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View Full Version : Yudkowsky drops his mask


NoxedSalvation
08-26-2011, 05:23 AM
While I realize that many people here on DLP don't want to read another word about MoR and its author I think this news is relevant enough to post it anyway.

Here a quote from the authors note of the newest MoR chapter:


The Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence, the nonprofit I work at, is currently running a Summer Challenge to tide us over until the Singularity Summit in October (Oct 15-16 in New York, ticket prices go up by $100 after September starts). The Summer Challenge grant will double up to $125,000 in donations, ends at the end of August, and is currently up to only $39,000 which is somewhat worrying. I hadn't meant to do anything like this, but:


I will release completed chapters at a pace of one every 6 days, or one every 5 days after the SIAI's Summer Challenge reaches $50,000, or one every 4 days after the Summer Challenge reaches $75,000, or one every 3 days if the Summer Challenge is completed. Remember, the Summer Challenge has until the end of August, after that the pace will be set. (Just some slight encouragement for donors reading this fic to get around to donating sooner rather than later.) A link to the Challenge and the Summit can be found in the profile page, or Google "summer singularity challenge" and "Singularity Summit" respectively.brothel (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/73/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality)

I stopped reading there and posted this "review":

Well, now you've done it. Making money via MoR and its popularity isn't just a violation of JKRs copyright, it's an absolute DICK move against your own readers. Maybe you should use the rationality you are rightly popularizing with this story in your own RL actions? With the visibility of MoR you can be assured that you will get a massive kick in the butt for this because the concerned parties (JKR, ff.net) will hear about it. You might think you've avoided the problem by promising to publish the chapters anyway -even without any influx of money- but the fact is that you try to get payed for services (posting chapters on a higher rate IS a service) rendered to your readers. It's a pitty that behind your mask of benovelent 21st century proponent of Enlightenment you seem to have planned this moment for a long time. Or how do you explain the fact that all of a sudden you have a bunch of chapters ready to post if "only" your readers give you enough dough? Shame on you Mr. Yudkowsky.Any comments beyond "Why did you read that trash anyway, dipshit?" or "Told you so!"?

T3t
08-26-2011, 05:28 AM
Despite my enjoyment of his story, I agree that this is unscrupulous. He isn't profiting directly, but he's enabling his employer to pay his salary. In all seriousness, this seems like an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Taure
08-26-2011, 05:53 AM
Ahahahahaha here cometh the Cease and Desist letters. Smackdown ahoy!

To help this along, feel free to submit a report to Warner Brothers legal.

http://www.warnerbros.com/main/help/customer_service.html

Just select "Legal" from the drop-down list.

Here (http://i.imgur.com/cCKh1.jpg) is a screenshot of the author's note - including the announcement that he has already raised $60,000 - in case he changes it.

Warlocke
08-26-2011, 06:01 AM
I'm cringing in ways of which I had not known I was capable.

I do that whenever fanfic gets dragged in front of people who have whole stables full of flesh-eating lawyers.

What is the sound of one face, palming? :facepalm

Carmine
08-26-2011, 06:02 AM
To be honest, we really shouldn't be surprised that he's done this. I mean, he is arrogant enough to presume that he should be paid for writing MoR, rather than that he should pay us to have to read it.

Taure
08-26-2011, 06:05 AM
What I really don't get is how he doesn't seem to have even thought that doing this could be considered illegal, and that earning $125,000 from copyright infringement might piss WB off.

Speakers
08-26-2011, 06:12 AM
Ah well, I'll go against the DLP wave and say that that's quite an achievement for a fanfic author if he really did generate that much in that small a time. Besides, I can think of plenty of less deserving authors with thousands of reviews on FFN.

Regardless, getting donations for a non-profit that he's the co-founder of is hardly cause for outrage.

Legally, I'm not sure. Entirely possible that the non-profit/donation thing safeguards him from any prosecution.

NoxedSalvation
08-26-2011, 06:25 AM
Regardless, getting donations for a non-profit that he's the co-founder of is hardly cause for outrage.


WTF? Here is a guy who changes the "holding updates hostage" stupidity of shitheaded ff authors into a money making sheme and you are OK with that?

Taure
08-26-2011, 06:25 AM
It's worth getting outraged about if for no other reason that it potentially ruins fanfiction for the rest of us. Fanfiction is permitted to exist by copyright holders on the caveat that it isn't done for profit. The moment fanfiction authors start profiting from their work is the moment previously generous copyright holders start thinking about forcing FF.Net to shut down their section of the website.

With that in mind, the fanfiction community has a responsibility to police itself so as to make sure the community as a whole does not suffer from the hubris of one author.

Which is why I encourage you to report him. WB needs to see right from the start that this isn't about fanfiction as a whole - it's just about one author.

Plus, Yudkowsky is a dick.

Here's hoping that we'll soon be able to add a new section to his highly censored Wikipedia page: "Warner Bros, JK Rowling, Scholastic Books et. al. vs. Yudkowsky".

At least he'll finally be notable.

Jibril
08-26-2011, 07:09 AM
Here's hopping that the legal department of Warner Bros will legally rape the shit out of Yudkowsky.
Or that the ff.net staff will just pull down his story and ban him from the site.

Grinning Lizard
08-26-2011, 07:12 AM
Yeah, report on ff.net, not to Warner. Those people are hard cunts, and would delight in crushing online fanfic one afternoon. And I'm not joking.

Dark Minion
08-26-2011, 07:27 AM
It's worth getting outraged about if for no other reason that it potentially ruins fanfiction for the rest of us. Fanfiction is permitted to exist by copyright holders on the caveat that it isn't done for profit. The moment fanfiction authors start profiting from their work is the moment previously generous copyright holders start thinking about forcing FF.Net to shut down their section of the website.



That's also my main problem I have with his move. If people are stupid enough to donate for his case, then be it. But it draws unnecessary attention on the whole fanfiction community.

Because of that I also agree with Lizzy to report it on ff.net instead to WB.

Taure
08-26-2011, 07:31 AM
But WB would shaft him so much more...

You're probably right. Still, my dislike of Yudkowsky is a strong motivating factor in wanting to see his ass get sued.

Jericho
08-26-2011, 08:10 AM
Am I the only one who has never heard of this guy and his story?
I'm a bit surprised I missed a massive story that many at DLP seem to know about.

Anyway, hopefully this won't be any danger to fanfiction and will be seen as a single douche being 'douchelike', not an indicator of the rest of the community.

There shoud be no danger but then again lawyers are likely to be involved soon so who knows how this will end up.

Perspicacity
08-26-2011, 08:34 AM
Rofl. People still read this story?

While it's fashionable to bash Yudkowsky because the guy's online persona oozes smug douchnozzelry, credit him for words that were carefully chosen. So far, I don't think he's doing anything worse than what he's done in the past (essentially using MoR as an advertisement for his employer, using it to bring eyeballs to their website, etc.) or, for that matter, than what a number of us who participated in Jim's last anthology did when we mentioned or linked to the commercial work in our fanfiction.net pages/author's notes.

That could change, however, if he moves from "encouragement" to hostage-taking or uses somewhat different language to describe his fundraising and its connection to his for-free writing hobby. One thing he is sure to do is turn off his readers. Fanfiction readers are a fickle lot; they have shown repeatedly that they have little tolerance for folks peddling this kind of dross and that it's incredibly easy to stop following a story once you start to dislike the writer. (You wouldn't know it by just looking at review counts, but I'd be willing to bet that his story is getting fewer hits/chapter than it did early on and this could be Yudkowsky's last real chance to cash in on the story's popularity).

In truth, as I watch my own ability to conduct scientific research wane next year (the lack of funding dollars to be had in our new austerity means belt-tightening all around, so I'll be spending more than half my time doing defense-related stuff that isn't publishable), I feel for the guy. From the sound of it, his Institute may go under financially and they're getting desperate. If it does, Yudkowsky, with virtually no marketable skills as an academic and a principled disdain for publication, academic credentials, etc., may find it difficult to find employment doing anything scientific or technical, much less continuing the kinds of explorations he's doing now for his day job.

Perhaps his best bet (and, Yudkowsky, we both know that your Google alerts inform you when you or your story is mentioned, so consider this my advice to you, friend) if that were to occur would be to try to find a university willing to accept him as a grad student and wait out the recession sipping lattes and ogling fine specimens of the gender he prefers. At the very least, he'll be able to maintain a semblance of academic freedom and along the way pick up some of the academic credentials he's missing. Even Eric Drexler, nanotech visionary, found he had to go back to get his Ph.D.

aaltwal
08-26-2011, 10:06 AM
I believe we should distance ourselves from this author as much as possible, and that this thread should never have been created. Yes, we made our point, and he's still a dick. His followers may start bringing dlp's name on this and bring publicity on this stunt.

Fatality
08-26-2011, 10:16 AM
Rofl. People still read this story?
(and, Yudkowsky, we both know that your Google alerts inform you when you or your story is mentioned, so consider this my advice to you, friend)
You can do that? That's pretty cool - although, if it works like I presume it does, no one has actually said the name of the story in this thread, simply referred to it as "MoR".

OT: I'm not sure whether he is an idiot or a genius. I'll make up my mind when he either gets in legal trouble or gets away with it. Either way, I hope the acts of one douche doesn't hurt the rest of us.

NoxedSalvation
08-26-2011, 10:17 AM
I believe we should distance ourselves from this author as much as possible, and that this thread should never have been created. Yes, we made our point, and he's still a dick. His followers may start bringing dlp's name on this and bring publicity on this stunt.

What do you mean exactly? Why would DLP face any form of backlash over this?:confused:

Taure
08-26-2011, 10:26 AM
There are already reviewers on the latest chapter talking about DLP.

What's amusing is that we (me) are being called "curtain-twitchers" and yet clearly they're doing the same to DLP.

Red Aviary
08-26-2011, 10:28 AM
Abuse report to FFN sent. Hopefully they actually listen to it. :|

Jormungandr
08-26-2011, 10:44 AM
Noxed: isn't it obvious? Most of ff.net, which is a huge chunk of the fan fiction community, dislikes DLP, for obvious reasons.

Taure
08-26-2011, 10:47 AM
While it's fashionable to bash Yudkowsky because the guy's online persona oozes smug douchnozzelry, credit him for words that were carefully chosen. So far, I don't think he's doing anything worse than what he's done in the past (essentially using MoR as an advertisement for his employer, using it to bring eyeballs to their website, etc.) or, for that matter, than what a number of us who participated in Jim's last anthology did when we mentioned or linked to the commercial work in our fanfiction.net pages/author's notes.

That could change, however, if he moves from "encouragement" to hostage-taking or uses somewhat different language to describe his fundraising and its connection to his for-free writing hobby. One thing he is sure to do is turn off his readers. Fanfiction readers are a fickle lot; they have shown repeatedly that they have little tolerance for folks peddling this kind of dross and that it's incredibly easy to stop following a story once you start to dislike the writer. (You wouldn't know it by just looking at review counts, but I'd be willing to bet that his story is getting fewer hits/chapter than it did early on and this could be Yudkowsky's last real chance to cash in on the story's popularity).

Hmm... I dunno, he's essentially putting a faster update rate up for sale. That seems to be a step further than advertising. It boils down to "give me money and you'll get more chapters". Think of it this way:

Imagine if I got the Harry Potter books and started emailing you a chapter once a week.

Imagine that after a year I send you an email along with that week's chapter.

The email says "if you give me X money, I'll send you 2 chapters a week instead".

Is this copyright infringement? Yes.

Selling a faster rate of release of another person's copyrighted materials is still copyright infringement.

Of course, if we're honest it doesn't take profiteering to make you earn a Cease and Desist. Harry Potter copyright holders could shut any of us down at any time. We're all in breech of copyright already. So legally, he's already vulnerable. But asking for money does seem to be very much an open invitation to WB, JKR, etc. to send him some strongly worded letters.

And even if they don't it's still far beyond FF.Net rules. I don't know if FF.Net will take the story down. The story's popularity makes it less likely, but it's still possible. Popular stories have been taken down in the past, and for a lot less reason. If the story had a smaller following something like this would be taken down in an instant.

Jormungandr
08-26-2011, 11:05 AM
If any one of the copyright holders pressures FF.net in any sort of way, the people running FF.net will collapse faster than a house of wet playing cards. They won't risk being sued, or having any legal action that could complicate things in the future thrust upon them, and if they have to shaft a popular story and/or ban a popular author to do so, they'll gladly do it.

In the grand scheme of things, even a popular story like MoR isn't even a fingernail clipping compared to the site as a whole. It wouldn't be a great loss.

If they, the copyright holder(s) go after the author himself instead of FF.net, he'll still have to pull the story and stop writing it - otherwise, they'll bring it to court. And it's pretty much a guarantee that he would lose.

Either way, this move of his (despite what certain fanatical/blind readers such as 'admiralskippy' on FF.net say) is just about as safe as a blind man running into a Bouncing Betty minefield would be.

It doesn't take anyone with a fancy degree or diploma to see that this is going to go pear shaped on him, fast.

Hashasheen
08-26-2011, 11:08 AM
Noxed: isn't it obvious? Most of ff.net, which is a huge chunk of the fan fiction community, dislikes DLP, for obvious reasons.
Because they're jealous of our inherent creativity and ability?

