Heartless Rant

[Xiph0]

|*RANT WARNING*|

*Growls a little* This rant will seem.... lacking of morals( & spelling skills). I understand the United States of America has been a country based on Social Freedom from oppression [ of Europeans, but all things have to evolve, eh? ]. I view people with this outlook on America as no wiser then people who have yet to learn the horrors war brings. The United States of America has ascended to a seat among the Super-powers, as we call them, which is for another thread/rant. Should a government not do its very best to keep its soldiers alive? Should it supply them with ample equipment to protect themselves accordingly? and more over should it ever let politics or "ethics" get in the way of completing their mission and saving their citizens lives?


To answer a few in my own opinion:

>Yes, it should do its utmost to protect its soldiers. It should not buy more Humvees then are needed, no more tanks then are needed. It should not spend 100% more on the same product to earn favor with one company over the other. It should supply its soldiers with ample armor that guerilla fighting entails.

>Of course it should equip them or be thrown out of the capital for treason.

>No, ethics matter not in war. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"(cookie to the person who knows where the motto comes from)
If I was told that to save 2,000 American soldiers- 2,000 Japanese, British, Australian or Turkish soldiers( provided I was on their side, born there and all)- at the cost of Torture & the lives of the opponents citizens or comrades-in-arms, no matter if it was women, or children. not having independent thought [ brainwashed ] is no excuse to shoot one of my comrades. No matter what the cost it. would. be. worth. it. to save those lives of my fellow citizens and soldiers

[Xiph0]

Woah, much better ^^. :)

[Midknight]

Terezakiz(s?) said that wasn't it?

Our government at the moment is hopelessly corrupt. Most won't admit it, but most of our "leaders" that hold power in any major form are career politicians who owe favors out the ass to greedy corporations that paid loads of cash to get them where they are.

I don't think we really want honest politicians though, I'd settle for just not as utterly corrupt ones.

>No, ethics matter not in war.

Exactly. Maim, torture, castrate lil 8 year old Akbar if homeboy is holding information to the whereabouts of a nuclear bomb Bin Laden is planning on detonating, don't think for a minute if the situation was reversed our enemies wouldn't do that same, they decapitate our folks in broad daylight on camera, so anyone that has a problem with that statement, go watch a few torture videos Al-jahzeera has broadcast.

Hell the reason we're taking so many casualties over there is b/c alot of the fighting is going on in area where we're utterly fucked no matter what we do. Sadamn hid key military installations inside things marked deceptivly, they have insurgents now hiding in mosques, etc.

If we storm a school where dozens of them are hid out, kill a few kids, yet take out all the insurgents, we're hated by the world, and dozens more men join the fight against our evil. If we don't storm the school(or whatever place there are possibilities for HUGE casualties), we run the risk of loosing many of our men's lives, and the insurgents keep using those sorts of spots to hide. Collateral damage is acceptable, and has to be acceptable fighting guerilla style, otherwise we get our ass killed b/c we didn't fire while good old muhammad is using civilian's as meatshields popping our cars with RPG's. You cannot fight a war while being afraid of what the bean counters and judgmental fucks will "think" double-tap the lil 13 year old holding the AK-47 at your head without a seconded damned though of how the media will spin it and move on.

I think going over there was a bit pointless and very underplanned, with a piss poor implementation, by some idiot analyst who told the administration "Take out the head and the body(Iraq as a nation) will fall and nothing bad will happen" Anyone with 1/10th of a brain could of told him that going in as we did would end up very, very bad for everyone. I firmly believe that the presidunce didn't give a damn, he just wanted his war. Rather bothering the various connections him, dicky boy, Donald and co. have to the various weapons companies/contractors, etc.

[Xiph0]

Terezakiz(s?) said that wasn't it?



Nope.

Hint: This group, or cult, was active through the 8th century.

[Midknight]

well the quote originated with Hassan Sabah, but the group you're talking about I'd imagine is the great Knights Templar, or their mirror on the other side of the coin the Assassins.

[Necrule Paen]

The Knights Templar. Only group/cult I know of around that time.

And in accordance with that concept I have an idea of how this War on Terror should go.

For this idea to work we would need a Democrat as president and he orders for a removal of troops from the area.

Now this would piss off alot of people, but it would piss off a particular group of people, the extreme christian fundamentalists. The people I am talking about don't see the irony of bombing an abortion clinic and/or killing the people who work there because they want to preserve life. The ones that think that the American Christian Doctor who went to Israel and shot up people worshipping in a mosque had the right idea. These are the people who want the muslims out of Israel because one of the signs of the Apocalypse is for a church/temple to be built on a certain hill and a mosque is currently standing there.

So, get these people pissed off and then have people contact them about taking up the fight themselves, get them to go over there and kill some islamic infidels. Get thos Prussian Blue bitches to stop singing about killing Americans over here and start singing about killing terrorists over there.

Everyone is always saying that the Middle East is a hot bed for terrorism, but ignore the fact that so is good ol' USA. I say lets tap into this cess pool and turn it to our advantage. Fight Fundamentalist with Fundamentalist. Christian against Islamic. You know the Jewish fundies will get involved if that happens and if the fighting reaches the Indo-Pakistani borders then the Hindu fundies may jump in too. Then we can all just stand back and watch, hoping they all kill each other and call it The Fundamental War. :twisted: Horrible pun I know.

But serious, why waste all these good men and women when we have plenty of people who we won't mind if they leave the gene pool permanently?

[ip82]

Err... You're just forgetting two things:

1) Your soldiers are (as far as I know) professionals. Meaning they had willingly accepted to join the marines/army and get paid for it. So I really don't see what the big fuss is with "our boys are sent into war etc"... If they were conscripts (like in Vietnam) that would be understandable, but the way I see it, they are just professionals doing the job they had applied for. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I honestly don't see what the big deal is.

2) If it's OK to torture kids for information, fight fundamentalism with fundamentalism, etc., then why are you all crying about terrorists when they are doing exactly the same thing? How can you keep your moral highground and keep condeming the terrorists, when you're suggesting to do the same thing?

Killing civilians and torturing war prissoners is wrong, no matter which side does it (or which one first started it). If you start acting the way they do, it would only get worse, especially if you're (officialy) trying to stop fundametalism and leave the country in peace.

Remember, no one particulary likes to die. Terrorism (suicide bombers, martyrs...) are just equalizer against American superior technology. If some ultra-powerful technologically-superior alliens were to occupy America and try to make all the males cut their balls off, and your normal army can't even touch them, I bet many of you guys would decide to sacrifice your lives against the 'great evil'...

What I'm trying to say is that there would be much less Islamic fundamentalists willing to sacrifice themselves if you just wouldn't try and meddle with their lives. Action and reaction, the common law of universe...

[Xiph0]

What I'm trying to say is that there would be much less Islamic fundamentalists willing to sacrifice themselves if you just wouldn't try and meddle with their lives.

