Wormhole and various scientific discussion

[Dark Jedi Knight]

This is probably going to be too high-brow for this group, but I'll ask it here anyway. When traveling through a wormhole, does time move faster or slower in relation to the Universe outside of the wormhole? If you can back up your arguments, it would be really helpful.

[Harpy Prince]

This is probably going to be too high-brow for this group, but I'll ask it here anyway. When traveling through a wormhole, does time move faster or slower in relation to the Universe outside of the wormhole? If you can back up your arguments, it would be really helpful.I say if it works anything like a vacuum it would probably be faster. Then again I have no idea what I'm talking about so *shrugs.

[Zevrillion]

This is probably going to be too high-brow for this group, but I'll ask it here anyway. When traveling through a wormhole, does time move faster or slower in relation to the Universe outside of the wormhole? If you can back up your arguments, it would be really helpful.

I would say No. The traveler don't have to move that fast, so you don’t have to worry about the time difference you get when you move near the speed of light.

The only thing a wormhole does is creating a short cut in space-time. But scientists have speculated that you can travel in time with a wormhole and to different universes, but I don’t think you were talking about that.

From what I understand of it, there isn’t any time difference between the inside of the wormhole and the outside, but it might connect to a different time and then you move in time also. But not in the usual type of wormholes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

[Lutris Argutiae]

You know what?

I hate astro-physics.

[LINKed up]

Well, this is assuming that wormholes do exsist, right? While I'm not saying that they can't exsist, because I think that as far as we know, anything is possible, just somethings are highly immprobible. But wormholes are just basically tunnels through space-time that connect one place/universe to another place/universe right?

[That_Boy]

This is probably going to be too high-brow for this group, .
Am I the only one who is mildly offended by this?
;)
I would think that, despite what is shown in movies and stuff, a wormhole would be instantaneous. It's a hole in space/time so presumably those concepts are completely removed when inside. So when you emerge it is at the same time that you entered and in a different place.

[Zevrillion]

Well, this is assuming that wormholes do exsist, right? While I'm not saying that they can't exsist, because I think that as far as we know, anything is possible, just somethings are highly immprobible. But wormholes are just basically tunnels through space-time that connect one place/universe to another place/universe right?

Well, you need negative mass and exotic material from a black hole, and who knows what else to stabilize a wormhole and make it travelable. So the only place you will find a wormhole in the near future is in books and movies.

[That_Boy]

Well, you need negative mass and exotic material from a black hole, and who knows what else to stabilize a wormhole and make it travelable. So the only place you will find a wormhole in the near future is in books and movies.

Unless of course one is formed by accident or coincidence. The thing is, so much work on this is purely theoretical that we might never know if it ever exists. Like Dark Matter etc. there is a huge amount of research and documentation on it but it hasn't even been proved to exist or not yet. Kind of like god.....

[Sepanto]

I believe that to oneself, to the one inside the wormhole time moves as usual, but watched from outside the wormhole, time seems ALOT slower because the speed of light is GREATLY decreased by the enourmous gravity (assuming it is not also a black hole). Please note that the speed of light may slow down, assuming we take einstien's e=mc^2 as a truth, and as such light has (however infinitesimal) mass.

[Violent Seas]

I believe that to oneself, to the one inside the wormhole time moves as usual, but watched from outside the wormhole, time seems ALOT slower because the speed of light is GREATLY decreased by the enourmous gravity (assuming it is not also a black hole). Please note that the speed of light may slow down, assuming we take einstien's e=mc^2 as a truth, and as such light has (however infinitesimal) mass.


exactly, if Einstein is correct.

[Inferi]

According to Stephen Hawking, in "A Brief History of Time", a wormhole is a hole in space-time, therefore time does not exist inside the hole, as humans we might preceive 'time' as we go through, but we wont know until when/if we travel through one, but even if you preceive years as you go through the hole, there would be no passage of time outside as you travel.

[Dark Jedi Knight]

I wrote that your discussion was meritless because no one was linking to any of the evidence that supported them (aside from one Wikipedia link).

I also wrote that since there was so little verifiable non-speculative data any "debate" of the issue was meritless speculation.

I concluded that I thought the debate was pointless.

Sree got offended (or complained to) and snipped it.

He is probably going to snip this post as well, but thats ok.

*kisses Sree because he loves him anyway*

In short, I condemned this debate as stupid and utterly pointless because without seeing (and understanding) the information that many of the posted arguments are based on, pointless unproductive speculation will waste board space. I don't object to the topic's presence... But if you are going to say "well there's lots of documentation" then how about a little linky love? Because unless you deal with this shit in your day to day career then you can't leave a statement like that dangling.

I actually did ask for them to back up their arguments, so I can understand why you said what you did. Just to remind everyone else, If you can back what you're saying with either a refrence to a text, or a webpage, that would be greatly apreciated.