Daidalos
08-26-2011, 11:13 AM
This was exceptionally foolish, as other have already pointed out. What baffles me is why he didn't realise what the possible consequences could be and what reactions this would engender. The first thing that struck me when I read his pledge promising to update faster if more contributions were made was that it was stupid and wouldn't go over well. Even if people start giving his foundation a lot of money as a consequence of this -- something that I doubt will happen -- the risk of a lawsuit (or even the threat of one) seems to be far too serious. From what we can see, his foundation isn't particularly rich to begin with, so it probably couldn't weather any legal action from the big players that hold the copyright.

I can't work up any anger over this, however, just wonder at whatever possessed him to do it in the first place (except, of course, to see the $$$ roll in).

NoxedSalvation
08-26-2011, 11:16 AM
Noxed: isn't it obvious? Most of ff.net, which is a huge chunk of the fan fiction community, dislikes DLP, for obvious reasons.

And that's new exactly how? Why would anyone here consider it bad if even larger hordes of ff claqueurs hate on us?

Jormungandr
08-26-2011, 11:22 AM
To be honest, and this is not coming from any sort of 'DLP Bias' that many MoR fanatics think that we, as a whole have, but from someone who is just looking in from 'the outside' - I think it's because he's arrogant enough to believe that he can pull this off, has a type of superiority complex, and he's 'grown too big for his boots'.

Oh, Lord - I can just imagine the masses at FF.net flaming my name right now for posting my opinion. Oh, the humanity! :facepalm

Iztiak
08-26-2011, 12:16 PM
At least one is flaming Taure, lol.

At any rate, why did we dislike this story, again? I've forgotten it. Reported for the copyright issues, but can't remember that original issue that got the thread closed.

Red Aviary
08-26-2011, 12:19 PM
At any rate, why did we dislike this story, again? I've forgotten it. Reported for the copyright issues, but can't remember that original issue that got the thread closed.

I'd never even heard of this story until about two weeks ago. I thought all the science and philosophy junk he crammed in there was extremely pretentious. And that's only the first five-ish chapters. It probably gets worse.

Usually I'm pretty lenient when I judge fics, so I can't imagine the harsher members of DLP were very fond of it, to say the least.

Taure
08-26-2011, 12:32 PM
At any rate, why did we dislike this story, again?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I disliked it because it isn't a story but rather a parable.

See my full review (https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=381304&postcount=483).

JWH
08-26-2011, 12:35 PM
Abuse report sent at ff.net.

I didn't really like this guy before, but if he ruins HP fanfiction for all of us, fuck him with a blunt stick.

Plothole
08-26-2011, 12:43 PM
I honestly can't understand why this is such a popular story. It has all of the flaws mentioned in Taure's review, yet it is one of the most reviewed stories on ff.net. Does it make the average person feel smarter than they actually are when reading it?
I've tried getting through the story, but some parts are just so ill-conceived, ridiculous, and plagiarized, it's not even funny.

Iztiak
08-26-2011, 12:44 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I disliked it because it isn't a story but rather a parable.

See my full review (https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=381304&postcount=483).

Ah, I should have clarified. What I meant to ask is why this story in particular was hated, as opposed to just being trashed and ignored like so many other terrible stories.

But thanks, the top of that review of yours mentioned his rage filled authors notes, and then I remembered why. :P

Grinning Lizard
08-26-2011, 01:07 PM
For the record, I'm not in the 'try and get the story pulled' crowd. I won't go into the spiel, but ultimately I couldn't give a shit about either the story or the hatred of the story. Can we please not make this into some organised boycott or torrent of abuse (which is why the first thread was shut down) and, if you're reporting abuse, make it an actual report? I give a shit about this because this could potentially harm fanfiction, not because it's an opportunity to get one over on the guy. The moment ff.net sees scores of the DLP horde and puts two and two together is the moment it looks less like a serious-shit-alarm-bells scenario and more like an old, mutual dislike flaring up, and is thus ignored.

Oruma
08-26-2011, 02:15 PM
Ah, I should have clarified. What I meant to ask is why this story in particular was hated, as opposed to just being trashed and ignored like so many other terrible stories.

But thanks, the top of that review of yours mentioned his rage filled authors notes, and then I remembered why. :P
Because this story isn't just hated, it's also loved by many other DLPers. It's controversial and polarizing. It has some very funny bits, very thought provoking parts, and rage-inducing segments.
Just look it up (or just following Taure's post to its originating thread), you can see there's 42 pages' worth of discussion.

Personally, I like most parts of the story, but there are cringe-worthy moments and I disagree with his chapter-for-donation move.

Blaise
08-26-2011, 02:25 PM
EDIT: GL's right. Be organized about it, and follow the right channels (i.e. no reviews, actual reports).

Shouldabeenadog
08-26-2011, 02:29 PM
GL, I concur with the idea that we need to protect fanfiction here.

Problem: I have no idea what to do to help. What is the proper course of action?

Klael
08-26-2011, 02:48 PM
Fuck it, I reported it to both FF.net AND Warner Brothers. I want FF.Net to remove his account, and because I'm a bastard, I want Warner Brothers to sue his organization for what he's done here. And by "what he's done here," I mean "write MoR."

Grinning Lizard
08-26-2011, 02:52 PM
Awesome. Way to go, man.

Silens Cursor
08-26-2011, 02:52 PM
At any rate, why did we dislike this story, again?

One of the reasons the thread got locked in the first place (and I earned the warnings I deserved for this whole debacle) was because I was a pretentious douche. I read his story, dropped off a review, and suggested that it wouldn't be a bad thing (considering he's a reasonably prolific author with a lot of publicity) for him to come to DLP. I mean, just because his story is polarizing doesn't mean automatically that it's awful.

Well, he replied with a certain degree of condescension that I found intolerable in his reply and subsequent PMs, and thinking that he slandered DLP, in a fit of pique I posted everything to the main thread (which ranks up with mixing Amaretto and bourbon, stealing the girlfriend of the football team captain at a dance at their school, and writing and performing an acapella rap about glaciers for my geography class as some of the most idiotic things I've ever done). And then the situation escalated, we got a lot of traffic, and when I had been restored to my senses, I realized that a.) DLP needs absolutely nobody to defend it, b.) if it did, I certainly wasn't the one to take that role, and c.) it was pretty damn stupid of me to post private PMs to the main boards to start shit.

So yeah, everything spiralling out of control is partially my fault, and I'll rightfully accept the blame for that. Come to think of it, that (and story-whoring) are probably the main reasons some members of DLP dislike me to this day - and frankly, they're in the right there.

However, I still hold that the story isn't very good at all, and that this recent stunt only confirms my opinions of the author. I can only hope that this doesn't ruin fanfic for the rest of us.

Perspicacity
08-26-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that the MoR thread was heading for death anyway, since we were spending about 95% of the time commenting on his author's comments and 5% on the story itself. (It was an even worse signal-to-noise than The Santi's story thread is now or Miranda Flairgold's or Oblong/Fettucini/SerpentSannin/MrJoe's story threads back in their day).

For me, one of the most entertaining moments on DLP during the last few years was when the author came on and trolled (https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=405216&postcount=630) the DLP thread about his story and the response was, effectively, "Meh," and everyone essentially ignored him and went back to what we were talking about.

mknote
08-26-2011, 04:19 PM
Everyone on DLP knows that I like MoR: I think it's a well written account of a smart!Harry. Still, this does seem like a bit of a dick move. He's not really threatening to not update - he's just saying he'll update faster - but this type of thing gives fanfiction a bad name. Personally, I think there's a big chance of MoR getting taken down over this, and I really don't see the need for it.

Here's to hoping everything turns out okay.

Greener
08-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Personally, I hope that this is taken care of strictly within FF.net... I'd rather not set the precedent of a production company going after a fanfiction writer.

Something like them demanding that all works based on their copyrighted assets be taken down would suck... mind you this is an extreme case, but you never know where things might lead if you tickle the dragon.

Blaise
08-26-2011, 04:26 PM
It's an extreme case, but it'd be easy as shit to execute. Any author, at any time, just has to say the word "No" and ff.net will pull it. Done.

Palindrome
08-26-2011, 04:32 PM
I'd much rather see Yudkowsky see sense and remove his request himself before anything that upsets a lot of people happens like having his story taken down. The more attention this matter gets the worse the situation becomes - no one wants to see fanfiction get a worse reputation than the one it is already struggling to throw off, and this guy's story has significant popularity to accomplish that if things go sour.

Rym
08-26-2011, 04:35 PM
Yet another thread devoted to Yudkowsky on DLP.

Le sigh.

Vir
08-26-2011, 04:37 PM
The best part is that if he doesn't keep his word, and the chapters are even a day late, everyone can sue him, even those who didn't donate, because of the contract which he created. Hooray.

Rubicon
08-26-2011, 04:46 PM
I'd like to point out that OP only quoted part of the A/N. The real WTF moment is:

Casting for voice parts is ongoing in the Audiobook project, see profile.
HPMOR is now available as an Android app, see A/N.

...really.

NoxedSalvation
08-26-2011, 04:53 PM
@Rubicon I thought this was for free- and the link he posted on his author page is dead anyway.

Fiat
08-26-2011, 05:00 PM
Perhaps his best bet (and, Yudkowsky, we both know that your Google alerts inform you when you or your story is mentioned, so consider this my advice to you, friend) if that were to occur would be to try to find a university willing to accept him as a grad student and wait out the recession sipping lattes and ogling fine specimens of the gender he prefers. At the very least, he'll be able to maintain a semblance of academic freedom and along the way pick up some of the academic credentials he's missing. Even Eric Drexler, nanotech visionary, found he had to go back to get his Ph.D.I'd assume that he'd need a highschool diploma/a bachelor's degree to go to grad school.

However, as you're the one with the PhD, I'm inclined to assume that you probably know better than I do about this topic.

On Topic: Christ, why do we need another topic about Yudkowsky on DLP? He's a shitty author with a needlessly apocalyptic view of any Singularity that he's not behind the wheel of. I appreciate all the publicity he's brought to transhumanism but does he really deserve any more attention?

Sol
08-26-2011, 05:05 PM
I'd much rather see Yudkowsky see sense and remove his request himself before anything that upsets a lot of people happens like having his story taken down. The more attention this matter gets the worse the situation becomes - no one wants to see fanfiction get a worse reputation than the one it is already struggling to throw off, and this guy's story has significant popularity to accomplish that if things go sour.

No dice. If it's true that MoR has already made $60,000 in "donations" for this Singularity bit then simply removing the request won't do anything. People have already paid for the service. And if Rowling's lawyers are true to form, this is the kind of thing they come down on hard.

In fact, with Pottermore releasing soon, I don't think Yud's-his-face could have picked a worse time to pull a stunt like this from a fanfiction perspective. Coming down hard on fanfiction and other H.P. related sites would leave Pottermore essentially alone as an online source for H.P. related escapism and world-building.

Klael
08-26-2011, 05:20 PM
Coming down hard on fanfiction and other H.P. related sites would leave Pottermore essentially alone as an online source for H.P. related escapism and world-building.

That idea is terrifying in its own regard. You mean to tell me that we'll have no salvation from the cringe-worthy Slytherin!Merlin and other horrible canon add-ons Rowling comes up with?

I genuinely hope that they don't use this as an excuse (as if they'd need one, in a legal sense) to do anything other than censor Yudkowsky and pull his fanfic. Let's hope that someone doesn't come up with the brilliant idea that this is the rationale for declaring war on all fanfiction. I agree that it seems unlikely, but companies can be notoriously overreactive about that sort of thing and I wouldn't be shocked--though I would be surprised--if the wrath of WB or Rowling did more damage than just to Yud's account.

Warlocke
08-26-2011, 06:10 PM
...really.I've seen a story with MP3 commentary, so why not?

If I had the talent, I'd draw or animate my stories. I think any author would, given the time and talent.

Rubicon
08-26-2011, 06:37 PM
@Warlocke: Meant the android app. I just found it crazy / amusing that someone took the time to develop one just for MoR. :p

OT:

I would think there's a clear difference between making money from fanfic, like selling printed copies, and saying, "I'm posting this one way or the other but you'll get it sooner if you donate to XYZ charity that I work for." (Actually, he doesn't even phrase it like that -- he avoids explicitly asking for donations from his readers.)

At the very least, the already ambiguous legal situation of fanfic is even less clear in this situation.

And, part of me wonders whether Yudkowsky might actually appreciate the attention that a lawsuit from Rowling would bring the Singularity Institute and his friendly AI research.

Stalin's Pipe Organs
08-26-2011, 06:42 PM
What exactly is so wrong about us taking the time to bash LessWrong?

What is so bad about retaliating after he talked shit about DLP?

Now Silens is accepting blame for starting the bash fest in the MoR thread. What the fuck is up with that? Yudkowsky, the little pretentious shit he is, deserves to be verbally attacked. The MoR thread was one of the best DLP threads for the fact that we showed the fanfiction community who is BOSS. Sure a bunch of 14 year old fangirls might dislike us and talk shit about us. Well isn't that part of what DLP is about? It used to bring us great joy to know that we're so hated by the morons of the HP community.