Bullshit, the Cole was bombed before Iraq started. They hate us through and through( fundies ). We've opened our borders and let them in, gave them a chance to live here, we're "open-minded" but No. What do they decide is a good idea? Bomb a U.S. Naval ship without provacation. As I see it they had it coming, not the civilians but definetly the fundies, fuckers asked for it.

[Antivash]

Xiph.. I think you're overlooking something with the border situation... First, we didn't TRUELY open them.. it was a PR thing... we were still shipping people back... and second.. If you were born somewhere and lived there all your life would you just up and abandon your country and people to go and live in only minutely better conditions? ... i somehow doubt it... Whether or not they come theyre still going to be poor and struggling to provide for themselves however they just dun have to worry about being caught in some idiot blowing himself up for the invisible man in the sky... just the idiot kids shooting each other up over smack....

and its my opinion that the world hates us [America] because we're greed stupid arrogant assholes who SAY we care and want to help but do nothing but sit and complain about gas prices and idiot leaders....i mean we can barely help the Katrina victims at the moment.. who are we supposed to help the world

[Midknight]

Err... You're just forgetting two things:

1) Your soldiers are (as far as I know) professionals. Meaning they had willingly accepted to join the marines/army and get paid for it. So I really don't see what the big fuss is with "our boys are sent into war etc"... If they were conscripts (like in Vietnam) that would be understandable, but the way I see it, they are just professionals doing the job they had applied for. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I honestly don't see what the big deal is.

You work at a burger shop, your job is feeding meat to the grinder. You go through basic training in the grinder and accept the fact that you may loose a finger or two in a lifetime of feeding it, but good decisions keep it from becoming a large chance. Your boss constantly checks intel on the grinder, and rotates whomever's running it to minimuze the risk of loss.

You change management, new manager sticks you in a room full of rusty grinders, without safety guards, with a blindfold on, for months at a time past when you are promised to come out. Yeah you signed up to do that job, but you were under the assumption your boss would be doing everything possible to maintain safety, and not needlessly toss away your fingers/life. Really rough analogy, but *shrug*


2) If it's OK to torture kids for information, fight fundamentalism with fundamentalism, etc., then why are you all crying about terrorists when they are doing exactly the same thing? How can you keep your moral highground and keep condeming the terrorists, when you're suggesting to do the same thing?

Information yes, ideals, no. The terrorists aren't torturing folks for intel, they're doing it simply for shock value and to demoralize the public. My point was fucking worldwide media condemned the US for picture of some stupid ass light light torture, yet they just barely show disgust when our guys get decapped on video.

If Gunners Mate Johnson has intel on where troops you want to go suicide bomb are, and he won't tell you, then it's just fine to slap his ass in a naked man pyramid. In war anything goes and you have to be willing to do what must be done t get results. Holding back because of what someone might "think" just results in deaths.


Remember, no one particulary likes to die. Terrorism (suicide bombers, martyrs...) are just equalizer against American superior technology. If some ultra-powerful technologically-superior alliens were to occupy America and try to make all the males cut their balls off, and your normal army can't even touch them, I bet many of you guys would decide to sacrifice your lives against the 'great evil'...

No it's not those sick fucks are brainwashed into thinking what they do is great, that they get brides in heaven, etc, despite the act of taking a life goes against everything they supposedly believe in. Islam is supposedly the most peaceful religion, I'm still trying to figure out how.


What I'm trying to say is that there would be much less Islamic fundamentalists willing to sacrifice themselves if you just wouldn't try and meddle with their lives. Action and reaction, the common law of universe...

I'm not even going to touch that. I'm sure the folks who died in WTC deserved what they got, b/c we meddled sometime, somewhere. You can't rationalise sick bastards who have no problem wiping out as many civilians as it takes to make themselves felt.

[Giovanni]

Most of the troops being sent to Iraq now are at the "C4" or 'lowest' state of readiness because they don't have the equiptment at their own bases to train with.

Lets face it, when the army went into Iraq they were trained for conventional pitched battle combat, not urban warfare.

On the subject of injuries, I agree. My (i forget what degree) Cousin is an Army doctor, and some of the injuries she has had to do surgery for are ridiculous. She was telling me about them during Thanksgiving. The majority of the injuries she see's and treats everyday are as severe as they are because the soldiers vehicles either did not have the proper armor; or because modern medical technology was just so good that it could keep a person who would have gone down as a fatality 20 years ago, alive.

[Midknight]

Ask her about all the injuries I'm sure they've treated from shoddily put together armor. My cousin in law Brian is over there now as a transport chopper pilot, he says the vests they give those guys may as well be paper, for all the good they do. Something about how they're rated to withstand the rounds at long distance, but up close it just goes right through the stuff. When the majority of the fire they take is mortor, RPG, or high impact explosives, the pathetic armor on those overpriced pathetic APC's doesn't help either.

Go look at the Bradley's history, one of the most prevelant fighting vehicles over there, and you'll find the project was so plagued with constant use of underrated, lowest cost possible stuff, they even made a movie about it. Supposely parts of it were swapped out, but I've seen vids of those things just getting assraped over there by guys with RPG's

Same basic problem as in Vietnam, our military has grown accustomed to our military might being a major deterrant. When it comes down to guerilla warfare, the US hasn't got a fucking clue how to fight it. How do you fight someone who has no qualms about killing himself so long as he takes you with him, regardless of if he takes innocents along with the two of you, when you're scared a richocheted bullet might cause a flesh wound on some idiot standing there gawking?

[ip82]

About US troops...

Foreign interventions has been US policy ever since WWII. Each of those soldiers grew up hearing about various wars the marine corps had fought over the decades. I agree that there's always a matter of how the army is treating their troops, but you can't convince me that any of those men had joined the army under impression that he would spend his career in barrackes back home, with an occasional drill overseas...

But ok, I agree that army could be streching their troops too thin...

About terrorism...

I'm just saying that the countries targeted by terrorism today (US and it's allies) must have done something pretty bad to piss Muslims off enough to start training/brainwashing martyrs.

Logic states that there HAS to be some reason for them to be that desperate. Whatever your religion says (and Islam predates terrorisam - 30-40 years ago no one even knew what the word "terrorist" meant), you don't sacrifice your life just for the kicks of it. If it was that easy to brainwash someone into a perfect suicide soldier, everyone would be doing it.

As for Islam not being peacful... I think you're all missing a point here. Terrorism has nothing to do with Islam itself. Religion is just a way to further brainwash those poor sods and give them some reward for their effort (in a form of afterlife with virgins etc). Any religion can be used for that purpose (remember Kamikazes in Japan). But for it to work, there HAS to be some real purpose behind it. In WWII, it was Japan's desperate position in the war against America. In the Middle East, I beleive it's the same thing with US today and it's allies.

So, yes, terrorists are a bunch of evil brainwashed goat-fuckers. But if you weren't occupying their country (or supporting Israel, screwing them over oil for decades, etc.), they would simply keep fucking their goats peacfully, no matter what their priests or warmongerers said.

So sorry, but I'm sticking to my action/reaction theory.