[Sree]

Erm...who snipped my snip? Was it you, freshie? :P

Sorry, Gio, I was a little grouchy after a fight with my dad, so I added that little bit about the governments. You did come off rather arrogant, though, and you didn't say anything about people backing up their arguments. All you said was that it was useless to talk about something that you can't do anything about (pointless...proftiless...). Paraphrased of course. And...I've been using that color for a while, Gio, it wasn't yours to begin with.

[LINKed up]

Okay, just checking on this, but a wormhole is theorized as being a black hle and a white hole connected together right? Also just checking, a white hole is the exact opposite of a black hole, meaning that nothing can get inside of it correct?

Edit: I just checked about wite holes, and the article that I read said that they would be the exact opposite of a black hole, meaning that where matter dissappears in a black hole, it appears in the white hole. http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=108

[Dark Jedi Knight]

Okay, just checking on this, but a wormhole is theorized as being a black hle and a white hole connected together right? Also just checking, a white hole is the exact opposite of a black hole, meaning that nothing can get inside of it correct?

Edit: I just checked about wite holes, and the article that I read said that they would be the exact opposite of a black hole, meaning that where matter dissappears in a black hole, it appears in the white hole. http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=108

Actually, no. When something gets sucked into a Black Hole, it tends to get shredded into its constituent sub-atomic particles; which are then, in turn, spaghettified. If and when these particles are ejected out of a White Hole, there is absolutely no chance of them retaining their former shape or structure; which makes travelling through them suicidal at best.

Note: There are different types of Black Holes out there, each with different properties. It is theorised that Ring Black Holes could possibly allow trans-dimensional travel, but only if the ob ject travelling through it passes directly through the centre of the ring singularity at the speed of light; without touching the sides of the ring.

[Midknight]

This is probably going to be too high-brow for this group, .
Am I the only one who is mildly offended by this?

No you're not, but by judging from some of the comments I've heard about this thread, he may have a small point.

I however, agree with Gio and Chuck's sentiments, and I can't fathom how millions upon millions gets spent studying worthless crap like this, no offense intended, when they could be studying ways to get the population out of the poverty level much of it's in.

While I understand chunks of it from late night reading, I say unless they have at least a small bit of proof to base these theories off of, they need to stfu and go to work on fixing world hunger, and stop getting hard ons thinking if some wormhole countless light years away allows time travel or not. Now IF we ever master faster then light travel, and wormholes/blackholes become a problem we have to deal with, then yeah study them, but wtf is the point at the moment?

[bornagainpenguin]

This is probably going to be too high-brow for this group, .
Am I the only one who is mildly offended by this?

No you're not, but by judging from some of the comments I've heard about this thread, he may have a small point.

Funny... I had the same reaction. Then again people with a strong interest in fantasy aren't necessarily the same people who would be into the 'hard sciences' the SF&F sections at the bookstores none withstanding. Another point to be made is the question: How many people bother with 'Hard SF' these days? It used to be for a short while you had actual scientists writing science fiction and actually putting science in the fiction. Seems to have fallen out of favor these days if what I see in the bookstores is any indication of what is popular.

I however, agree with Gio and Chuck's sentiments, and I can't fathom how millions upon millions gets spent studying worthless crap like this, no offense intended, when they could be studying ways to get the
population out of the poverty level much of it's in.

While I understand chunks of it from late night reading, I say unless they have at least a small bit of proof to base these theories off of, they need to stfu and go to work on fixing world hunger, and stop getting hard ons thinking if some wormhole countless light years away allows time travel or not. Now IF we ever master faster then light travel, and wormholes/blackholes become a problem we have to deal with, then yeah study them, but wtf is the point at the moment?

Well that's the paradox between 'applied' research and 'pure' research. No one knows what avenue of research will produce results that can be used in everyday application. Furthermore, one of the prime tenets of science is the constant questioning of results in research, yours, theirs, everyone's. So duplication as annoying as it may seem and as wasteful as it might be is still necessary.

I may be misremembering this, but I seem to recall a few experiments (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/06may_lunarranging.htm) that may invalidate the Galileo Free fall Experiments. A questionable use of money? Perhaps, but consider--if they manage to prove Galileo incorrect, they manage to prove Eisenstein to be incorrect as well... We already know there is a huge power potential in the atom, what power potential could there be hidden in gravity? Given how much it affects us, its practically criminal how little we understand this force! For an often used but still very relevant example of how pure research can lead to very profitable (ie practical) applications in 'real life' look at the space program! Its more than just TANG you know...

--bornagainpenguin (who wishes he were more awake so he could discuss this topic more clearly)

PS: Come to think of it, the research into telomorase came about from research on cancer did it not? What a leap! Starting from research on how to prevent cancer leading into research on possible benefits from understanding how cancer works!