What's with these pacifist views that are being propagated by GL?

It's fun to bash deserving LessWrong-like noobs on DLP.

Portus
08-26-2011, 06:44 PM
If I had the talent, I'd draw or animate my stories. I think any author would, given the time and talent.

What stories, motherfucker? As funny as you are in other people's threads, I think you could make some lulzy crack!fics, if only you'd buckle down.

And fuck you for making me post in this godforsaken thread. I haven't read the first word of this story and have no plans to, so I couldn't care less except that it's generated three pages of posts in the first day, for what's apparently a shit story by a rank amateur, and a dick one at that.

Rubicon
08-26-2011, 06:59 PM
What exactly is so wrong about us taking the time to bash LessWrong?

What is so bad about retaliating after he talked shit about DLP?

I feel like that horse is pretty dead, dude. After the zillionth page it starts seeming like an obsession, rather than a righteous stand against bad fanfic.

Luckylee
08-26-2011, 07:25 PM
Well I just went to look at the note and he has already took it down.

Taure
08-26-2011, 07:30 PM
It's still there for me. Europe server may be taking time to update. But I have a screenshot anyway XD

Regarding what is being discussed ITT:

1. I think people who think that the whole HP section of FF.Net would be taken down for this are paranoid. HP copyright holders have enforced their copyright on multiple occasions. On none of those occasions did they decide to take out all fanfic. I don't see why they would this time.

2. Even if it was a significant risk, it's still moral cowardice to back out of condemning something you think is wrong (profiteering from fanfic) out of fear that the reprisals may affect you.

(Also, even if FF.Net were taken down, DLP would go on. Most of our content is internally generated these days, and we have PC as a perfectly capable archive site).

Blaise
08-26-2011, 07:49 PM
1. They'd take it down for the same reason we're shitting on this kid - he's trying to get money in exchange for chapters in a 'verse he doesnt own.

2. Yuck Wang* is still a fuckface, but GL rightly pointed out that this should only look like exactly what it is (TOS violation) as opposed to DLP slinging shit at an author they don't like. Ideally this thread would disappear, but I don't need to let a thread know that I filed my complaint to ff.net to distance myself from any apparent cowardice on my part.


*Autocorrect on the phone changed the author's name to "Yuck Wang." Fiiiiine by me XD

Taure
08-26-2011, 08:04 PM
*Autocorrect on the phone changed the author's name to "Yuck Wang." Fiiiiine by me XD

Know how I know you're gay?

At some time in the past you have written "yuck wang" on your phone.

Blaise
08-26-2011, 08:08 PM
Know how I know you're gay?

"Yuck Wang" means something to you (as opposed to assuming I've simply typed "yuck" and "Wang" on separate occasions) - and that something has gay connotations.

Taure
08-26-2011, 08:11 PM
"Yuck, wang!"

As in, "Oh no, Joe, your wang is yucky!"

:p

Sin Saiori
08-26-2011, 08:33 PM
I'll send ff.net a report after dinner.

Also, wouldn't it be better to contact Rowling (the person who has final say in what can and can't be written concerning her works) instead of WB (who's lookin' for someone to rape)? If WB does get contacted extensively, chances are they'd go after the community as a whole, regardless of if they have already tried or planned to in the future. A single email from Rowling would get the story pulled, his account banned, and he'd probably feel even worse than shit for getting smacked down by the original author.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Zeitgeist
08-26-2011, 08:57 PM
Fuck it, I reported it to both FF.net AND Warner Brothers. I want FF.Net to remove his account, and because I'm a bastard, I want Warner Brothers to sue his organization for what he's done here. And by "what he's done here," I mean "write MoR."

Hold your horses, and please listen to Grinning (https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?p=484638#post484638) Lizard (https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?p=484715#post484715). I dislike MoR for its rather ridiculous interpretation of Harry, but I really don't think succumbing to vehemence is the best option. Violent reports/PMs won't solve anything, since the ff.net admins probably want to wipe their hands clean of any shitstorms. Alerting WB is only worse. I do not want a repeat of Anne Rice.

Think about this rationally (xD) and restrain yourself. I repeat: we don't want another Anne Rice, or a variant thereof. The best option atm seems to be sending carefully worded reports to ff.net, not reviews. We can proceed from there.

Perspicacity
08-26-2011, 09:33 PM
I'd assume that he'd need a highschool diploma/a bachelor's degree to go to grad school.

However, as you're the one with the PhD, I'm inclined to assume that you probably know better than I do about this topic.

It's not unheard of for people with nontraditional schooling to matriculate into graduate school without a high school diploma and/or baccalaureate degree. When I was in physics grad school, I was good friends with two people who had a similar background, both wunderkinds who didn't fit the traditional scholastic mold. Stephen Wolfram (MacArthur Award winner, inventor of the Mathematica software, and Professor of Physics at Caltech at the ripe old age of 20) is perhaps the most famous example in recent years. He and my thesis advisor were classmates at Oxford before Wolfram bailed sans Baccalaureate to enter the graduate program in particle physics at Caltech.

Yudkowsky is no Wolfram (who is?) but he wouldn't exactly be forging new ground were he to go straight to grad school. While I might find him a distasteful personality and while I might doubt that he's anywhere near as smart as he thinks he is*, I won't deny that Yudkowsky is brilliant nonetheless and fully capable of graduate study.

* Something I might suffer from as well.

Grinning Lizard
08-26-2011, 09:41 PM
What's with these pacifist views that are being propagated by GL?

It's fun to bash deserving LessWrong-like noobs on DLP.

You can read virtually every other post I've ever made to understand how little I'm a pacifist. And I think you missed the 'think about more than yourself' part of everything I have posted thus far in this thread.

Bash him all you like. This is somewhat a seperate issue.

Swimdraconian
08-26-2011, 11:15 PM
Copy pasted directly from his profile:

Update 8/26:

Please ignore all the reviews suggesting that my offer to do the moral equivalent of shaving my head on Youtube if a charity meets its donation goals will bring about the downfall of all Harry Potter fandom everywhere. This is not a real backlash. It is being coordinated by a troll forum called Dark Lord Potter, whose shtick is pretending to be snooty exclusive Harry Potter fanfiction critics (yes, really), and which hates hates hates MoR for being higher-status than them. Helping a charity would predictably set them off. And while I do thank everyone who jumped to this fic's defense, having these sorts of arguments in the reviews is not the way I want to increase my review count. Thanks to Dark Lord Potter for helping to keep this fic #1, though.

(Dark Lord Potter specializes in concern trolling, messages which start out looking serious and helpful to lure you into the start of the argument. Be extremely wary if you get a private message suggesting that your fic has promise but could benefit from the critique at Dark Lord Potter. I got one of those early on and then later discovered that the sender, Silens Cursor, had been bragging in the DLP chatrooms about how he was going to bring me to the DLP forums so they could all bash on MoR and crush my soul. Yes, really.)

Needless to say if anyone at Fanfiction.net or JKR & co. does object, the request will be immediately removed with apologies, but I see nothing in FF's guidelines or any published comment by JKR which indicates that it should be prohibited. JKR said no commercialization, which if it doesn't prohibit FF running ads, certainly doesn't prohibit accelerating a publication schedule if a charity meets donation goals. FF's Community Guidelines say nothing on the subject at all.

Jesusmotherfukkinchrist, he's like a self-opening pinata.

I am honestly at a loss for words. Crazy comes to mind. Deluded and narcissistic also pop up. But somehow I don't think they quite describe the level of bugfuck-insane Fantasyville this guy lives in. It's like he skews everything in his mind so that he's cast as the victim.

Never read his story, have no inclination to read his story, and I certainly want nothing to do with MoR after reading this.

Edit for Sesc: :P

Edit 2: If this is his version of rationality, I'd wager his grasp of the real world is tenuous at best. That's not exactly a glowing recommendation of his own work.

Sesc
08-26-2011, 11:18 PM
LessWrong felt he needed to review his own story.

Please ignore all the reviews suggesting that my offer to do the equivalent of shaving my head on Youtube if a charity meets its donation goals will bring about the downfall of all Harry Potter fandom everywhere. These reviews are from a troll forum called Dark Lord Potter, whose shtick is pretending to be snooty exclusive Harry Potter fanfiction critics (yes, really), and which hates hates hates MoR for being higher-status than them. Helping a charity would predictably set them off.

(Dark Lord Potter specializes in concern trolling, messages which start out looking serious and helpful to lure you into the start of the argument. Be extremely wary if you get a polite-looking private message suggesting that your fic has promise but could benefit from the critique at Dark Lord Potter. I got one of those early on and then later discovered that the sender, Silens Cursor, had been bragging in the DLP chatrooms about how he was going to bring me to the DLP forums so they could all bash on MoR and crush my soul. Yes, really.)

I'm grateful to everyone who jumped to this fic's defense - thank you - but your previous defenses should be enough, and having these sorts of arguments in the reviews is not the way I want to increase my review count. Thanks to Dark Lord Potter for helping to keep this fic #1, though.

(Needless to say if anyone at Fanfiction dot net or JKR & co. does object, the request will be immediately removed with apologies, but I see nothing in FF's guidelines or any published comment by JKR which indicates that it should be prohibited. JKR said no commercialization, which if it doesn't prohibit FF running ads, certainly doesn't prohibit accelerating a publication schedule if a charity meets donation goals. FF's Community Guidelines say nothing on the subject at all.)

There are six mentions of DLP or Dark Lord Potter within the four paragraphs. Thanks awfully for the advertisement. And now I'll report the story for no other reason than that this is one of the more funny things we've done lately.

Edit: Swim, you ninja :D

T3t
08-26-2011, 11:23 PM
Wow, that's hilarious. Anybody who cares to come over here and look will see that he's misinterpreting at best and outright lying at worst; we're hardly conducting a smear campaign and his institute is not a "charity".

And oh yes, DLP is apparently the root of all evil - seriously, "concern trolling"? What a retarded accusation. Why would we want to bother with bad fics in the first place? That's just beyond stupid.

Atomicwalrus
08-26-2011, 11:25 PM
I don't no how he can sit on his high horse and talk about how were bad mouthing him for helping a charity, I mean its not like its trying to cure cancer its a bunch of nerds sitting around talking about how cool it would be if we had AI.

T3t
08-26-2011, 11:34 PM
Is it really a charity? I thought it was just a non-profit, and one is not the other.

Sesc
08-26-2011, 11:36 PM
The funny thing is that LessWrong couldn't be More Wrong. The TOS of FF.net clearly states that

D. You agree not to use the Website for any commercial use, without the prior written authorization of FanFiction.Net. Prohibited commercial uses include any of the following actions taken without FanFiction.Net's express approval:


sale of access to the Website or its related services on another website;
use of the Website or its related services for the primary purpose of gaining advertising or subscription revenue;
the sale of advertising, on the FanFiction.Net website or any third-party website, targeted to the content of specific User Submissions or FanFiction.Net content;
and any use of the Website or its related services that FanFiction.Net finds, in its sole discretion, to use FanFiction.Net's resources or User Submissions with the effect of competing with or displacing the market for FanFiction.Net, FanFiction.Net content, or its User Submissions.


I don't see how that leaves any wiggle room at all for what he does.

Schrodinger
08-26-2011, 11:37 PM
I don't know how he can sit on his high horse and talk about how we're bad mouthing him for helping a charity, I mean it's not like it's trying to cure cancer it's a bunch of nerds sitting around talking about how cool it would be if we had AI.
Ahem.

In any case, I just don't see how bashing him helps anyone: clearly, he's the kind of person who believes any attention is good attention. Thus, the only way to really do anything to him is to ignore him: let the voices of superiority in his head keep him company.

Atomicwalrus
08-26-2011, 11:38 PM
I think it might be able to get away with being called a charity because it gives away grant money.

T3t
08-26-2011, 11:40 PM
There are legal definitions for a charity, and even if it is (which I doubt) I'm not sure it gives him license to do this anyways.

Klael
08-26-2011, 11:44 PM
Ahem.

In any case, I just don't see how bashing him helps anyone: clearly, he's the kind of person who believes any attention is good attention. Thus, the only way to really do anything to him is to ignore him: let the voices of superiority in his head keep him company.

I think that the entire internet is helped by the removal of his stupid ass and anything he's touched from the history books.

Jormungandr
08-26-2011, 11:45 PM
...I actually feel sort of sorry for him.

He must have some serious mental health issues if he has a superiority complex that large.

Fatality
08-26-2011, 11:55 PM
There are legal definitions for a charity, and even if it is (which I doubt) I'm not sure it gives him license to do this anyways.
This. I couldn't just pirate a few thousand copies of a movie and start selling under the excuse that it was for a Charity.

And what he is doing is easily defined as a service. He is writing more and faster for money. I don't think there should be any debate about whether this is illegal or not.

As to why FF.net is allowed to post ads, does anyone know why? I'd assume it's because they're technically not making money from other people's copyrights, just from people visiting their site. I wouldn't say I know a lot about copyright law though - does anyone know for sure?