[Giovanni]

Same basic problem as in Vietnam, our military has grown accustomed to our military might being a major deterrant. When it comes down to guerilla warfare, the US hasn't got a fucking clue how to fight it.

Put bluntly the US Military has become Great Britain Circa 1812.

I mean lets face it, we use vastly outdated military strategies and tactics. While they may have been effective 50 years ago, war has changed since then. There are two ways to effectively quell an insurgency in an urban area.

#1. Flood the entire country with so many troops that the effectiveness of such an insurgency is reduced to a managable level.

#2. Take away popular support...

Option #2 can be accomplished in several ways:

a) By not randomly detaining people
b) By not randomly shooting people
c) By not randomly torturing the inhabitants of said country
d) By not treating the population like shit.


Unfortunately the USA has refused to do either option and is instead going with the option known as the "Close our eye's and hope it goes away" method. It is an interesting one that involves using to few troops and abusing the local population then refusing to acknowledge problems while trying to cover your own ass. It hasn't worked yet... But that hasn't stopped Our Preznit from trying it :/

[Midknight]

Same basic problem as in Vietnam, our military has grown accustomed to our military might being a major deterrant. When it comes down to guerilla warfare, the US hasn't got a fucking clue how to fight it.

Put bluntly the US Military has become Great Britain Circa 1812.

I mean lets face it, we use vastly outdated military strategies and tactics. While they may have been effective 50 years ago, war has changed since then. There are two ways to effectively quell an insurgency in an urban area.

#1. Flood the entire country with so many troops that the effectiveness of such an insurgency is reduced to a managable level.

#2. Take away popular support...

Option #2 can be accomplished in several ways:

a) By not randomly detaining people
b) By not randomly shooting people
c) By not randomly torturing the inhabitants of said country
d) By not treating the population like shit.


Unfortunately the USA has refused to do either option and is instead going with the option known as the "Close our eye's and hope it goes away" method. It is an interesting one that involves using to few troops and abusing the local population then refusing to acknowledge problems while trying to cover your own ass. It hasn't worked yet... But that hasn't stopped Our Preznit from trying it :/

I find it interesting that you choose that to reply to instead of

But if you weren't occupying their country (or supporting Israel, screwing them over oil for decades, etc.), they would simply keep fucking their goats peacfully, no matter what their priests or warmongerers said.

Was actually wanting to see what you had to say on that.

[Xiph0]

So, yes, terrorists are a bunch of evil brainwashed goat-fuckers. But if you weren't occupying their country (or supporting Israel, screwing them over oil for decades, etc.), they would simply keep fucking their goats peacfully, no matter what their priests or warmongerers said.


Yah, so then why did they bomb the Trade center? Huh?! Why?! We weren't occupying them then. Fuck man, get your shit straight, supporting who we want doesn't make killing lawful or justified, no matter what some twisted ignorant fuckhead says.

About terrorism...

I'm just saying that the countries targeted by terrorism today (US and it's allies) must have done something pretty bad to piss Muslims off enough to start training/brainwashing martyrs.


Arabs, and muslims alike have been fucking with the U.S. since its birth. It was either Franklin, or Jefferson, that had to deal with them. I forget which country, but it was most definetly muslim. They enslaved white-american merchant sailors at the very beginning of the U.S. as we know it. He was sent and asked them why they did it and what right did they have to do so. They said the Qur'an says you are infidels, therefore we are well in our rights to enslave you. Whoever it was didn't take that well and the U.S. sent the navy to bomb the countrys port and rescure the sailors, which they did.



So sorry, but I'm sticking to my action/reaction theory.

Not sorry, this seems narrow-minded to me. Like you will not entertain anyone elses thoughts and consider them to actually have basis and fact-backup.


Logic states that there HAS to be some reason for them to be that desperate. Whatever your religion says (and Islam predates terrorisam - 30-40 years ago no one even knew what the word "terrorist" meant),

YOUR logic. We think differently. My logic, for instance, tells me that blowing us up with guerilla tactics seems to them the only working strategy they have, and that theyd keep something that works. " If it isn't broken, dont fix it "

you don't sacrifice your life just for the kicks of it. If it was that easy to brainwash someone into a perfect suicide soldier, everyone would be doing it.

Bullshit, every barbarian society is doing it, and they were/are - imperial japan. Democratic & Federalist societys however, revolt when that sort of business happens, and that is not very good for the Corps that run the democratic countries of the world, notably the U.S.

Even the Nazis drugged their soldiers to be fearless, suicidal soldiers using Meth. (fact, look it up)


Any religion can be used for that purpose (remember Kamikazes in Japan). But for it to work, there HAS to be some real purpose behind it. In WWII, it was Japan's desperate position in the war against America.
Buddihism, and Confuciousism (major Japaneese religions at the time ] played no role whatsoever in the Kamikazees logic. The Kamikazees we're brainwashed into thinking we would rape their women&children as soon as we invaded on land.(fact) They also recruited with the promise of slave-girls [ conscripted women for soldier-brothels, bastardous barbarianism]. Most kamikazees we're under the belief they we're there generations Samurai.

Religion is just a way to further brainwash those poor sods and give them some reward for their effort (in a form of afterlife with virgins etc).
Its the GCF among the population they are recruiting from. The religion itself brainwashes them, not the leaders of Al-queda or the Taliban.


In the Middle East, I beleive it's the same thing with US today and it's allies.
Last time I checked the Christian-Right wasn't recruiting for the Army, what are they gonna say " Christ Compels you to spread Christianity through violence "? No one will believe that bullshit except an ignorant, neoconservatist.

As for Islam not being peacful... I think you're all missing a point here. Terrorism has nothing to do with Islam itself.

Actually, Islam has quiet a bit to do "with" Terrorism. When the Qur'an states that they will get 72 virgins if they kill the infidels, and they worship this book then kill us, that entitles "has to do with Islam " me comrade.

[ip82]

Xiph0: Calm down, man, you're gonna pop a vein. Whatever you or I say here is totally irrelevant, so there's no need to get all excited.

Yah, so then why did they bomb the Trade center? Huh?! Why?! We weren't occupying them then. Fuck man, get your shit straight, supporting who we want doesn't make killing lawful or justified, no matter what some twisted ignorant fuckhead says.

You weren't occupying them, but you WERE strongly backing up Israel against them. You were just speaking how in a war everything is allowed. My enemy's ally is also my enemy, so yeah, you were legit target.

Oh and I'm not justifying terrorist attacks against civilians, or any kinds of attacks at all. Nothing about war can be justifyed in any way.

I'm just trying to see things from their point of view. You don't actually beleive they are "evil" and you are "good"? They also have their motivation and reasonong and I bet that from their POV, their actions are perfectly justified and good.

Arabs, and muslims alike have been fucking with the U.S. since its birth. It was either Franklin, or Jefferson, that had to deal with them. I forget which country, but it was most definetly muslim. They enslaved white-american merchant sailors at the very beginning of the U.S. as we know it. He was sent and asked them why they did it and what right did they have to do so. They said the Qur'an says you are infidels, therefore we are well in our rights to enslave you. Whoever it was didn't take that well and the U.S. sent the navy to bomb the countrys port and rescure the sailors, which they did.

