment, and although I don't happen to agree with, or like it, I realize that the site Admin has legitimate concerns about having Slash in the mainstream part of the forum, after all, it is a VERY sensitive issue not only within the fandom, but within this forum itself, and not many people have the MATURITY required to see well written slash for what it is; instead, they bow down to their knee-jerk reactions.

With all of that said, although I was expecting Saving Connor to be moved in here, I was a little bit dissappointed. And although I understand the reasons, I think it is an indictment of the fandom itself that many of us cannot accept well-written slash for what it is, and instead pursue a reactionary path of double-think hypocrisy.

I don't mean to offend anybody; this is just my own personal viewpoint, and as I have stated in other threads I detest the majority of the slash that is written, and have given up on the side of the fandom as a whole (both male, and female), due to the remarkably poor quality of the majority of the fics... The same goes for Harry/Ginny.

In conclusion, Slash belongs in this section, not because it is wrong, immoral, or disgusting, it is not any of those by any stretch of the imagination. Slash belongs here, because the majority of those in the fandom are incapable of obectively viewing it. When you go in here there is supposed to be an expectation of maturity, which is needed when reading slash, because many people have a natural knee-jerk reaction against it.

In a perfect world, Saving Connor would be in the regular section of the forums because in a perfect world people would see it for its literary value rather than its pairing. However this is not a perfect world. I agree with the decision, but philosophically I am diametrically opposed to it.


EDIT: I agree with Nonjon's opinion. There needs to be a rating system in place. My above post is merely my opinion in absence of a rating system.

[ip82]

Some folks have got to get it out of their minds that this isn't a democratic board. We'll try to do what we think is best, but it's ultimatly up to us to decide, and constant complaints are rather more annoying then helpful. It just needs to be looked at, say "Okay I'll follow it" or I don't agree with that but I can't do anything about it, and let it be.

I never once criticized or complained to the admins for one specific decision or the other (why is he banned, why is that deleted etc) - my only suggestions and complaints to the admins were regarding the general organization of the site - should this category be here or there and stuff like that.

I admit that this had started as a complaint about Conor, but my main point was once again suggestion about changing the rules of the site.

IP are you channeling Damian's spirit? You say it's our decision to make, yet you argue the other way.

That's called feedback - members tell you what they THINK and state their points; the admins hear them out (or not), and decide one way or the other.

How will you know what people on this forum like and not, if you refuse to accept any kind of feedback from the members? I really don't see harm in members suggesting things that can be improved or changed on the forum. I think that responding to suggestions and yes, even complaints should be a part of normal communication between owners and members of any online comunity.

Not to mention it's stupid when you've said multiple time's you're homophobic, it's like a KKK member back in the 50's defending a black guy of a crime, you just kind of stand there and go wtf.

I feel uncomfortable when I see two guys kissing each other and can't stand to read slash. I never said I hate them or have anything against them gaining their rights (marriage).

To me, that's homophobic. To others, homophobic is chasing faggots with baseball bats. In the end, it's all a matter of phrasing.

Make another voodoo doll of me for you folks that hate me already and poke it, *shrug*

MID: That seems to be the main problem here. For some reason, you feel that any complaint against a decision you make is aimed personally against you and your authority.

I don't hate you. I rather like your style, actually. I just disagree with you on this matter in particular. I however agree with bunch of your other decisions. Other folk will agree with this, but disagree with some other decisions. When people complain, they don't complain about YOU, but about your particular decisions. That's just a part of having a position of authority and making decisions.

You seem to want to argue until an admin shows up... then you mysteriously dont care about the topic. Im not saying you do but you expend an awful lot of energy for something you dont care about..

I'm not backing up on anything I said, other that the things I've already apologized about (N word and harsh language).

When I said I'm done with arguing, I meant that I stated all the arguments I had to support my opinion and that I didn't plan to keep bothering the stuff with it any more. Simple YES or NO with few words of explanation would have sufficed.

Besides, I thought Admins don't like arguing about their decisions... Are you saying I should continue arguing? This is not a normal topic, remember, but a suggestion that's threating to turn into pointless bickering.

As for caring about the topic - I care about this forum and it's well-being, but not about slash stories. Mix that together, and you get 50-50. Meh...

Now, since the suggestion is refused, is there really the need to discuss this further?

[Midknight]

MID: That seems to be the main problem here. For some reason, you feel that any complaint against a decision you make is aimed personally against you and your authority.

Ah I see I think I deleted something in the edit. IP I apologize, I'd originally had a line that said something like, "this isn't directed at you, but in general..." at the start. I think I deleted it and reworded it and moved it much further down for some reason.

It was less of a reply to you and more to the flood of PM's I got regarding this. Trust me, most of my decisions do indeed bug at least one person, and I get PM's out the ass to attest to it, most of which do indeed directly personally either attack me, or question my sanity. Most of the post actually isn't necc. aimed at you, but to those folks who'd rather PM and complain then post openly. The voodoo doll comment was poking fun at a complainer who basically though it was okay to curse me out since it was a PM.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when it's clearly stated that it isn't wanted and the matter isn't open for debate, then that needs to be it. I've ceased reading PM's or emails on the matter. I've been quite a hardass lately, and it's the aforementioned items that've made me that way. I don't enjoy getting a IM when I'm trying to relax about so and so flaming the snot out of another poster. I have a job to do and I like it, but try getting those or something similar every 15+ minutes and I think you'll see why I'm getting irritated with constantly defending everything we do here. It's gotten so bad I stopped turning my messengers on except for the name only a few folks know, and IRC.

If that is the case, then all of the 3-way pairing bi-sexual female stories belong in here too

As stands if it's graphic it'll be in here, if it's fem/fem it should be in here. Tbh I wouldn't move bi!Harry in here, if I have accidentally please inform me, but I wouldn't move it in here unless it was listed as Slash, and I hadn't read it to confirm.


With all of that said, although I was expecting Saving Connor to be moved in here, I was a little bit dissappointed. And although I understand the reasons, I think it is an indictment of the fandom itself that many of us cannot accept well-written slash for what it is, and instead pursue a reactionary path of double-think hypocrisy.

I've asked that if it's that sensitive a subject that so many are freaking out about, make a link to the nonslash bits outside, and change the thread in here for the slashy parts. I agree with some of your points, however, the rule ever since S&P was created, was that was where slash was going to go. It's not mine, nor anyone else's fault that it was allowed outside and not moved back in, but it was our fault as staff for not doing so.