T3t
08-27-2011, 12:02 AM
FFN posting ads is pretty iffy, I'm pretty sure they're allowed to make enough to cover their costs for hosting etc, but not to actually profit beyond that. I'm not an expert on IP law though so...

KaiDASH
08-27-2011, 12:12 AM
There's no ads on actual story pages though, is there? Only on profile pages (and similar), so maybe it's ok because of that.

Fiat
08-27-2011, 12:20 AM
Please ignore all the reviews suggesting that my offer to do the equivalent of shaving my head on Youtube if a charity meets its donation goals will bring about the downfall of all Harry Potter fandom everywhere. These reviews are from a troll forum called Dark Lord Potter, whose shtick is pretending to be snooty exclusive Harry Potter fanfiction critics (yes, really), and which hates hates hates MoR for being higher-status than them. Helping a charity would predictably set them off....I have no words.

What the fuck? No one hates Methods of rationality because it's "higher-status than them." They hate it because it's fucking terrible and see no need to coddle the author. More than that, Yudkowsky's Institute is not a fucking charity: It's his own personal non-profit based around his views on AI. It comes much closer to qualifying as an Organized Religion which believes in Friendly AI than a charity. Then again, as he believes that pretty much every singularity scenario but his is apocalyptic, he probably thinks he's saving the world.

His arrogance is fucking overwhelming, but at this point I doubt he's doing anything but trolling.

Fatality
08-27-2011, 12:21 AM
There's no ads on actual story pages though, is there? Only on profile pages (and similar), so maybe it's ok because of that.
I had to disable my ad blocker, but there are indeed ads on story pages.

Schrodinger
08-27-2011, 12:30 AM
I'm not certain, since I was only looking at IP and copyright law for a project (albeit a lengthy, extensively researched project), but I was under the impression that since FFnet is not actually producing any content but is rather displaying it (content that in and of itself is tenuously fair use) they are allowed to use ad revenue as long as the revenue goes back to fund said displaying of content.

Fatality
08-27-2011, 12:39 AM
I'm not certain, since I was only looking at IP and copyright law for a project (albeit a lengthy, extensively researched project), but I was under the impression that since FFnet is not actually producing any content but is rather displaying it (content that in and of itself is tenuously fair use) they are allowed to use ad revenue as long as the revenue goes back to fund said displaying of content.
Ah, okay - that makes sense, and is along the lines of what I was thinking. So does that mean the website makes no profit? And the people who run it pay themselves a salary or something?

This does mean that ads of FF.net don't set any precedent for Less Wrong to use it to make money though, and he's simply talking out of his ass again.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 12:54 AM
Yudkowsky drops his mask

Oh dear, where do I begin? What mask? You make it almost sound like some kind of conspiracy theory. A more accurate title would be Yudkowsky invokes the wrath of DLP, again.

It's a pitty that behind your mask of benovelent 21st century proponent of Enlightenment you seem to have planned this moment for a long time.

It really doesn't look like that at all. To an outsider, it simply looks like his organisation is in need of donations. Assuming that every action must be part of a plot could be considered a form of paranoia.

---------- Post automerged at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------

To be honest, we really shouldn't be surprised that he's done this. I mean, he is arrogant enough to presume that he should be paid for writing MoR

It almost sounds like you made that up entirely.

rather than that he should pay us to have to read it.

Why would he care if anyone from this forum reads it?

Klael
08-27-2011, 12:57 AM
Mind-boggling nonsense

God, you're stupid. What possible reason do you have for coming here? Seriously, did you actually hope to accomplish something, or did you just want to get into a meaningless argument? What's your goal here? Do you even have one? Or do you believe that your mere presence will inspire us to reflect on our past words and actions and reconsider, and allow our logical minds to see the glory that is MoR?

BTW, there's nothing exceptional about his insights. They're 100-level, basic regurgitation of the basics of philosophy of science. There's nothing insightful about them; it's the first five chapters of my Intro to Philosophy of Science class I took sophomore year.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 12:58 AM
WTF? Here is a guy who changes the "holding updates hostage" stupidity of shitheaded ff authors into a money making sheme and you are OK with that?

The updates are being posted regardless.

T3t
08-27-2011, 12:59 AM
Go away.

/tooshort

Sesc
08-27-2011, 12:59 AM
Why would he care if anyone from this forum reads it?

Well, certainly you do.

T3t
08-27-2011, 01:00 AM
And for one thing, he keeps talking about us. He just doesn't want to let it go, whatever stick he has up his ass.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:01 AM
Ahahahahaha here cometh the Cease and Desist letters. Smackdown ahoy!

To help this along, feel free to submit a report to Warner Brothers legal.

So because you personally dislike the story and/or the author, you want it to be taken down? I don't like any of your stories, but that doesn't mean I want them gone. That would make me quite a dick.

What I really don't get is how he doesn't seem to have even thought that doing this could be considered illegal, and that earning $125,000 from copyright infringement might piss WB off.

There isn't a 1:1 relationship between donations received by the institute and money going into his pocket. The institute was already receiving donations before the announcement. The infringing portions of the text are not the source of its popularity - to reach the #1 most reviewed place, it must clearly consist of large amounts of original content.

You're right though, WB are dicks and they are probably pissed off that fanfiction exists in the first place.

It's worth getting outraged about if for no other reason that it potentially ruins fanfiction for the rest of us. Fanfiction is permitted to exist by copyright holders on the caveat that it isn't done for profit. The moment fanfiction authors start profiting from their work is the moment previously generous copyright holders start thinking about forcing FF.Net to shut down their section of the website.

I can see that the fear is taking hold here. We're doomed! 300 words will KILL ALL FANFICTION! What will we do with our lives?!

Plus, Yudkowsky is a dick.

Wanting his story to be taken down just because you don't like it sounds like a bit of a dick move to me.

At least he'll finally be notable.

Notable among DLP? He has already become notable for all the rage he has caused.

If you are referring to "real life" or some other community, he is already significantly more notable than any of us.

scaryisntit
08-27-2011, 01:02 AM
Oh dear, where do I begin? What mask? You make it almost sound like some kind of conspiracy theory. A more accurate title would be Yudkowsky invokes the wrath of DLP, again.



It really doesn't look like that at all. To an outsider, it simply looks like his organisation is in need of donations. Assuming that every action must be part of a plot could be considered a form of paranoia.

---------- Post automerged at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------



It almost sounds like you made that up entirely.



Why would he care if anyone from this forum reads it?

Lol. And it begins.

Dude. The problem is that linking fanfiction and anything to do with money is a big no-no. The dubious legality of fanfiction in general should make it self-evident that, charity or not, ransoming updates times with monetary gain is poor form. Doesn't matter that he will post them anyway, but he'd post them faster if he gets money.

If all he did was mention the charity, fine. That kind of thing isn't exactly a first. But to say that if people donate, he'll update faster? Doesn't exactly showcase an inspirational personality. Rather, it makes him a tool.

Edit: Holy crap, ninja'd by like five people.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:04 AM
Rofl. People still read this story?

It is actually very popular outside this particular community. What is sad is that people here who hate it still read it, seemingly to find more reasons to hate him.

T3t
08-27-2011, 01:05 AM
Do you go cherry picking regularly, David Planes? You seem to be an expert.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:08 AM
Is this copyright infringement? Yes.

All fanfiction infringes copyright. Asking for donations is not necessary to tip the scale.

---------- Post automerged at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

what reactions this would engender.

Reactions? You mean rage among DLP? The story existing at all produces a disturbing amount of rage from this community.

Sesc
08-27-2011, 01:08 AM
If you are referring to "real life" or some other community, he is already significantly more notable than any of us.

Oh, do speak for yourself. If your goal is to have a Wikipedia page you wrote yourself and edit every time someone else adds something you don't like it's fine, but don't project onto the rest of us. I'm aiming a little higher.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:14 AM
To be honest, and this is not coming from any sort of 'DLP Bias' that many MoR fanatics think that we, as a whole have

Not as a whole, but certain vocal members create the appearance of it being a whole.

---------- Post automerged at 15:11 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

science and philosophy junk

Science has contributed a lot more to the world than, say, fantasy.

---------- Post automerged at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

I honestly can't understand why this is such a popular story. It has all of the flaws mentioned in Taure's review, yet it is one of the most reviewed stories on ff.net.

One man's flaws is another man's opinions. The suggestion that a work of fiction is not a story is simply hilarious, and casts a dim light on the rest of the review.

---------- Post automerged at 15:14 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

being trashed and ignored like so many other terrible stories

Because, of course, it isn't terrible. It is perhaps "controversial" because it attempts the mortal sin of applying logic to a fantasy world. If you cannot accept this premise then of course it must seem terrible.

Banta
08-27-2011, 01:16 AM
All fanfiction infringes copyright. Asking for donations is not necessary to tip the scale.The issue is one of money; if it has a price tag, it is not fair-use, and it is not parody. Fan fiction on its own can be ignored by the legal rights holders because it doesn't make the authors any money. What Yudkowsky did goes against that, and as such has the potential to cause all HP fan fiction from FF.net to be removed if JKR or Warner Brothers feels like it.

That's the issue. Not whether or not we like MoR, but that by panhandling through it Yudkowsky is endangering everyone else's fun.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:19 AM
However, I still hold that the story isn't very good at all

Great, your opinion is a valid one, but try to be aware that many people hold the opposite view.

I can only hope that this doesn't ruin fanfic for the rest of us.

It won't. Relax.

---------- Post automerged at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:16 ----------

The MoR thread was one of the best DLP threads for the fact that we showed the fanfiction community who is BOSS.

Actually, all you did was show them who was the most arrogant.

Sesc
08-27-2011, 01:24 AM
Actually, all you did was show them who was the most arrogant.

Well, I never quite saw arrogance as something all that negative, assuming you had something behind your big words.

Which, incidentally, is the difference between us and him. He's smug about writing a mediocre story (that doesn't qualify as HP FF), of dropping out of HS and about having written his own Wikipedia page. We are smug about giving the best feedback and about hosting some of the best writers in HP FF, a few which have the definite potential to go pro (or are already there).

Orm Embar
08-27-2011, 01:24 AM
There's no massive conspiracy or vendetta against MoR here. Attempting to profit from fanfiction, even in a circuitous manner, risks legal action from Warner and/or JKR. He can write and operate his institute, but trying to do one to fund the other is dangerous.

Shezza
08-27-2011, 01:26 AM
...why are we feeding the troll?

Ban him and move on. He's here for the lulz and you won't change his mind.

Also,
Troll: you say that people here still read it and trash it, etc, etc... whereas I can't recall the last time somebody on IRC or on the forum (apart from this little thread here) that somebody mentioned it. Go away.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:27 AM
The funny thing is that LessWrong couldn't be More Wrong. The TOS of FF.net clearly states that

Yudkowsky has not violated the TOS.

T3t
08-27-2011, 01:29 AM
Yes, he has. See how easy that was?

Orm Embar
08-27-2011, 01:29 AM
There'll be more like him, given the number of readers. That said, ignoring them and just continuing to report the story sounds like the best course of action.

Also, update Denarian Apocalypse! Pretty please?

Zerg_Lurker
08-27-2011, 01:30 AM
Sockpuppet, genuine fan and Yudkowsky apologist, or a troll?

Will DLP benefit from increased traffic or merely suffer an influx of trolls?

I'm not very good with math, but can we use Bayes' Theorem to assess the probability of each?

"You're just jealous because I get more readers," and other equally flawed arguments. But above all else, never admit defeat, because the bigger a douche you are, the more traffic you get, as spectators line up to see you jump around the monkey cage, screaming and flinging your poo.

Edit: Just remembered how to use the ignore list.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:31 AM
They hate it because it's fucking terrible

You mean [/they find it terrible/] because it applies logic to their fantasy world. That is not the same as actually being terrible, like Twilight, which doesn't apply anything to anything at all.

kalespr
08-27-2011, 01:31 AM
This shit cracks me up every time.

My favourite part is the lulz.

Oh, and the always inevitable "DLP are mean cuz _____" author update. Especially lulzy when _____ is blatantly incorrect, or so far out there it's the only bit of fantasy the guy's written.

Shezza
08-27-2011, 01:31 AM
Lol. I'm working on it.

In between games of LoL, of course.

Perspicacity
08-27-2011, 01:31 AM
David Planes = Eliezer Sockpuppet?

Yudkowsky is no scientist, as those of us who actually are can attest. Go back under your bridge, troll/puppet.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:32 AM
I'm not certain, since I was only looking at IP and copyright law for a project (albeit a lengthy, extensively researched project), but I was under the impression that since FFnet is not actually producing any content but is rather displaying it (content that in and of itself is tenuously fair use) they are allowed to use ad revenue as long as the revenue goes back to fund said displaying of content.

Intentionally making copyright content available on a large scale is against the law in many countries, regardless of money being made from it or not.

Red Aviary
08-27-2011, 01:33 AM
Science has contributed a lot more to the world than, say, fantasy.

I don't knock the value of science and philosophy. It's just not very relevant to me, nor is it very entertaining.

Also: don't bring me into this, fucknuts. I don't give enough of a shit about this story or this author (unless it actually does have an impact on fanfiction as a whole in some way).

Sesc
08-27-2011, 01:33 AM
Yudkowsky has not violated the TOS.