The conflict between Christianity and Islaam is much older than America. Ther will always be fanatics on both sides. Muslims could just as easily say that those sailor's ancestors were raping their women during one of the crusades...

People can dislike this or that country, but no one would actively attack it (least of all give his life) without a good reason.

Not sorry, this seems narrow-minded to me. Like you will not entertain anyone elses thoughts and consider them to actually have basis and fact-backup.

No, actually, I'm considering your oppinions as well and agree with some points.

It's actually much more likely for me to accept your ideas then for you to listen to mine, coz I'm not emotionally involved with this war. It's only logical for you guys to cheer for your own side in this war, but I, on the other hand, am more or less indiferent regarding it's sides. I could just as easily defend America's side, but seeing how you all are Americans, I had decided to point out a few things you are conveniently forgetting in your bias.

YOUR logic. We think differently. My logic, for instance, tells me that blowing us up with guerilla tactics seems to them the only working strategy they have, and that theyd keep something that works. " If it isn't broken, dont fix it "

Guerilla tactics is always used when fighting a superior opponent. It's standard rule of combat and has nothing to do with muslims or the Middle East.

Suicide attacks are what happens when someone is forced to use guerilla tactics for 50+ years. Their "weapons" evolve the same way as yours do.

Bullshit, every barbarian society is doing it, and they were/are - imperial japan. Democratic & Federalist societys however, revolt when that sort of business happens, and that is not very good for the Corps that run the democratic countries of the world, notably the U.S.

Even the Nazis drugged their soldiers to be fearless, suicidal soldiers using Meth. (fact, look it up)

Every barbaric society? Oh, I shudder to think about all those african, south american, and indian suicide bombers just waiting for you...

This has nothing to do with society, but with need. Are you trying to tell me that nazi Germany and imperialistic Japan were barbaric? They were the most powerful contries of their time, for christs sake. They only started using these methods when they started loosing WWII and became desperate.

Yes, you COULD brainwash someone to kill himself against your enemies but only if you start training him from an infant stage (like in that movie "the Soldier"). But I don't think any society today is doing something like that. For normal terrorist training to work they must have some real enemy jumping on their balls to direct their hate at.

Little mind experiment: They order some terrorist guy to kill himself in an attack against China (or Zimbabwe or Brasil...). Would he do it on his own free will, like he would against America?

Buddihism, and Confuciousism (major Japaneese religions at the time ] played no role whatsoever in the Kamikazees logic. The Kamikazees we're brainwashed into thinking we would rape their women&children as soon as we invaded on land.(fact) They also recruited with the promise of slave-girls [ conscripted women for soldier-brothels, bastardous barbarianism]. Most kamikazees we're under the belief they we're there generations Samurai.

I was speaking more about some promise of afterlife or any kind of reward after sacrificing yourself.

Anyway, I've just prooved my point - religion has nothing to do with suicide attackers. It helps, but it's not neccesary.

Its the GCF among the population they are recruiting from. The religion itself brainwashes them, not the leaders of Al-queda or the Taliban.

I guess it's one of those "Guns don't kill people, people do" things...

Religion is a tool used by their leaders to brainwash them... So, whether you say it's Talibans or religion brainwashing them, you're right.

Last time I checked the Christian-Right wasn't recruiting for the Army, what are they gonna say " Christ Compels you to spread Christianity through violence "? No one will believe that bullshit except an ignorant, neoconservatist.

Oh, so I'm an ignorant neo-conservatist? How did you come up with that? Oh, that's right, someone disagrees with you, so he must be ignorant, coz you're of course all-knowledgable. But it's that neo-conservatist thing that's baffling me. I never realized I wanted to conserve things that badly, but thanks for letting me know. Too bad it has nothing to do with the discusion at hand.

As for religions, the West don't need religion reigning people in when they have cash, power and corporate interests. It's only a matter of money and comfortable lifestyle - poor people don't have any so they turn to religion. In this case, that religion just happens to be Islam. Any other monoteistic religion could work in it's place, coz they are all more or less copied from each other.

Actually, Islam has quiet a bit to do "with" Terrorism. When the Qur'an states that they will get 72 virgins if they kill the infidels, and they worship this book then kill us, that entitles "has to do with Islam " me comrade.

You could also say that towels have everything to do with terrorism, since the terrorists wrap them around their heads, so they should all be burned.

Yes, in this particular case Islam is used in training terrorists, but as you already pointed out, other things were used throughout the time to achieve the same goal. What I was saying was that Islam is not necceserily violent or terroristic religion. Don't get me wrong, I also don't like muslims and don't like Islam, but objectively speaking, it's the same shit as Christianity only with different flavour.

[Xiph0]

Xiph0: Calm down, man, you're gonna pop a vein. Whatever you or I say here is totally irrelevant, so there's no need to get all excited.
*yawn* Fustrating topic, touchy.



Oh, so I'm an ignorant neo-conservatist? How did you come up with that? Oh, that's right, someone disagrees with you, so he must be ignorant, coz you're of course all-knowledgable. But it's that neo-conservatist thing that's baffling me. I never realized I wanted to conserve things that badly, but thanks for letting me know. Too bad it has nothing to do with the discusion at hand.

Uh dude.. I think I put that wrong. What I meant by only a neocon would go for that was that our Army, recruiting with that slogan, would only get ignorant neo-conservatives or someone more then likely from a neocon family/influence.

As for religions, the West don't need religion reigning people in when they have cash, power and corporate interests.
Mutters : Not to mention an assload of freedoms.

It's only a matter of money and comfortable lifestyle - poor people don't have any so they turn to religion.
Churches get all kinds, atleast the few different [ baptist, evangel, mormon even ] ones I've been to/visited. I see your point, just pointed out that here your more likely to find a middle-class person [ even in rural areas ] in church.


In this case, that religion just happens to be Islam. Any other monoteistic religion could work in it's place, coz they are all more or less copied from each other.

True, as demonstrated buetifully by the Crusades.


Yes, in this particular case Islam is used in training terrorists, but as you already pointed out, other things were used throughout the time to achieve the same goal.

Unless I mis-interperted Islam teaches the Qur'an, which was respondsible for the Colonial-time problem I pointed out? ( Was that what you were refering to? )


Actually, Islam has quiet a bit to do "with" Terrorism. When the Qur'an states that they will get 72 virgins if they kill the infidels, and they worship this book then kill us, that entitles "has to do with Islam " me comrade.

You could also say that towels have everything to do with terrorism, since the terrorists wrap them around their heads, so they should all be burned.



How so? Towels are not motivation... there symbolic - as far as I know. However, the promise of 72 virgins - if you believe it - is pretty damn motivating. If this comes from the teachings of Islam and thus the Qur'an then I fail to see how someone couldn't make the connection.