PPS: Please don't take this post as an attack on you or the moderators here at DLP.net, I just find the subject matter to be fascinating! Sure I'd agree with you that some research is ridiculously useless, the problem is that until we get results its impossible to know which research is the useless one!

[Midknight]

Too tired to argue the first half, so I'll choose the easiest route I can at least attempt to discuss coherantly.


PS: Come to think of it, the research into telomorase came about from research on cancer did it not? What a leap! Starting from research on how to prevent cancer leading into research on possible benefits from understanding how cancer works!

Bad example for this reason. To understand how to kill something like that, you first must discover what keeps it alive. Very simple to see how that was a natural part of it.

Pinging lasers off the moon? Why the hell for? Is it coming closer to us? Is it going farther away? No? Nice waste of cash I say!

meh. I'm not going to try to get more into it. Space exploration needs to stop, it's insane expensive, underwater exploration at the moment would be far more beneficial with the exception being a extinction event meteor, but that's been covered before in some NASA thread.

[bornagainpenguin]

...underwater exploration at the moment would be far more beneficial with the exception being a extinction event meteor, but that's been covered before in some NASA thread.

Now that is something I couldn't agree more on! As with gravity, the oceans are something that have far too much impact on our daily lives for the pitiful amount of actual knowledge we actually have on them! Given that there is so much more water than there is dry land on this planet its criminal the lack of exploration we've done underwater.

Heck given all the percentages I'd not be surprised at all to discover that there exist another intelligent speices on planet Earth living in the world's oceans and it only pure dumb blind luck that we have yet to meet. Do a google on USO --Unidentified Submerged Objects for speculation in this vein.

--bornagainpenguin (who conceeds your point on the telomorase\cancer discussion; that was a bad example I couldn't think of a better one tho'...hmm.. this doesn't exactly help further my point does it? I think I'd better shut it now before I completly trash my own arguments!)

[Midknight]

Now that is something I couldn't agree more on! As with gravity, the oceans are something that have far too much impact on our daily lives for the pitiful amount of actual knowledge we actually have on them! Given that there is so much more water than there is dry land on this planet its criminal the lack of exploration we've done underwater.

Heck given all the percentages I'd not be surprised at all to discover that there exist another intelligent speices on planet Earth living in the world's oceans and it only pure dumb blind luck that we have yet to meet. Do a google on USO --Unidentified Submerged Objects for speculation in this vein.

Aye Dolphins themselves are abnormally smart, something most of us regard as simply another fish.

USO's I've looked at before on various sites, cryptozoology.com has USO's linked to underwater unidentified life being one of the many that pops to mind. Lots of strange sounds and strange animals in the ocean. Especially considering how shallow we've gone and in so few spots? They discover new stuff every day.

The various stuff they find off the coast of Madagascar every so often alone proves we don't know jack about what's in the ocean, b/c we're barely skimming the depths.

[Zevrillion]

Aye Dolphins themselves are abnormally smart, something most of us regard as simply another fish.

:D Love your sarcasm.


It's quite interesting how easy it is to see the difference between an aquatic mammal and a fish.

Aquatic mammals swim with an up and down motion, which they acquired from there days when they walked on land.

A fish uses a right to left motion to swim.


I am supporting under water explorations as long as their goal is not to find more oil.

[That_Boy]

underwater exploration at the moment would be far more beneficial .

That's why I work in diving, there's so many opportunities for discovery and research, ones I finish uni I am going to try and go into marine exploration of some sort.

[LINKed up]

Well, when you think about it, before we can really do more exploration, we need a better submarine, because our current ones need to be levels to function. A while back I read that this one guy made this new type of submarine that could function like a small personal jet underwater and didn't have to be level to function properly.

[tridentwatch]

Wow.... A little bit too high brow for me. I dont understand anything you guys are saying. Do these things actually exist or are you making it up? Myeh... It is a fan fiction website...

[Midknight]

It's quite interesting how easy it is to see the difference between an aquatic mammal and a fish.

Aquatic mammals swim with an up and down motion, which they acquired from there days when they walked on land.


Aye hence my point of most folks thinking it's a fish, folks just simply keep their eyes closed when things possibly greater them themselves are involved.

[EsperJones]

Anyone see the interpretation in Farscape?

[LINKed up]

That was an entirley random question... and what do you mean by interpretation? I have seen Farscape, but I don't get what you mean by the interpretation of it...

[Midknight]

A wormhole yanked the guy cross space, then they used the holes to travel didn't they? (I've seen literally the pilot, and one more random episode)

[EsperJones]

It's a completely different explanation. Time still passes for the pilot while traveling, and he has some semblance of control, but his destination is a random point in space time, which can even be before he left.