*Did too!*

... what the fuck is this, Kindergarten? If you could read, you'd see that I quoted the relevant part. No making money of what you posted on their site, in whatever way. Sticking fingers into your ears and shouting la-la-la doesn't make it go away. Your intellectual level drops lower and lower, David Planes.

Bittersweet Freedom
08-27-2011, 01:34 AM
Wow... David Planes... you seem quite passionate about defending Less Wrong. If fact, if it weren't for the way you've managed to keep your (most, though you come off snarky sometimes - then again who at DLP doesn't) cool during this argument, I'd say you were Less Wrong.

I do agree with you on most points though.

EDIT: Ninja'd like 10 times. This seems to be a really popular thread.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:34 AM
The issue is one of money; if it has a price tag

I must have missed the part where money is required to access MoR.

Firebee
08-27-2011, 01:34 AM
If you are referring to "real life" or some other community, he is already significantly more notable than any of us.
To Skynet, you mean? With his AI mumbo jumbo.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:36 AM
(that doesn't qualify as HP FF)

This suggestion is simply hilarious.

Schrodinger
08-27-2011, 01:36 AM
The issue is one of money; if it has a price tag, it is not fair-use, and it is not parody. Fan fiction on its own can be ignored by the legal rights holders because it doesn't make the authors any money. What Yudkowsky did goes against that, and as such has the potential to cause all HP fan fiction from FF.net to be removed if JKR or Warner Brothers feels like it.

That's the issue. Not whether or not we like MoR, but that by panhandling through it Yudkowsky is endangering everyone else's fun.

What I love most about you, David Planes, is that you specifically pick out posts that you can argue with, put up an argument... and when someone proves you wrong, you stop that line of attack. Which is about as legitimate of an approach to debate as undoing your move any time your opponent takes a piece in computer chess.

David Planes
08-27-2011, 01:37 AM
...why are we feeding the troll?

So because my opinion is different from yours, I must be a troll?

Shezza
08-27-2011, 01:38 AM
You mean [/they find it terrible/] because it applies logic to their fantasy world. That is not the same as actually being terrible, like Twilight, which doesn't apply anything to anything at all.


Okay, I gotta reply to that. Yeah, it's terrible because it's trying to apply logic to a fantasy world. Fantasy.

anĚtaĚsy (fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-shttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif, -zhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif)n. pl. fanĚtaĚsies 1. The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy.

2. Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy.
3. A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit.
4. a. Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements.
b. An example of such fiction.

and so forth. We don't read fantasy to contemplate the meaning of human existence and life and all of that. We read fantasy to immerse ourselves in a world that cannot possible exist in our own. Why the hell do we wanna drag our world into Harry Potter? It's interesting enough as it is.


I'll be honest, I've never read MoR. I saw it right when it started as a little 3 chapter story, read the summary and thought "this'll be shit". So I never read it- and that means I don't really have an opinion on it. Completely unbiased and neutral.

So lemme say that using incentives like money for updates is morally and legally wrong. Fanfiction is creative content of copyrighted material. Morally, he's jumping on the bandwagon of somebody's success without the hard work and effort that comes with creating your own fictional world. Legally, it's...well, illegal. It doesn't matter if its for charity, his own gain, to save the whales or save up for a new TV- it's still illegal.

Now I find I do have an opinion of him. He's an stupid twit.

So yeah. Ban the troll and move on.

Edit: Yes, you are a troll. Your posts are inflammatory and you're clearly seeking an emotional response from us. It doesn't matter that your opinion is different- this is the internet, all of our opinions are differernt- it matters about how you conduct yourself when expressing that opinion.

And you, sir, are conducting yourself like a troll

Sesc
08-27-2011, 01:39 AM
This suggestion is simply hilarious.

Feel free to expand on that, David Planes, and we can have a regular debate. I'm open to arguments.

Spanks
08-27-2011, 01:40 AM
Awesome thread is awesome.

Not sure about anyone else, but part of me thinks that David Planes is just another DLPer trolling >_>. If not then all the more hilarious.

Edit: Apparently not a DLPer.

T3t
08-27-2011, 01:40 AM
Too late, he's gone. Thank god.

Sesc
08-27-2011, 01:43 AM
Ah, damn. I'd have been genuinely interested in the argument over why or why not MoR qualifies as Harry Potter FF.

Why'd you ban him :(

insectamantidae
08-27-2011, 01:46 AM
*dies laughing*

I love this forum.

Bittersweet Freedom
08-27-2011, 01:48 AM
I miss him already. :(

Stalin's Pipe Organs
08-27-2011, 01:49 AM
words

You keep on talking but all I see is this:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/481/captionafda6f364d83f000.jpg

Fiat
08-27-2011, 01:50 AM
You mean [/they find it terrible/] because it applies logic to their fantasy world. That is not the same as actually being terrible, like Twilight, which doesn't apply anything to anything at all.No. It's objectively terrible. I'd thank you not to put words in my mouth, Mister Planes, because I know what I fucking mean to say.

People hated twilight because it had terrible prose, an uninspiring plot, was filled with Mary Sues and was largely an Author Tract about the benefits of Abstinence and the awesomeness of sparkly vampires. People hate MoR because it has terrible prose, uninspiring plot, the main character is an Author Sue and is an Author Tract about the awesomeness of rationality. Using your own example, it's fairly simple to argue that MoR is terrible.

So because you personally dislike the story and/or the author, you want it to be taken down? I don't like any of your stories, but that doesn't mean I want them gone. That would make me quite a dick.Good work missing the point. Fanfiction is only legal through fair use and the sufferance of the author. This is gaining profit directly through fanfiction (rather than indirectly as he had been prior to this) and is therefore a violation of copyright. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between donations received by the institute and money going into his pocket. The institute was already receiving donations before the announcement. The infringing portions of the text are not the source of its popularity - to reach the #1 most reviewed place, it must clearly consist of large amounts of original content.The institute was already gaining donations, but between the initial post and his update it gained almost as much as it had during the entirety of the summer up to that point.If you are referring to "real life" or some other community, he is already significantly more notable than any of us.Lolno. In real life, he's just as much of a batshit crazy arrogant crackpot as he is on the internet and he's really little more than an internet celebrity. Also, if you're going to talk about notability, I'm pretty sure that as an actual theoretical physicist with high-level government clearance, Pers is probably a little bit more notable than a random faux-scientist who left school after the eighth grade.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 01:55 AM
Hello ladies and gentlemen. Since this forum cannot tolerate the mildest disagreement, anyone wishing to discuss any of the above points can find me on IRC. Thank you!

ebileh
08-27-2011, 02:00 AM
I should probably find it hilarious that the authors of my two favorite FF stories, Methods of Rationality and Lords of Magic, hate each other so much.

Scrib
08-27-2011, 02:03 AM
Lolno. In real life, he's just as much of a batshit crazy arrogant crackpot as he is on the internet and he's really little more than an internet celebrity. Also, if you're going to talk about notability, I'm pretty sure that as an actual theoretical physicist with high-level government clearance, Pers is probably a little bit more notable than a random faux-scientist who left school after the eighth grade.


Why are we engaging in this pointless e-peen measuring? How notable he is is irrelevant. Snooki and the Kardashian sisters are more famous than me, doesn't make them anything other than lucky cum-dumpsters.

The "story" is terrible. Yudkowsky is terrible. This latest act of his is ridiculous but I don't see why we should sink to his -or his retarded fans'- level and basically argue over who has more inches.

I'm more worried about the trend this sets, if he gets away with this it could be a big problem (although one would struggle to find a fic as popular). People using fanfiction for their own personal causes can only end one way: with a massive lawyer smackdown.

Iztiak
08-27-2011, 02:04 AM
Mildest Disagreement =/= Deliberate Trolling

And honestly, I don't really give a fuck about you to get on IRC. You are doing something that will probably get you in trouble. That trouble with be more than enough for me, so have fun with that.

I don't like your story, so I don't post reviews or read it. I just don't find it in me to be angry about anyone writing a bad story.

Have fun with whatever you do, but remember that you're not the center of the universe.

Stalin's Pipe Organs
08-27-2011, 02:05 AM
Too late, he's gone. Thank god.

Wait no- You spoke too soon.

I'm like 95% sure this chimp flinging shit at us is Less Wrong under a proxy.

Seriously unless Less Wrong comes out with a statement condemning his followers' trolling on our board, we should consider him as the one behind all of this.

kalespr
08-27-2011, 02:06 AM
Conveniently selective reader, LessWrong Defender:

Yo dawg, I hurd you talking shit, and I'ma let you finish, but...

You know those Methods of Rationality? Maybe you should apply them.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 02:09 AM
What I love most about you, David Planes, is that you specifically pick out posts that you can argue with, put up an argument...

It is my observation that Mr Planes was banned before he had the chance to respond to all such posts, of which there were many.

PS. IRC isn't very exciting, 60 people is a poor effort.

---------- Post automerged at 01:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 AM ----------

You know those Methods of Rationality? Maybe you should apply them.

Hold on, let me apply them.

Rationality is telling me that....every forum troll must be Yudkowsky. Yep, must be right.

Scrittore
08-27-2011, 02:11 AM
PS. IRC isn't very exciting, 60 people is a poor effort.

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-03-08/1236526611279.jpg

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 02:22 AM
Nobody has identified me on IRC. 0/10

Sesc
08-27-2011, 02:27 AM
MoreWrong: You are assuming we care.

Mercenary
08-27-2011, 02:42 AM
It is my observation that Mr Planes was banned before he had the chance to respond to all such posts, of which there were many.

PS. IRC isn't very exciting, 60 people is a poor effort.

---------- Post automerged at 01:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 AM ----------



Hold on, let me apply them.

Rationality is telling me that....every forum troll must be Yudkowsky. Yep, must be right.
O_o?

Lets see, name... Troll has already been in the thread, MoR ... Yeah I think Im going to go with what the trend is telling me. (Trolls everywhere up in dis.)
Nobody has identified me on IRC. 0/10
I dont see how that is relevant?

Does identifying you on IRC somehow validate your self worth?

Hello ladies and gentlemen. Since this forum cannot tolerate the mildest disagreement, anyone wishing to discuss any of the above points can find me on IRC. Thank you!

...

Hmm 20 mins after David's last post in which he was banned... Claiming that we can not "tolerate" mild disagreement (lol) even though you havent been posting in this thread and oh look you registered today...
*Inhales*

Smells like...

Ban Evasion.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 02:46 AM
Claiming that we can not "tolerate" mild disagreement

If you throw away any opinions about MoR or Yudkowsky and read the thread, it appears that one person is being banned because he likes the fic that everyone else on the forum hates, and is defending Yudkowsky against various accusations.

So yes, that looks like the forum cannot tolerate disagreement. "Herp derp it's a troll" is a convenient excuse to censor those you don't like.

Andro
08-27-2011, 02:51 AM
Nobody has identified me on IRC. 0/10

Hide and seek is a kindergarten game. LessWrong didn't advance much further beyond that, did he?

Also, unless you make something of yourself, like Mark Zuckerberg, or Bill Gates, skipping high school and proclaiming yourself an autodidact in and of yourself is not an achievement.

Sesc
08-27-2011, 02:51 AM
Well, there's nothing wrong with banning people from a Forum because they don't fit in, first of all. My favourite banning reason is stupidity.

But more importantly, there are lots of people on the boards who like the story, for whatever reason, so you claim is invalid on that grounds alone; and saying furthermore that someone signing up in order to go through an entire thread to respond to every post made is not Trolling is not really believable either.

kalespr
08-27-2011, 02:52 AM
Except for the fact that there are users here like MoR. Furthermore, that the key issue raised in this thread has nothing to do with anyone's opinions on the story (or the author), whatsoever, but are rather regarding the fact that he's breaking not only the ff.net ToS, but arguably the law as well.

In other words: You are either someone with subpar reading comprehension levels (and/or critical thinking skills), or a troll.

Atomicwalrus
08-27-2011, 02:55 AM
If you throw away any opinions about MoR or Yudkowsky and read the thread, it appears that one person is being banned because he likes the fic that everyone else on the forum hates, and is defending Yudkowsky against various accusations.

So yes, that looks like the forum cannot tolerate disagreement. "Herp derp it's a troll" is a convenient excuse to censor those you don't like.

David (because I'm pretty sure that's who you are) many people like the story on this forum, the majority of the hate as you put it in this thread is to him asking for money.

Don't believe everything your lord and master Less Wrong says without looking into the issue your self.

Iztiak
08-27-2011, 03:03 AM
*sigh* This thread needs to die. Just like the previous several.

Mercenary
08-27-2011, 03:07 AM
If you throw away any opinions about MoR or Yudkowsky and read the thread, it appears that one person is being banned because he likes the fic that everyone else on the forum hates, and is defending Yudkowsky against various accusations.

So yes, that looks like the forum cannot tolerate disagreement. "Herp derp it's a troll" is a convenient excuse to censor those you don't like.

It really doesn't look like that at all. To an outsider, it simply looks like his organisation is in need of donations. Assuming that every action must be part of a plot could be considered a form of paranoia.