What I was saying was that Islam is not necceserily violent or terroristic religion. Don't get me wrong, I also don't like muslims and don't like Islam, but objectively speaking, it's the same shit as Christianity only with different flavour.[

lol, I did get you wrong. * scratches forehead * Christianity has been the motive- to a degree - I still maintain that those who cannot form their own opinion and succomd to brainwashing aren't fit to live - for countless slaughters, which I can start listing ( list pasted to my wall ), and so has Islam. I can't and will not even try to justify my government. Morality, however, is basically being forced into military tactical doctrine, which is what sparked this whole thread.


You weren't occupying them, but you WERE strongly backing up Israel against them. You were just speaking how in a war everything is allowed. My enemy's ally is also my enemy, so yeah, you were legit target.

So, following that logic, if we can prove to the UN that Iran &/or Saudi Arabia supports/funds/trains/ hides terrorists, we would be justified to invade them
:?:

I'm just trying to see things from their point of view. You don't actually beleive they are "evil" and you are "good"? They also have their motivation and reasonong and I bet that from their POV, their actions are perfectly justified and good.


Thats why Ally & Opponent work better. Somewhere, someone can justify any action you make, no matter how brilliant or depraved.

People can dislike this or that country, but no one would actively attack it (least of all give his life) without a good reason.

If that was an absolute-law statement ( which I know wasn't the intent ) then the 9/11 bombers would have had a valid reason to take 100s of 1000s of lifes, correct? To play judge? They disliked us & actively attacked us without a reason of equal worth -to any person in the world that has a clear-mind- to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of humans.


Suicide attacks are what happens when someone is forced to use guerilla tactics for 50+ years. Their "weapons" evolve the same way as yours do.


Two words bro, Swamp Foxes ( thats what they were called, right? ). It was a small guerilla group during the revolutionary war used in the fight against Great Britain. WWI might have had some pitched combat but for the most part it was guerilla, no? As was WWII... thats roughly a hundred year span of evolving guerilla tactics, perhaps its because we're democratic that we havent " evolved " to killing ourselves? Not likely, maybe, but not likely. We would have to know where the insurgents were to effectively car/suicide bomb them, which makes it such a deadly weapon in their hands.



Guerilla tactics is always used when fighting a superior opponent. It's standard rule of combat and has nothing to do with muslims or the Middle East.

I understand that :roll: "" If it isn't broken, dont fix it "" Standard rules are typically tactically correct moves.

This has nothing to do with society, but with need. Are you trying to tell me that nazi Germany and imperialistic Japan were barbaric? They were the most powerful contries of their time, for christs sake. They only started using these methods when they started loosing WWII and became desperate.

Not sure if "desperate " would work with the meth'd troops, as I have no clue as to when he started that, unless you do? As far as I was aware the suicide pilots were a tactic they implemented throughout, not just in the final throws. Not nessecarily Nazi-Germany as barbaric, but the seppuku [ ritual suicide ] does seem a barbaric ritual to implement into modern warfare. Having your government support and urge on more nationialism for that concept - comparing themselves to samurai and thus adopting a few of the honor codes themselves .


Yes, you COULD brainwash someone to kill himself against your enemies but only if you start training him from an infant stage

Ok, check out this scenario. Your parents raise you in church, your church & bible tell you the muslim barbarians are sinners and must be swept from the earth in the only way possible. This is drilled into your skull until the friendly Monarch [thinking crusades era, 'scuse ] makes a speech saying hes gthering people to go do just that - wipe them off the planet by whatever means nessecary & tells you - wether its lies or the truth - that the only way of possibly winning is self sacrafice. Would you honestly not do it ? This might be proving one of your points - I think it is; With the troops walking the streets, mosques' priests can easily say that we are the scum(read infidel ) that needs cleansing.



They order some terrorist guy to kill himself in an attack against China (or Zimbabwe or Brasil...). Would he do it on his own free will, like he would against America

The friend of my enemy is my enemy. See Madrid, Spain and London, United Kingdom.


I could just as easily defend America's side, but seeing how you all are Americans, I had decided to point out a few things you are conveniently forgetting in your bias.

Rants are commonly - if not always - biased.

* headache hasnt subsided *

[ip82]

Unless I mis-interperted Islam teaches the Qur'an, which was respondsible for the Colonial-time problem I pointed out? ( Was that what you were refering to? )

I've never read Qur`an or Bible, so I can't comment on that. But all these books were written 2000 years ago. Of course there are shitty parts. It's also a question of how many times they were reedited by over-ethusiastic priest throughout the history.

How so? Towels are not motivation... there symbolic - as far as I know. However, the promise of 72 virgins - if you believe it - is pretty damn motivating. If this comes from the teachings of Islam and thus the Qur'an then I fail to see how someone couldn't make the connection.

Wait, are you telling me that 72 virgins are actually written inside the Qur`an and not just some priest's fantasy? Coz if that's true, Islam is more fucked up than I ever imagined.

So, following that logic, if we can prove to the UN that Iran &/or Saudi Arabia supports/funds/trains/ hides terrorists, we would be justified to invade them

If you prove that their goverment is actively training or funding the terrorists and there is no way to stop them with sanctions and blocking off their borders, then UN would have every right to attack that country.

Mind you, none of that happened with Iraq. Afganistan was more or less OK, except for going over UN, but even now there's no proof that Iraq had been supporting terrorists or planning any moves against US and it's allies.

Two words bro, Swamp Foxes ( thats what they were called, right? ). It was a small guerilla group during the revolutionary war used in the fight against Great Britain. WWI might have had some pitched combat but for the most part it was guerilla, no? As was WWII... thats roughly a hundred year span of evolving guerilla tactics, perhaps its because we're democratic that we havent " evolved " to killing ourselves? Not likely, maybe, but not likely. We would have to know where the insurgents were to effectively car/suicide bomb them, which makes it such a deadly weapon in their hands.

I was thinking more of a civil war and resistance groups in occupied region, not classical close-pitched battles.

This has nothing to do with society, but with need. Are you trying to tell me that nazi Germany and imperialistic Japan were barbaric? They were the most powerful contries of their time, for christs sake. They only started using these methods when they started loosing WWII and became desperate.

Not sure if "desperate " would work with the meth'd troops, as I have no clue as to when he started that, unless you do? As far as I was aware the suicide pilots were a tactic they implemented throughout, not just in the final throws. Not nessecarily Nazi-Germany as barbaric, but the seppuku [ ritual suicide ] does seem a barbaric ritual to implement into modern warfare. Having your government support and urge on more nationialism for that concept - comparing themselves to samurai and thus adopting a few of the honor codes themselves .

I know that Japan started using Kamikazes only after Americans totally whooped their arses at sea and started taking over their islands.

As for whether some ritual is barbaric or not, it's only a matter of oppinion and culture where are you from. I really couldn't speak coz I'm from more or less the same culture as you are, but I bet that some Japanese or Chinese would find some of our customs "barbaric"...