[tridentwatch]

Aye hence my point of most folks thinking it's a fish, folks just simply keep their eyes closed when things possibly greater them themselves are involved.

Err.. isnt a crocodile a type of fish?

[Midknight]

No, they're aquatic reptiles

[tridentwatch]

Why are we talking about aquatic reptiles when we should be talking about worm holes.

BTW I searched white hole on google and it gave me a picture of a sheep's "thing" :puke:

[LINKed up]

This topic is called "Wormholes and Various Scientific Discussion," meaning that if it is scientific, we can talk about it and have a discussion. In the May 2006 issue of Popsci, the cover story was weapon-grade lasers. Basically, it talked about the two kinds of lasers that are the most promising, sloid-state and free-electron, how they worked, who is making them, etc. Now, on popsci.com, you can see a movie of the FEL (free-electron laser) firing. In the article, one guy said something to the point of "Its like shining a flashlight on something, and the thing melts". You can go and read the article here (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviationspace/a4ce42fd3f98a010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html) if you so wish. And before anyone asks, you would not see a laser beam because that would mean that the laser is ionizing the air around it as it fires, which wastes a lot of energy.

[noddwyd]

I think a far more likely topic to yield applicable results would be subspace and yes our ideas about light and gravity are wrong, but still serve a purpose for the time being. Order isn't an illusion but the order we see is. That's why so many people find the universe a big joke, thought they can't articulate it.

[Xiph0]

BTW I searched white hole on google and it gave me a picture of a sheep's "thing" :puke:


:sigh: I seriously got to ask, are you new?

[Amerision]

Applying my incredibly intelligent brain to this respectable scientific discussion, I shall attempt to explain my views on the debated subject:

Wormholes, as you all know, are passages through spacetime, either traversing through space OR time, or space AND time.

Now, the answer depends on how the wormhole is created:

If a wormhole is created through the blackhole (the singularity's mass would tear a hole into spacetime, and puncture through a neighboring universe's spacetime - creating a shortlived funnel. The singularity would, of course, destabilize upon traversing across universes as removing itself from its universe would cause it to form spacetime around itself when it is between universes

(this happens due to the fact that it is mass and mass MUST occupy space - so its very existence implies that some form of space must form around it to define its existence. Either this or the singularity takes some space time with it from its universe of birth and envelopes it around itself when it tears off of the entire spacetime continnumm. Shaped like a raindrop, the tear quickly heals itself and reattaches. If it didn't, the universe would be destroyed - as billions of years have gone by, this is highly unlikely.)

the sheer amount of energy required to do such a thing, and the unknown forces that would occur from the tear in spacetime and its subsequent healing would disrupt the delicated balance that has shrunk the singularity to Schwartzchild's limit (spelling), causing it to explode. Much like the Big bang. (Anyone think this may be how universes are formed? Bigger universes giving birth to smaller ones? Imagine the black hole that must have created THIS universe. Big Fucker, that one!) The energy would be contained in the pocket universe, as well as the mass - the kickback from the explosion would quickly expand the mini-universe so that it meets the healing end of its old universe and its healing border, and its strained otherside to the new universe. This brief connection would allow the energy to dissapate across the two new exits, giving off a stream of energy that makes the wormhole bright (as well as deadly if you don't have some sort of shield). The energy kickback expands the universe in all directions, remember, so the miniuniverse is now much larger than a singularity (smaller than an atom). This allows travel though this temporary conduit through the universes. But, the momentum carrying away the miniuniverse from its original universe rips off contact to its mother universe and makes it go towards the new universe, before completely joining it. Thats why the departure part of the wormhole closes first.

The sheer gravitational disturbance from the singularity's explosion and the forming of a new universe would have an effect on the passage of time. Remember that going faster would render you a bit less resistant to the passage of time? Extreme gravitational forces also effect time, forming a bubble around the source that lessens the speed of passing time.

This means that relative to the old and new universes (providing that time passes at equal rates in both universes), you are experiencing less time gone past in the wormhole, than out.


If a wormhole does not experience weird gravitational anomalies/or any other forms of extreme energy sources, than the passage of time is totally unnafected, as time would actually flow through the wormhole as it would space - after all, wormholes are just shortcuts in space. If you move through it, it must have space - so it is supsceptible to time passing. (Spacetime).

If the wormhole crosses universes, and is not under any outside interfering energy/gravitational influences, and the rate of timeflow in eahc universe is different, then you would experience the space time flow of the universe that the wormtale was caused in. This would continue until you reached the other end. The difference in time flows would create a time disturbance, resulting in you going through differing rates of time until the time flow settles. You wouldn't notice anything, but an outsider observing you would.

I think that covers all the scenarios. If it doesn't PM me and I'll attempt to explain further.