I will release completed chapters at a pace of one every 6 days, or one every 5 days after the SIAI's Summer Challenge reaches $50,000, or one every 4 days after the Summer Challenge reaches $75,000, or one every 3 days if the Summer Challenge is completed.

Yup it certainly just looks his organization is in need. Yup. Doesnt look like he's trying to use fanfiction to incentivize donations. Nope.


See its not that We dont like LessWrong(Okay some of us do hate him a lot). The concept is interesting but its the authorial attitude and the holier than thou because "im a scientist and your not blay blay" that really pisses us off.

For me it was then the story started become less Harry and more Author soapbox. Whole chapters devoted to how Harry is the Chosen to lead the world into the Enlighten Age that he would create.

Then this comes up. If you replaced dollar with review no one would give a shit. People do that all the fucking time and no one gives a shit because a review has no monetary value. Its fucking bits of information on the internet. But this? He's telling people that at X donations his rate will be A. At Y donations his rate will be B. And the donations... ARE REAL FUCKING MONEY.

Real money to a real organization that employs him. Do you know what that can look like to a lawyer? It would look like he is getting paid to produce something he doesnt have a copyright to.


And the biggest part inst even that. Its the state of fanfiction. We like the way it is now. It works. Authors say "Yeah I ff is okay. " or "No I dont want ff to be written." And people generally obey but when people step out of line we have to call them out on it. Otherwise we will start to see a lot more Copy holders just state No outright. And that's bad. Fanfiction exists at the pleasure of the copyright holder.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:13 AM
But more importantly, there are lots of people on the boards who like the story

Let me revise it to the loudest and proudest members of the forum, but indeed not all.

the key issue raised in this thread has nothing to do with anyone's opinions on the story (or the author), whatsoever, but are rather regarding the fact that he's breaking not only the ff.net ToS, but arguably the law as well.

It is sufficiently obvious to anyone who reads the ToS without bias that asking for donations is not prohibited.

The thread itself was made by someone who very vocally dislikes MoR. In some posts, some people are laughing because their hated author seems to have done something wrong. This thread is very clearly motivated by hate for the author and/or the story. The alleged violation is just being used as an attack vector.

---------- Post automerged at 02:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 AM ----------

Real money to a real organization that employs him. Do you know what that can look like to a lawyer? It would look like he is getting paid to produce something he doesnt have a copyright to.

Every fanfiction story violates copyright. Every one of them. Copyright law is clearly flawed in this regard. However, most copyright holders don't really care, even if donations are requested, even if a fanfic site displays ads (or whether it makes any money or not).

I am arguing that asking for donations is not a violation of the ToS of ff.net. You are welcome to provide an alternate interpretation, but please cite the specific point of the ToS that it violates and why.

minhoto
08-27-2011, 03:14 AM
/sigh

the sad part of all this is that I really do enjoy MoR, faults and all, but the idiocy of this attempt to raise money for his non-profit and the arrogance the author has towards the DLP and people that disagree with him makes me not want anything to do with MoR.

also:
It is sufficiently obvious to anyone who reads the ToS without bias that asking for donations is not prohibited.

I pretty sure that asking for money in any way (for donation, for your own pocket, etc.) is a violation of the ToS

T3t
08-27-2011, 03:16 AM
Fanfiction does not violate copyright, it's covered under fair use. The fact that some popular authors threatened to sic lawyers on FFN doesn't change this.

Likewise, asking for donations isn't illegal. Asking for donations in exchange for providing a service using fanfiction absolutely is.

Tenages
08-27-2011, 03:17 AM
I am arguing that asking for donations is not a violation of the ToS of ff.net. You are welcome to provide an alternate interpretation, but please cite the specific point of the ToS that it violates and why.

It has already been cited. The fact is that you either chose to ignore or have poor reading comprehension. Try harder.

Or just go away. That sounds like a better option.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:22 AM
the sad part of all this is that I really do enjoy MoR, faults and all, but the idiocy of this attempt to raise money for his non-profit

Honestly, I would prefer if he would just post them at a fixed rate regardless.

and the arrogance the author has towards the DLP and people that disagree with him

Well, it sounds like a couple bad eggs were being dicks and that gave him a bad impression of the whole community.

I pretty sure that asking for money in any way (for donation, for your own pocket, etc.) is a violation of the ToS

Alright, can you show me which section exactly and why?

---------- Post automerged at 02:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 AM ----------

It has already been cited. The fact is that you either chose to ignore or have poor reading comprehension. Try harder.

A block was quoted with no explanation of how he has violated it.

---------- Post automerged at 02:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 AM ----------


D. You agree not to use the Website for any commercial use, without the prior written authorization of FanFiction.Net. Prohibited commercial uses include any of the following actions taken without FanFiction.Net's express approval:


sale of access to the Website or its related services on another website;
use of the Website or its related services for the primary purpose of gaining advertising or subscription revenue;
the sale of advertising, on the FanFiction.Net website or any third-party website, targeted to the content of specific User Submissions or FanFiction.Net content;
and any use of the Website or its related services that FanFiction.Net finds, in its sole discretion, to use FanFiction.Net's resources or User Submissions with the effect of competing with or displacing the market for FanFiction.Net, FanFiction.Net content, or its User Submissions.



He is not selling access to the site (chapter updates are not "access" and donations are not a sale), there is no subscription revenue, asking for donations is not advertising revenue, he hasn't sold advertising space, he isn't displacing the market.
Edit: "any commercial use" is rather broad, but nonprofits are not commercial organisations. The only way it could violate it is if asking for donations could be considered commercial use, but they presumably would not be.

kalespr
08-27-2011, 03:27 AM
The thread itself was made by someone who very vocally dislikes MoR. In some posts, some people are laughing because their hated author seems to have done something wrong. This thread is very clearly motivated by hate for the author and/or the story. The alleged violation is just being used as an attack vector.

And yet, that doesn't make it any less morally or legally questionable to pimp extra fanfiction chapters to fundraise for a pet non-profit project that the author has a clear personal vested interest in.

Original fiction? Certainly. Go for it. But using an intellectual property to which you do not have the rights (ie Harry Potter), to fund raise for one's own projects (non-profit organization or not), is clearly entering into the area of questionable (if not criminal) practices.

Furthermore, this risks negative attention being brought upon not only LessWrong (or the aforementioned organization), but the fanfiction community in general.

Speakers
08-27-2011, 03:28 AM
The merits of either his fic or his attitude (both of which I don't care for) really shouldn't have anything to do with this thread.

Personally, I think him asking for donations should be allowed. Legally, I don't think it is.

MoreWrong, "Prohibited commercial uses include" does not equal "exhaustive list of prohibited commercial uses".

Grinning Lizard
08-27-2011, 03:29 AM
Welcome to DLP, LessWrong. Enjoy your stay. No, it isn't weird to now be spamming the refresh button on a forum your profess to hate.

I guess this was all somewhat inevitable.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:33 AM
Original fiction? Certainly. Go for it. But using an intellectual property to which you do not have the rights (ie Harry Potter), to fund raise for one's own projects (non-profit organization or not), is clearly entering into the area of questionable (if not criminal) practices.

Harry Potter is only one component of MoR. If using Harry Potter automatically equalled a hundred thousand reads, then every fic on the site would be at least as popular. Indeed, Harry's character is completely unrecognisable in MoR.

Furthermore, this risks negative attention being brought upon not only LessWrong (or the aforementioned organization), but the fanfiction community in general.

If the fanfiction community is worried about this then they should stop making a big deal out of it and contacting the copyright holders, and stick to just contacting ff.net to get their opinion on it. As LW has stated, he will take down the notice if they ask him to.

The Santi
08-27-2011, 03:34 AM
It is sufficiently obvious to anyone who reads the ToS without bias that asking for donations is not prohibited.


Eh, that's debatable. While I don't think that LessWrong specifically violated the commercial use policy, his intent to generate revenue for a third party, one not affiliated with WB or JKR, places this into a gray area. Since Fanfiction is essentially at the discretion of the author, gray does not favor the fanfiction community as a whole.

If anything DLP is acting in the best interest of the fandom by issuing a general deterrence argument. The issue isn't that MoR sucks, it's that the fandom could suffer damages from LessWrong's actions.

Now, if LessWrong posted a link in his profile saying 'hey this is an awesome cause for science, donate pleaze,' that would be fine.

What he essentially set up was a bargain. Donate a certain amount of $, and I'll update faster. Since he's a part of the non-profit, he indirectly profits from the the donations, which is not cool.


The thread itself was made by someone who very vocally dislikes MoR.

Irrelevant. Goes back to intent. Goal wasn't to bash LessWrong -- that argument has been done to death.



Some people are laughing because their hated author seems to have done something wrong.

And In some posts members are calling each other gay. In case you didn't realize it, some just means x> or =1.


This thread is very clearly motivated by hate for the author and/or the story. The alleged violation is just being used as an attack vector.


Some (See what I did there?) people might not like the story or author, but the main issue at hand is that Lesswrong puts the greater fandom in peril. Whether he intended to or not, he is responsible for asking a price (monetary donations) in exchange for a service (faster updates). He either needs to rephrase his 'request' or, as he did, remove it.

TL;DR: Lawyered.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:34 AM
MoreWrong, "Prohibited commercial uses include" does not equal "exhaustive list of prohibited commercial uses".

Yes, and I am arguing that donations are not commercial.

KaiDASH
08-27-2011, 03:39 AM
Harry Potter is only one component of MoR. If using Harry Potter automatically equalled a hundred thousand reads, then every fic on the site would be at least as popular. Indeed, Harry's character is completely unrecognisable in MoR.



If the fanfiction community is worried about this then they should stop making a big deal out of it and contacting the copyright holders, and stick to just contacting ff.net to get their opinion on it. As LW has stated, he will take down the notice if they ask him to.

If Yudkowsky had dropped the HP aspect entirely and made all original characters and published his works on fictionpress (or a similar site) he'd be lucky to have 5% of the readerbase he has with HP:MoR.

You can say it is 'only one component' but it is the component that drew in 90%+ of the initial readers for the fic.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:40 AM
Eh, that's debatable. While I don't think that LessWrong specifically violated the commercial use policy, his intent to generate revenue for a third party, one not affiliated with WB or JKR, places this into a gray area. Since Fanfiction is essentially at the discretion of the author, gray does not favor the fanfiction community as a whole.

I just see it as moving around within greyspace, where fanfiction has always been and always will be. I just can't see a single fic having an effect on fanfiction as a whole, even if that fic asks for donations.

Irrelevant. Goes back to intent. Goal wasn't to bash LessWrong -- that argument has been done to death.

I am going to respectfully disagree here. The start of the thread looks more like an execution than general concern for the state of fanfiction. If it wasn't relevant then it never should have been posted.

Speakers
08-27-2011, 03:40 AM
Right, asking for donations might not be considered commercial use. Asking for donations for faster updates could. I'm sure only FFN can decide the latter.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:43 AM
If Yudkowsky had dropped the HP aspect entirely and made all original characters and published his works on fictionpress (or a similar site) he'd be lucky to have 5% of the readerbase he has with HP:MoR.

You can say it is 'only one component' but it is the component that drew in 90%+ of the initial readers for the fic.

Yudkowsky kept them going for 73 chapters, all on his own. New readers will not see the donation request unless they choose to keep reading.

---------- Post automerged at 02:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 AM ----------

Right, asking for donations might not be considered commercial use. Asking for donations for faster updates could. I'm sure only FFN can decide the latter.

I await their decision.

Shezza
08-27-2011, 03:43 AM
Harry Potter is only one component of MoR. If using Harry Potter automatically equalled a hundred thousand reads, then every fic on the site would be at least as popular. Indeed, Harry's character is completely unrecognisable in MoR.

If Harry Potter is only one component of MoR and, by your inference, a very small component, then why doesn't LessWrong create his own original work? There, he could ask for donations / whatever however he liked and it wouldn't affect anybody else and we honestly wouldn't care.

And you say donations don't count- is the company a registered charity? If so, post the details and perhaps I'll concede it. If not, then I won't believe it's not for-profit- especially when the author is a significant stakeholder (employer, employee, whatever) in it.

kalespr
08-27-2011, 03:43 AM
Harry Potter is only one component of MoR. If using Harry Potter automatically equalled a hundred thousand reads, then every fic on the site would be at least as popular. Indeed, Harry's character is completely unrecognisable in MoR.

The author's plotline is certainly his own, but the fact remains that he's borrowing JKR's property as a launching platform. Component or not, it's not a component to which he does not have legal rights. Thus, the dangerous moral/legal grey area in using it as incentive to donate to an organization.

KaiDASH
08-27-2011, 03:44 AM
That isn't the point. The point is he wouldn't have anything like the amount of readers he does if it was an original fiction and not a Harry Potter fanfiction.

You can't say the HP part is 'just one component' since it is so vital to making the fic as popular as it is.

Fiat
08-27-2011, 03:45 AM
Asking for donations for an institute that he founded - not just one that he works for, as was stated in the initial request for donations - in exchange for faster updates seems to constitute a commercial use. If he was just a random fan of the institute it would be different, but he's argued with people on his wiki page about how he founded the SIAI.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:48 AM
If Harry Potter is only one component of MoR and, by your inference, a very small component, then why doesn't LessWrong create his own original work? There, he could ask for donations / whatever however he liked and it wouldn't affect anybody else and we honestly wouldn't care.