Ok, check out this scenario. Your parents raise you in church, your church & bible tell you the muslim barbarians are sinners and must be swept from the earth in the only way possible. This is drilled into your skull until the friendly Monarch [thinking crusades era, 'scuse ] makes a speech saying hes gthering people to go do just that - wipe them off the planet by whatever means nessecary & tells you - wether its lies or the truth - that the only way of possibly winning is self sacrafice. Would you honestly not do it ? This might be proving one of your points - I think it is; With the troops walking the streets, mosques' priests can easily say that we are the scum(read infidel ) that needs cleansing.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You can brainwash someone, but not without SOME sort of motive in his surrounding.

That's what my comment about Brasilians and Zimbabweans was about - However much they tried, priests couldn't just brainwash their beleivers into hating someone whom they've never met and who never did anything to harm them, never interfered, never activly supported their enemies etc...

That's what my comment about action and reaction was all about, NOT about people from towers deserving to die, to wash America's sins away, or some bullshit like that...

[Xiph0]

How so? Towels are not motivation... there symbolic - as far as I know. However, the promise of 72 virgins - if you believe it - is pretty damn motivating. If this comes from the teachings of Islam and thus the Qur'an then I fail to see how someone couldn't make the connection.

Wait, are you telling me that 72 virgins are actually written inside the Qur`an and not just some priest's fantasy? Coz if that's true, Islam is more fucked up than I ever imagined.

I could be dreadfully wrong, but I'd put my money on it being in the Qur'an. I know I heard that on a debate show I trust but I cant freakin remember which one or station!~ :evil:

[Necrule Paen]

For them is a Sustenance
Determined,

Fruits (Delights); and they
(shall enjoy) honour and dignity,

In Gardens of Felicity,
Facing eah other
On Thrones (of dignity)

Round will be passed
To them a Cup
From a clear-flowing fountain,

Crystal-white, of a taste
Delicious to those
Who drink (thereof),

Free from headiness;
Nor will they suffer
Intoxication therefrom.

And beside them will be
Chaste women, restraining
Their glances, with big eyes
(Of wonder and beauty).

Gardens of Eternity,
Whose doors will (ever)
Be open to them;

Therein will they
Recline (at ease) ;
Therein can they
Call (at pleasure)
For fruit in abundance,
And (delicious) drink;

And beside them will be
Chaste women restraining
Their glances, (companions)
Of equal age.

Those are the two portions that talk about virgins in Heaven. There is no actual number of how many virgins you get, it may be one it may be a billion. However there are alot of muslims primarily the educated who do not take this account literally. They point out that at the time of Muhammad and continuing on to when the Qu'ran was written down, Mysticism was in vogue and religious teachers tended to speak of such things as God, Heaven and Hell in a material fashion to help bridge the gap to understanding something that transdescends our comprehension. But of course we are talking about Fundamentalists who take their Book literally.

[Xiph0]

Never ending wine , big eyed virgins of my own age, no hangovers, thrown of diginity, awfully tempting when you feel life has wronged you.

[Midknight]

Wait, are you telling me that 72 virgins are actually written inside the Qur`an and not just some priest's fantasy? Coz if that's true, Islam is more fucked up than I ever imagined.


"The Koran (Sura 9:19) says that there are three things that attract more rewards than all others: belief in Allah, belief in the Last Day, and Jihad, holy war. It is recorded in Hadith, the book covering Muhammad's precepts, actions, and life, which is second in authority only to the Koran, that "the last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them." It goes on to say that Jihad (holy war) is "the best method of earning (blessings) both spiritual and temporal. If victory is won, there is enormous booty If there is defeat or death, there is everlasting paradise." The least one in the Muslim "paradise" is promised eighty thousand servants and seventy-two virgins for perpetual sexual pleasure."

Also, an indepth article with direct quotes from the book as well as info on where to find them in the books.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,631357,00.html

I stand by my claim of Islam can technically be called one of the more peaceful religions, but you have nutter fucking countries that look at the assbackwards parts of it, and use it to keep women under lock and key, execute children, rape underaged girls, etc. Do a google in Iran and islam and virgins and see what you get.

This has nothing to do with society, but with need. Are you trying to tell me that nazi Germany and imperialistic Japan were barbaric? They were the most powerful contries of their time, for christs sake. They only started using these methods when they started loosing WWII and became desperate.


Japan - They really didn't have much of a choice except to suicide bomb from planes. They'd cause as much damage as possible in the sky, run out of munitions, then they'd pretty much be f-ed.

Nazi - I hope you mean something other then how I read that. The millions of Jews being placed into deathcamps and tortured in the name of science wasn't barbaric at all, I must of been mistaked. Hitler sacrified countless number of his own troops in a winter invasion by sending them in ultra light gear, because his personal prophet told him the winter would be the lightest ever. He slaughtered folks for not having the right genes.

America is the world power now, but if it became commonplace to murder all of a specific race/color combination, we'd be barbaric as well.

Also, lets keep this civil folks, I'm 100% against allowing politic and religon discussions here as it always eventually degrades into a situation where someone has to threaten to pimpslap someone to behave and play nice with others.

Theres a small difference between heated discussion and arguing.

[Xiph0]

The soldiers in Iraq have once again managed to piss me off....
Link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/30/baby.noor/index.html)

The child captured the hearts of members of the the Georgia National Guard after they raided her Baghdad home during a routine "knock-and-search" three weeks ago.

Yah, thatd be the time I'd be getting emotional with a potential bomber... :roll:

the baby's unflinching grandmother thrust the little girl at the Americans,

Smart move, f-ckin hag.

"I really wanted to help her as much as possible," Donnelly said Friday. "So what I did was all I could do, really, and see what happens from there."

"I feel like God put me here to help this little girl so, that pretty much makes my whole trip here worth it."

Is this guy daft? 1. Your there to help fellow soldiers, not civilians who may have aided your opponent, stick to the job god damnit. 2. Your not on a trip, your invading a country and securing it, dont delusion yourself making it sound like a vacation.

"I saw this child as the firstborn child of the young mother and father, and really, all I could think of was my five children back at home and my young daughter," Morgan said. "And I knew if I had the opportunity whatsoever to save my daughter's life, I would do everything possible.



Say it with me now, "In - Vasion " You cant trust anybody.

The soldiers began visiting the family at night, so insurgents wouldn't retaliate against the family for speaking with Americans.

Great way to get civilian support guys, show special treatment. On the otherhand it might bolster U.S. support, so I'm iffy on that one..


The soldiers also brought Noor to a U.S. military base for medical examinations and enlisted the help of friends and charities in the United States to get her the surgery that could save her life.

Only to take off the babys blanket and find C4 duct taped to her, and the next they saw was flame and... oh say 40 soldiers die? Smart, really smart.

[Zevrillion]

That sounds more like some lame ass propaganda.

I find it interesting that all the thing the anti-Muslims, pro-Americans says can be turn around.

e.g.

The Muslims are fanatics:

You swear on the bible in Court.
America has Creationists that believes Humans lived peacefully with Dinosaurs.
Some blows up hospitals because they perform abortions.


10.000 Americans have died because of WTC and the war in Iraq:

500.000 children died in Iraq because of economical sanctions, made primarily by US. Countless of others have died as a consequence of US.



If you are not an American, you start to wonder, what the fuck you are complaining about. If I lived in the Middle East, I would probable be thinking America was the fundamentalists.


And you say they don’t have any reason. When you twist those numbers and make it look like ALL Americans are behind it, it’s no wonder they want to bomb you.


That might look a little bit to anti-America, but it's what most people think when they see those things. I think the numbers and so looks very weird to a lot of Europeans.


About Islam Vs Christianity.

Both religions such. They were created to explain the unexplainable. Thousand of years old. They were also written so everyone could relate to it.

And seriously, there isn't any fundamentalist that take their books latterly.

The leader read the damn books like we read HP fanfiction. Than he chooses something that would be good for him. In this case the leader is gay, so he chooses HP/DM slash.

After that, the leader searches for people he can convert to his beliefs. After finding some tragic little girl at 14, the brainwashing starts. And a half year later; the leader sends the girl and 4 lbs of C4 to Lord Rawenclaw's server...And bam! No more DLP.net.

[Midknight]

Yes, because imposing economic sancations on a country to try to force their leader to stop murdering his OWN people left and right, is the same thing as suicide bombers killing thousands of innocent civilians.

I agree with the propaganda part, but the entire rest of that post is just fed up, regardless of what angle you're looking at it from.

The number is closer to 50,000 according to the first several google hits I got, dunno where you got 500,000. Is it our fault they had a leader who'd rather sit on a solid gold toliet then take care of his ppl, instead of gassing them for simply disagreeing with him?



The Muslims are fanatics:

You swear on the bible in Court.

-They follow thier books like law. The book is so closly followed, that many of their religous leaders have more power then the actual leaders. They use the words in the book often to totally repress women, exiling them to hude their faces in public. In many Middle Eastern countries a women is little more then property.

America has Creationists that believes Humans lived peacefully with Dinosaurs.

-What the hell does this have to do with anything?

Some blows up hospitals because they perform abortions.

-some Muslim fundamentalists blow up HOSPITALS because there are infidels inside. The hell with the hundred+ innocents that can even be their own ppl, lets kill them all to get that infidels, so we can go lie with 72 virgins woot!


This country does have it's problems, but it's not the all evil empire so many idiots make it out to be. I think I see what you were trying to point out with your post, but the way it was worded is pretty much flame bait.

[Zevrillion]

Yes, because imposing economic sancations on a country to try to force their leader to stop murdering his OWN people left and right, is the same thing as suicide bombers killing thousands of innocent civilians.

Look it like this:

An ambulance accidentally runs over a person on it's way to save someone.

Do the family to the person who was run over says. "Oh, well, the ambulance was trying to do something good. It's just said other little girl is dead."

Probable, they are angry want revenge in one way or another.

That is a case there they now the ambulance tries do something good. Imagine the Middle East people than. So, there is a lot of angry people.


The number is closer to 50,000 according to the first several google hits I got, dunno where you got 500,000. Is it our fault they had a leader who'd rather sit on a solid gold toliet then take care of his ppl, instead of gassing them for simply disagreeing with him?

But what right do you have to punish the Iraqi people, just because the leader doesn’t do what he should have done. (The leader is ONE person, the people are millions).

I might be the only one, but that doesn't look good to me.

It depends on where you read it. Here is some likes with info about it. The number I stated was from a TV show I saw some time ago.
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401c.asp
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/f.dowker/genocideiraq.html
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/Iraq/Sanctions.asp


The Muslims are fanatics:

You swear on the bible in Court.

-They follow thier books like law. The book is so closly followed, that many of their religous leaders have more power then the actual leaders. They use the words in the book often to totally repress women, exiling them to hude their faces in public. In many Middle Eastern countries a women is little more then property.

In Sweden, you don't swear on the bible. And the president/"leader" don't talk about God in their speeches.

The Sharia isn't good. But that doesn’t tell you what the Middle East “John Doe” think about religion and its importance in life.

From an outsider’s point of view, the American people are quite religious too. And now you are probable going to say; “We have some nutcases but everyone isn’t like that.” I think it’s the same in the Middle East.


America has Creationists that believes Humans lived peacefully with Dinosaurs.

-What the hell does this have to do with anything?

It chows everyone has extremists and they are like the fundamentalist in Middle East. They stop thinking with their heads and just go with what they believe.


This country does have it's problems, but it's not the all evil empire so many idiots make it out to be. I think I see what you were trying to point out with your post, but the way it was worded is pretty much flame bait.

I am not trying to flame anyone but hearing so many argument where everyone is labelled as the same thing you get a little bit irritated, and Sorry if I come out as an idiot. But like not every Americans stand behind Bush. Why should it be any different in Middle East?

[Midknight]

But what right do you have to punish the Iraqi people, just because the leader doesn’t do what he should have done. (The leader is ONE person, the people are millions).

It's more like the world tried to punish it's leaders by forcing them to choose between staying on a screwed path, or changing and being more in line with the rest of the world. You'll never get me to care about the problems economic sancations caused, nor believe any point you could make about them, when the country is rich as all hell from the Oil. Now the leaders control that money, is it America's fault that the leaders would rather build 100 room palaces with solid gold fixtures, then have even basic healthcare? I don't feel one ounce of blame for any deaths over there caused by sancations, it's their leader's own fault for A)not sharing the wealth, and B)the leaders would rather torture, murder, commit genocide then take care of their own ppl.

TY for the links, I dunno I can't fathom that many deaths over the past 10 years of small children, you'd literally be falling over corpses. Once again however, if it really was indeed that bad... pawn a goddamned solid gold toliet and fix it.

From an outsider’s point of view, the American people are quite religious too. And now you are probable going to say; “We have some nutcases but everyone isn’t like that.” I think it’s the same in the Middle East.

Oh no, I agree, there are alot of devout religous folks over here, myself not one. But no matter what, their Bible doesn't tell them to go out and murder Jews, or infidels and be rewards by virgins, palaces, every sexual pleasure. The hatred alot of the folks over there feel is totally ingrained within them. They have myraid reasons to hate us and want us dead, stupid shit from us helping the Jews, to allowing women equal rights, to simply not believing exactly, word for word, as they do. It's not so cut and dry as you make it out to be.

If numbnut Mr. Jones over here is obsessed with his religion, he'll become a preacher, help the community, raise money for needy families, and expect nothing in return, and it'll stay the same even if he gets really head of heels infatuated with Christianity. Mr. Akbar on the other hand, can do the same, but if he feels he needs to read the book as law, he'll be training suicide bombers, or raising money for the slaughter of infidels instead of pie sales!

But like not every Americans stand behind Bush. Why should it be any different in Middle East?

I agree, and I think the whole region is suffering by the actions of a moderatly low percentage.

[ChuckDaTruck]

This whole topic strikes me as politics as usual.