He is actually writing a book.

And you say donations don't count- is the company a registered charity? If so, post the details and perhaps I'll concede it. If not, then I won't believe it's not for-profit- especially when the author is a significant stakeholder (employer, employee, whatever) in it.

Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Our tax ID # is 58-2565917.

---------- Post automerged at 02:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 AM ----------

Asking for donations for an institute that he founded - not just one that he works for, as was stated in the initial request for donations - in exchange for faster updates seems to constitute a commercial use.

Well, I don't see much point in continuing to argue. We clearly are not going to agree.

NoxedSalvation
08-27-2011, 03:50 AM
The thread itself was made by someone who very vocally dislikes MoR.

Well, your reading comprehension is pretty poor. Let's see what I actually wrote:

(...) Maybe you should use the rationality you are rightly popularizing with this story in your own RL actions? (...)
Any comments beyond "Why did you read that trash anyway, dipshit?" or "Told you so!"?

In fact, I AM one of those DLP members who read MoR and who liked much of it, as is implied by my original posting. I have it in my ff.net favorites -that's how I found out about this "donations" fiasco- and I'm still ready to argue for the aspects of the story I enjoy, like the well done humor in the first chapters, the characterization of Quirell and most of all the delicious dichotomy between "muggle" rationality and magic, the driving theme behind the whole fic.

This doesn't mean that I feel any irrational "fanboy loyalty" for Mr. Yudkowsky- he has many flaws, as can be seen by his over the top actions towards DLP and now this whole ugly money grabbing disaster.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:50 AM
That isn't the point. The point is he wouldn't have anything like the amount of readers he does if it was an original fiction and not a Harry Potter fanfiction.

You can't say the HP part is 'just one component' since it is so vital to making the fic as popular as it is.

That is actually very difficult, if not impossible, to determine. Consider that there are many works of fiction which are not fanfiction which are much more popular.

Fiat
08-27-2011, 03:51 AM
That is actually very difficult, if not impossible, to determine. Consider that there are many works of fiction which are not fanfiction which are much more popular.True, but it is far from his only work of fiction which is not fanfiction.

How popular are those?

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:52 AM
Well, your reading comprehension is pretty poor. Let's see what I actually wrote:

My apologies.

Consider my comments to instead be directed at the immediate replies to your OP.

Sacro
08-27-2011, 03:52 AM
I just can't see a single fic having an effect on fanfiction as a whole, even if that fic asks for donations.
Yeah, it's not like he asked for $36,000, and when his goal of $75,000 was completed, it's not like he asked for another $50,000.

Oh wait, he did, and with this much money, you can be almost sure that WB is going to be pissed.

Atomicwalrus
08-27-2011, 03:53 AM
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Our tax ID # is 58-2565917.


Did you just reveal your hand here mate, what do you mean by our.

Fiat
08-27-2011, 03:55 AM
Did you just reveal your hand here mate, what do you mean by our.It's already been assumed by many of the people in the thread. I'm personally giving him the benefit of the doubt: doesn't Yudkowsky already have an account here?

Oruma
08-27-2011, 03:56 AM
It could be because it's copypasta from the SIAI site.
(Yes, I am an optimist.)

tragicmat1
08-27-2011, 03:56 AM
I just see it as moving around within greyspace, where fanfiction has always been and always will be. I just can't see a single fic having an effect on fanfiction as a whole, even if that fic asks for donations.

MOVING around in grey space. That sounds terrible. While fanfictions may always be a little iffy with whether or not they are legal, it has been around long enough that it is apparent that most author's don't mind them and can tolerate ff.net. However, that doesn't mean you should be exploring the limits of this "grey space."

In any case, why are we still arguing about this? LessWrong has already removed his little passage requesting donations, so it would be logical to assume that even he realizes that there could be ramifications caused by it, and thus removed it to be safe. If he truly believed that it is correct/does not violate any rules, he would not care what some posters at DLP are saying.

Edit:
It's already been assumed by many of the people in the thread. I'm personally giving him the benefit of the doubt: doesn't Yudkowsky already have an account here?

Earlier, I saw both MoreWrong and LessWrong both as active users viewing the thread.

Edit 2: Disregard the party about him removing the A/N. I thought it was mentioned that he did, but apparently it is still up there.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:57 AM
True, but it is far from his only work of fiction which is not fanfiction.

How popular are those?

I don't know, do they have a review counter? Were they based on exactly the same theme of applying rationality to an unusual world?

It is like asking if Lord of the Rings would have been as popular if it were set somewhere in Europe.

Alraune
08-27-2011, 03:57 AM
It's already been assumed by many of the people in the thread. I'm personally giving him the benefit of the doubt: doesn't Yudkowsky already have an account here?

Yeah. He was just on here a second ago.

LessWrong's Profile
Last Activity: Today 03:36 AM

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 03:59 AM
Did you just reveal your hand here mate, what do you mean by our.

It was an obvious copypaste.

---------- Post automerged at 02:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 AM ----------

he would not care what some posters at DLP are saying.

Most people don't take web forums seriously at all. I certainly don't.

Great way to pass the time though.

The Santi
08-27-2011, 04:00 AM
I just see it as moving around within greyspace, where fanfiction has always been and always will be. I just can't see a single fic having an effect on fanfiction as a whole, even if that fic asks for donations.

Okay, why would you want to allow even the possibly of damaging such a wonderful and expansive fandom such as HP fanfiction? Good or bad, LessWrong has a very substantial following, and, if anything, any fic that is able to actually generate donations from readers needs to be held to an even stricter standard.


I am going to respectfully disagree here. The start of the thread looks more like an execution than general concern for the state of fanfiction. If it wasn't relevant then it never should have been posted.

You obviously didn't read the OP. Allow me to repost the key parts for you:

While I realize that many people here on DLP don't want to read another word about MoR and its author I think this news is relevant enough to post it anyway.

Notice how emphasis is not on MoR as a story or LessWrong as an author? The entire issue is framed by LessWrong's actions. In fact Noxed goes on to say:


Any comments beyond "Why did you read that trash anyway, dipshit?" or "Told you so!"?

Get it? This thread isn't about LessWrong's Story, it's about what he did. While some people might use the thread as an excuse to vent at LessWrong, it doesn't matter. The ISSUE is that LessWrong shouldn't be asking for donations, and it's fairly clean cut.

Allow me to simplify this for you.

If you write fanfiction, you do not, under any circumstances, attempt to set up even the most rudimentary form of a bargain where one party (readers) give monetarily to another party (in this case the non-profit) in exchange for a service (the work of fanfiction).

It really is that simple.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 04:03 AM
If you write fanfiction, you do not, under any circumstances, attempt to set up even the most rudimentary form of a bargain where one party (readers) give monetarily to another party (in this case the non-profit) in exchange for a service (the work of fanfiction).

Did you make that up there on the spot, or are you the Lord of all fanfiction?

tragicmat1
08-27-2011, 04:04 AM
Did you make that up there on the spot, or are you the Lord of all fanfiction?

No you shithead. It's common sense.

Fiat
08-27-2011, 04:04 AM
In any case, why are we still arguing about this? LessWrong has already removed his little passage requesting donations, so it would be logical to assume that even he realizes that there could be ramifications caused by it, and thus removed it to be safe. If he truly believed that it is correct/does not violate any rules, he would not care what some posters at DLP are saying.It's much more likely to be based on a fear of WB/FF.net reprisal than an actual belief that he's wrong. If enough people complain, someone will probably do something as a response and he doesn't want it to happen. His fanfiction has brought him more mainstream attention than all his Friendly AI proselytizing combined, and nearly as much money in days as he made in an entire summer. He has to protect it at all costs.

Of course, most of us who complained probably linked screencaps anyway, so it's a moot point.

Castiel
08-27-2011, 04:05 AM
Obviously, you shithead. He is the Lord of all fanfiction.

Fixed that for you.

Atomicwalrus
08-27-2011, 04:06 AM
Did you make that up there on the spot, or are you the Lord of all fanfiction?

I wouldn't say his the lord but if you even take a casual glance at his current story I would at the very least make him the Duke of fanfiction.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 04:07 AM
No you shithead. It's common sense.

Is it now? I am of the belief that anyone producing a creative work ought to be able to make money from it. Anyone who thinks otherwise has boxed themself into a moral corner where they think all fanfiction will fall apart if even a cent is made for any organisation for any purpose in any way possible.

kalespr
08-27-2011, 04:07 AM
It's much more likely to be based on a fear of WB/FF.net reprisal than an actual belief that he's wrong. If enough people complain, someone will probably do something as a response and he doesn't want it to happen.

Of course, most of us who complained probably linked screencaps anyway, so it's a moot point.

Furthermore WB has already set a precedent for being rather aggressive in defending their intellectual properties, across a wide spectrum of medium. Even if they did eventually back off, in regards to HP fan sites.

Grinning Lizard
08-27-2011, 04:09 AM
Earlier, I saw both MoreWrong and LessWrong both as active users viwing the thread.

This is actually what convinced me it was him. Why on earth would he log in if he wasn't going to post? He has a seperate machine on in the background with the LessWrong account logged in, 'viewing' the thread. It will even be pretty much exactly as pathetic as it sounds.

He's had to resort to referring to himself in the third person because he's actually transcended his own ego. True story.

Speakers
08-27-2011, 04:09 AM
Actually, he hasn't deleted it. It shouldn't matter all that much until(if) FFN takes action.

And Santi, while I may enjoy reading your fic, I disagree with your sweeping statements there. Anything fan generated = no monetary gain whatsoever is absurd. The fact that DLP itself is funded by donations should make that clear.

TheWiseTomato
08-27-2011, 04:10 AM
I am of the belief that anyone producing a creative work ought to be able to make money from it.

Unless, you know, someone else owns the damn thing.

Fiat
08-27-2011, 04:10 AM
Is it now? I am of the belief that anyone producing a creative work ought to be able to make money from it. Anyone who thinks otherwise has boxed themself into a moral corner where they think all fanfiction will fall apart if even a cent is made for any organisation for any purpose in any way possible....You genuinely believe that one should be capable of profiting from derivative fiction? Seriously? Are you on crack?

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 04:14 AM
Unless, you know, someone else owns the damn thing.

If JKR had written MoR I would have bought it. She did not.

Neither did WB.

It is a derivative work which means that only certain components of it are owned by someone else.

---------- Post automerged at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 AM ----------

...You genuinely believe that one should be capable of profiting from derivative fiction?

Yes.

Seriously?
Yes.

Are you on crack?

No. Derivative works can have amazing amounts of creativity poured into them. Many of the posters in this thread have written well-reviewed fics, and they ought to be able to earn money for their work. It is sad that they are held back by copyright law.

T3t
08-27-2011, 04:15 AM
Which means it's legal to seek a licensing agreement from the IP holders. Until then, you can't try making money off of it. We're not talking morality here so much as what's legal and not.

Fatality
08-27-2011, 04:16 AM
In any case, why are we still arguing about this? LessWrong has already removed his little passage requesting donations

Er, what are you talking about? It's still up there for me.

And dhulli, DLP receiving donations is completely different. Donations in this case aren't paying for a Harry Potter FanFic - they're paying to keep the site running. No copyright involved at all.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 04:16 AM
Which means it's legal to seek a licensing agreement from the IP holders. Until then, you can't try making money off of it. We're not talking morality here so much as what's legal and not.

That is the current situation, yes.

Red Aviary
08-27-2011, 04:17 AM
If JKR had written MoR I would have bought it. She did not.

Neither did WB.

It is a derivative work which means that only certain components of it are owned by someone else.

---------- Post automerged at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 AM ----------



Yes.


Yes.



No. Derivative works can have amazing amounts of creativity poured into them. Many of the posters in this thread have written well-reviewed fics, and they ought to be able to earn money for their work. It is sad that they are held back by copyright law.

http://i.imgur.com/wnMBT.jpg

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 04:18 AM
And dhulli, DLP receiving donations is completely different. Donations in this case aren't paying for a Harry Potter FanFic - they're paying to keep the site running. No copyright involved at all.

Donations to SIAI keep their site running and keep their events and research programs running. Yudkowsky is not employed to write fanfiction.

JWH
08-27-2011, 04:19 AM
No. Derivative works can have amazing amounts of creativity poured into them. Many of the posters in this thread have written well-reviewed fics, and they ought to be able to earn money for their work. It is sad that they are held back by copyright law.

Dura lex sed lex.



\/

The laws in place represent the only system that has legal relevance in the USA.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 04:19 AM
http://i.imgur.com/wnMBT.jpg

Thank you for your opinion.

Do you honestly believe that the laws in place right now represent the only system that would work?

kalespr
08-27-2011, 04:21 AM
Donations to SIAI keep their site running and keep their events and research programs running. Yudkowsky is not employed to write fanfiction.

Asking for donations to SIAI is not the issue. Using fanfiction as incentive to donate is.

Castiel
08-27-2011, 04:22 AM
This thread is fucking hillarious.

Now, all we gotta do is bring syed here and show LessWrong who is more rational.

Speakers
08-27-2011, 04:22 AM
@MoreWrong: Right, this isn't the place to debate your 'opinions' on copyright law. Open another thread for that.

We're here to discuss, using current copyright law, the lawfulness of your/LessWrong's actions.

Fiat
08-27-2011, 04:23 AM
Donations to SIAI keep their site running and keep their events and research programs running. Yudkowsky is not employed to write fanfiction.Not prior to this request for donations, but as he's now trading fanfiction for donation money, he is.Do you honestly believe that the laws in place right now represent the only system that would work?No, I believe that they're a system that does work, however, and the one which is morally right in respect to the actual author of the original fiction.

MoreWrong
08-27-2011, 04:24 AM
Using fanfiction as incentive to donate is.

I disagree, but okay.

NoxedSalvation
08-27-2011, 04:24 AM
Donations to SIAI keep their site running and keep their events and research programs running. Yudkowsky is not employed to write fanfiction.

The problem is that Yudkowsky is asking for money in exchange for the SERVICE of posting faster updates of a fanfiction story. It doesn't matter that the money goes to SIAI and only via them into his pocket- the point is that he tries to get money for a SERVICE he offers pertaining copyrighted material HE doesn't OWN.

scaryisntit
08-27-2011, 04:25 AM
Thank you for your opinion.

Do you honestly believe that the laws in place right now represent the only system that would work?

Uh. How about missing the point? This isn't about whether it is the only system that would work. The issue is about what LessWrong has done is violating the system that is in place.

Avoiding the issue much?

Edit: Ninja'd by four peeps, but most important dhulli. Damn you guys are quick.

T3t
08-27-2011, 04:27 AM
So basically he's agreed that we're right and has moved onto hypotheticals.

Jon
08-27-2011, 05:00 AM
This thread is now about my new ban mask.

What should it be?

T3t
08-27-2011, 05:02 AM
I just lost the game.

Your ban mask should be "Lost the Game."

Jon
08-27-2011, 05:05 AM
I like it.

samkar
08-27-2011, 06:31 AM
If he would at least have asked money to not post updates.

Luckylee
08-27-2011, 06:47 AM
That was late, bad, and you should feel bad.

enembee
08-27-2011, 06:59 AM
This thread is exactly why half of DLP needs culling. FML guys, find some fucking self-respect.

Don't get me wrong, MoR is a complete piece of shit, but recommending that anyone take this to WB or FFNet? Taure you ought to think before you post shit.

To the rest of you jumping on the "Fuck-Yeah!" DLP train, shut up. This is exactly why DLP is generally considered a nesting ground for trolls rather than as a producer of quality fanfiction writers and critics, which is what we actually are.

Seriously, you've achieved sweet fuck all except proving yourselves complete embarrassments.

Taure
08-27-2011, 07:06 AM
Oh enembee, you so hipster.

(For the record, if any DLP member tried to sell fanfiction I'd report them too. It's just not on. The fact that Yudkowsky is a douchebag is just an added bonus.)

enembee
08-27-2011, 07:08 AM
Taure, I like you but you're genuinely acting like a retard because you're butthurt over LessWrong.

Just drop it.

Taure
08-27-2011, 07:09 AM
You like me?

enembee
08-27-2011, 07:14 AM
Sexually.

Riddle me this, what have you actually achieved? I mean aside from jeopardizing everyone's fun by calling in WB's asshats in suits? Even if you get his story deleted, what will that achieve?

Also, fuck off if you want me or anyone else to believe that you give a shit about intellectual property. If you care so passionately, stop posting fanfiction to FFNet, who plaster every page of every story with ads. DLP takes donations too, gonna take it up with Ravenclaw?

This shit is ridiculous and embarrassing. All you've done is give LessWrong another unjustified bag of reviews, bring more negative light on this forum (which helps nobody) and stirred up a whole bunch of irrelevant internet drama.

Pointless.

ViolentRed
08-27-2011, 07:15 AM
Ah, the Freudian Slip.

The start of so many a romance.

enembee
08-27-2011, 07:17 AM
Ah, the Freudian Slip.

The start of so many a romance.

I can only hope.

Sesc
08-27-2011, 07:18 AM
... who exactly cares what everyone not on this forum thinks about this forum? If LessWrong feels the need to review his own story with a rant about us (lol for irony), it's more or less free advertisement. I'm perfectly happy to be disliked by everyone who reads MoR. I'd be concerned if it was any other way.

Taure
08-27-2011, 07:22 AM
It's yet to be seen if WB et. al./FF.Net will take any action. The author's note has updated sometime in the last 24 hours, saying he's now up to $78k.

He had $39k already and from the sounds of things it wasn't going up that fast. So he's made around $39k from fanfic. That's not the kind of thing I'd imagine they'd allow to pass without comment. They might not sue him (could be bad publicity), but he might get a strongly worded letter. It's just a matter of if they bother to look into it or not.

With regards to intellectual property: that's not the point. JKR has given tacit permission for people to write fanfic from the fact that she hasn't shut it down. However, she has said on multiple occasions that she does not want other people making money from Harry Potter. In fact, she was so worried about it that she almost changed the plot to make it harder. In one interview she said that she was tempted to kill Harry (and keep him dead) just so that no-one could sell carry-on stories after she died.

LessWrong might have known this if he actually had any interest in Harry Potter, rather than using it as a vehicle to artificially raise his readership.

enembee
08-27-2011, 07:23 AM
... who exactly cares what everyone not on this forum thinks about this forum? If LessWrong feels the need to review his own story with a rant about us (lol for irony), it's more or less free advertisement.

I do, actually. As should anyone else writing stuff for general consumption at FFNet or any other site. I don't know about you, but I write my shit to be read, not to be dismissed because I'm tarred with the same brush as certain other members of this forum who don't have the sense to keep from rushing in under mob mentality and trolling left, right and centre. You might not care what other people think, but I'm not too proud to admit that I do :/.

calutron
08-27-2011, 07:24 AM
NMB is right, but I still can't resist putting in my two cents.

Yudkowsky, offered a higher update rate, if his non-profit organization[=/= charity] made a certain amount of money.



Fanfiction is not infringing if it constitutes fair use of the underlying copyrighted work. In determining whether a particular use constitutes fair use, courts consider the following four factors:

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. The nature of the copyrighted work;
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.ö

While his organization might raise the money from sources unrelated to Mr.Yud's readers, the fact is that if he achieves his goal, he is using copyrighted material for the purpose of supporting a non-profit group which in turn will pay it's expenses from the money raised.

That would in effect mean that Rowling, was selling new material for the support of a non-profit organization.

So in effect, Mr.Yudkowsky is making new material and selling it for the support of a non-profit.

Since Mr.Yudkowsky has no right to produce new materials in JKR's name or WB's name and profit either directly or by extension through contribution to his own charity, Mr.Yud has committed copyright infringement.

Taure
08-27-2011, 07:28 AM
It's not really a matter of copyright infringement. All fanfic is copyright infringement.

Sure, you might be able to make a legal argument that fanfiction is fair use, but it's never going to work in practice. In most cases of a cease and desist it's not going to make it to court. And if it does make it to court, judges have shown time and time again the preference to rule in favour of copyright holders. The Lexicon Encyclopaedia court case had the leading expert in Fair Use working for RDR books and they still lost the case.

What matters isn't copyright infringement. What matters is what the copyright holders are willing to allow and aren't willing to allow.

Daidalos
08-27-2011, 07:45 AM
It's yet to be seen if WB et. al./FF.Net will take any action. The author's note has updated sometime in the last 24 hours, saying he's now up to $78k.

He had $39k already and from the sounds of things it wasn't going up that fast. So he's made around $39k from fanfic. That's not the kind of thing I'd imagine they'd allow to pass without comment.

If you check the history of his organization's fundraisers, you will find that it has received large donations from bigtime billionaires like Peter Thiel in the past, so I think that the notion that the $39k mostly comes from his pledge to update faster is unlikely.

Warlocke
08-27-2011, 07:48 AM
@Warlocke: Meant the android app. I just found it crazy / amusing that someone took the time to develop one just for MoR. :pAh...

What stories, motherfucker? As funny as you are in other people's threads, I think you could make some lulzy crack!fics, if only you'd buckle down.Yeeeah... I probably should have included 'linear writing' in that previous post, along with drawing and animating. :D:(

It's faster to call them "my stories" than "my collections of related words that, were they in order with all the gaps filled, could actually be posted, a chapter at a time."

Also, I tend to write at least as much sentimental horseshit as I do comedy and violence. DLP would probably find it maddening.

I haven't read the first word of this story and have no plans to, so I couldn't care less except that it's generated three pages of posts in the first day, for what's apparently a shit story by a rank amateur, and a dick one at that.I haven't read it either... or, if I have read any of it, it's been so long ago that I've completely forgotten.

Somehow I doubt that, though; if I had ever read any of it, it would probably have ended up on my alert list... unless it totally sucked.

Someone endangering HP fanfic with their 'more bravado than brains' behavior concerns me, though. We'll just have to wait to find out whether the lawyers think, "Well, we've rid the village of the thief, so now we'll move on." or "You know, we could get rid of the thief and any other potential thieves, too, if we just burned down the entire fucking village."

One does have to consider the PR angle, though: A lawyer shutting down LessWrong's paper-4-pages scheme would be totally in the right. Any lawyer demanding all HP fic be expunged from FFN would possibly be in the right (though I argue that what normally goes on there is covered under fair use and should be untouchable under the law), but it would be a PR nightmare.

It wouldn't matter how right the legal team was, it would look like an obscenely wealthy, castle-livin', Goliath stomping all over the same bunch of harmless, adoring fans who lined the various property owners' pockets, both directly via purchases and indirectly by keeping Harry Potter buzz alive and at the forefront of people's minds (mostly through fan works). And, with Pottermore opening soon, it would stink of an all-too convenient way to eliminate a competing entertainment source, no matter how much of an ill-timed coincidence it really was.

Carmine
08-27-2011, 07:49 AM
If you check the history of his organization's fundraisers, you will find that it has received large donations from bigtime billionaires like Peter Thiel in the past, so I think that the notion that the $39k mostly comes from his pledge to update faster is unlikely.

True, but I doubt that's how WB will see it.

Taure
08-27-2011, 07:49 AM
If you check the history of his organization's fundraisers, you will find that it has received large donations from bigtime billionaires like Peter Thiel in the past, so I think that the notion that the $39k mostly comes from his pledge to update faster is unlikely.

The language of his bargain seemed pretty desperate to me. I believe he described the status of their fund raising efforts as "worrying". And then it doubles overnight.

Sesc
08-27-2011, 07:54 AM
I don't know about you, but I write my shit to be read, not to be dismissed because I'm tarred with the same brush as certain other members of this forum

NMB, so do I. But DLP has always been this way. It's part of the bargain, and it's nothing new. It was that way when I signed up, and it's that way now. I mean, personally, it was a reason I signed up (it was just after the Kinsfire/PP3-incident, IIRC) but leaving that aside -- I've yet to see someone saying they won't read my stories because I'm a member of DLP. I'd bet that the DLP-label gives you a net-gain, not a loss in readers.


Anyway, for me, one of the most satisfying reactions is "Despite the fact that this story is from DLP, I read it and liked it ..." ... I got a few of those. I wouldn't trade that or DLP's polarising reputation for anything. And you know the word about good and bad publicity :p

Nae'blis
08-27-2011, 08:06 AM
Plus, you yourself maintain the largest HP C2, directly tied to DLP. Didn't you say something like people were requesting you to add their stories in the C2 but they won't post it here for review? I don't think their hesitation stems from their hate towards DLP. They know the standards this site maintains for Harry Potter fanfics. ;)

Merrill II
08-27-2011, 08:09 AM
Here's what I want to see:

- Polite, well thought out e-mails to the individuals Taure has highlighted.
- Polite, well thought out discussion over the merits of Taure's effort to get Methods of Rationality removed.
- A thread that doesn't make me frown.

Here's what I am seeing:

- Responses to troll/sock puppet accounts, the content of which is generally over the top and defensive. There was really no need to beat a dead horse, nor was there a reason to engage either of the two individuals beyond a cursory 'Fuck you'.
- Over the top discussion between members.
- I am frowning.

It's one thing to snipe a troll, or to gang up on an individual, or to engage in a huge pissing contest. What this thread happens to be however is a gigantic sign pissing away DLP credibility--if not an effective method of recruiting more lemmings to piss away their money donating to the anti-Skynet people.

Have the discourse over the issue at hand; if you want to combat these people, do it somewhere else.

As for my opinion, I concur with Taure. There's plenty of ground to stand on and I dislike the idea of anyone generating money from someone else's hard work. Replace the words charity and NPO with slush fund and 'my bank account' and the reality becomes all too obvious.

Generation of money based on producing content for a work one doesn't own for anyone other than the owner is a cause for concern. I think at the very least a precedent or a response should come down for it.

Jon
08-27-2011, 08:18 AM
You people are what is wrong with DLP, didn't you see me telling you that this thread was now about me?

God you people are selfish.

Hall of Shamed.

Edit: Also, I'm leaning towards something in gold~