WHAT!? Our leaders are corrupt?! Say it ain't so!

I hate to say this, but I kind of EXPECT them to be corrupt. They HAVE to try to please the big corporations and watch the bottom line and please the party IN ORDER to even have a SHOT of being elected to the Presidency. Its a sad sad, state of affairs the world is in.

[Violent Seas]

Unfortunately, with even the worst wars, there are rules countries have to adhere by, otherwise they lose support. C'mon, we went into this war with major international opposition, so screwing morals and rules would only serve to further antagonize the Americans, and, in fact, create even more international hatred of the American people. Yes, it is true that terrorists and other ass-holes do what they will with American prisoners, but, like the saying goes, "two wrongs don't make a right." Unfair, but that's just life.




And, i may be mistaken, but i seriously doubt we'd have as much motivation to blow ourselves up to take out enemies like they like to. It's just not our way of doing things......plus, which leader would promote an idea like that???? This wouldn't only piss off Christians, but a WHOLE LOT of other people as well. Any leader who endorsed such an idea would never get elected, and, even if they did, they'd never, EVER, get support from Congress. Fuck morals? that's just not possible. We aren't morons like those terrorists are; we can't just lose our morals...


so yes, morals don't do jack in war, but hey, if we didn't exercise them, we'd just nuke every little thing that annoys us......



On a different note....


Midknight:

Islam is supposedly the most peaceful religion, I'm still trying to figure out how.

Islam, like Christianity is peaceful in some ways. It just depends on how certain people interpret their holy texts. I mean, historically, Christians haven't exactly been peaceful either, persecuting the Jews, persecuting other religions. But, in some ways, Christianity can also be a peaceful religion. The same goes for Islam. Many Muslims choose to be peaceful. But then there are those who choose to fight what they call a "holy war". That's just the way people are: close-minded.
[/i][/b]

[Xiph0]

But then there are those who choose to fight what they call a "holy war". That's just the way people are: close-minded.


:lol:

so yes, morals don't do jack in war, but hey, if we didn't exercise them, we'd just nuke every little thing that annoys us......


Politicians give the orders for what are military does. Politicians have very few morals when it comes to killing people they will never see. So by that we should have already nuked every little thing, no? Why, then have we not ? Oh yeah, we dont want to be exterminated by every other country on the planet Earth.


Fuck morals? that's just not possible. We aren't morons like those terrorists are; we can't just lose our morals...
:evil:
Hm, I see. So I'm a moron if I choose to chuck out morals, and wish for them to be chucked out, when its time to shed blood & flesh? Wow..I mean, that might actually get it done effectively - dont want that now do we?
What was the saying?
Ah yes.... " Whatever you do, do it well "




Any leader who endorsed such an idea would never get elected, and, even if they did, they'd never, EVER, get support from Congress.

You dont think Bush would endorse that if a miniority in the U.S. called for it? Say 20,000 people call for it, now picture these as people who have donated millions of dollars, literally, to getting him elected. He'd do it without them having to blow their dog whistles. Privately, I think he has no problem with doing just that.

Have you read the Patriot Act? Congress will pass many things that you wouldn't dream it possible of.

[Violent Seas]

ha ha. i love Gtalk. allows me to find out within two minutes that someone responded to my message.



going and blowing yourselves up and forsaking morality isn't really much more efficient......we'd run out of ppl to blow terrorists up with. lol....


terrorists are never gonna go away. you kill one, there will always be another. ...which is why i think the so-called war on terror is never going to end......

lemme just ask you a question out of curiosity. would you be willing to blow yourself up to kill terrorists? Would you feel ok if an innocent person was blown up during the attack? Terrorists obviously don't. But are you willing to stoop down to the level where it's ok to blow up a civilian?
Counter-terrorism is such a difficult task......


honestly, i agree with you that morals don't have a place in war. but, it only really works in theory....well, that's my opinion, anyway



lol. i don't think even bush would do such a thing, even if a small minority decided to kiss his ass and give him millions in donations. ya, he's an idiot. ya, he's immoral. ya, i want the guy out of office. but i don't think he'd go that far.....mainly cuz something like that could be considered a breach of international law. and would seriously screw bush up.




and no, i haven't read the actual text of the Patriot Act, though i plan on doing so whenever i have time. I would have during winter break. Stupid SAT prep + all the other crap ap classes love dishing out. :evil: but, DAMN i want the patriot act to be either blocked in the Senate, or declared (quickly) Unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

[Violent Seas]

honestly, i agree with you that morals don't have a place in war. but, it only really works in theory....well, that's my opinion, anyway


just wanna clarify that when i said that "it only really works in theory..." i was referring the statement that morals don't have a place in war.

[Midknight]

Quote:
Islam is supposedly the most peaceful religion, I'm still trying to figure out how.


Islam, like Christianity is peaceful in some ways. It just depends on how certain people interpret their holy texts. I mean, historically, Christians haven't exactly been peaceful either, persecuting the Jews, persecuting other religions. But, in some ways, Christianity can also be a peaceful religion. The same goes for Islam. Many Muslims choose to be peaceful. But then there are those who choose to fight what they call a "holy war". That's just the way people are: close-minded.

Oh I agree, my point that I'd made either earlier in here, or in another thread was, all the encounters I've had growing up with Islam/Muslims in the US, they're some of the most peaceful, poliet folks I've ever seen, and when I'd had run ins with the books it was always seemingly versions that had removed the violent preachings or some of the more screwed passages. Having really looking into the original books that the nutjobs over there follow like law, I can easily see how something supposedly so peaceful, gets twisted by some into jihad/etc by the promises of such fortune for such screwed up acts.

The Christian's Bible as it's flaws as well, with the murders and the "eye for an eye" crap, but don't hurt they fellow man! Comparing the two as I did earlier though, I just can't recall a passage in the Christian book that promotes slaughtering folks who do not believe exactly as you do, and you'll be rewarded by such fortune. Christianity is screwed as well without a doubt, but it seems to not be as utterly blatant.

[Xiph0]

ha ha. i love Gtalk. allows me to find out within two minutes that someone responded to my message.



Cool shit...


going and blowing yourselves up and forsaking morality isn't really much more efficient......we'd run out of ppl to blow terrorists up with. lol....


We have a suprisingly large amount of soldiers, and a load more funding. I dont think we'd run out. When I bashed morality and politics in the warzone I meant that our soldiers seem to be being made into politicians bitches. Giving candy to kids who could easily blow them up. In an ideal, and highly possible, military invasion the soldiers would shoot anyone who ran at them or some such nonsense. However, people are "Shocked and appaled " at such " vile acts " - morality.

terrorists are never gonna go away. you kill one, there will always be another. ...which is why i think the so-called war on terror is never going to end......

I agree

lemme just ask you a question out of curiosity. would you be willing to blow yourself up to kill terrorists?

Nope, and I wouldn't wish my any of my comrades at the time to either. I advocate killing civilians who do not flee in the face of an army, though. If we are there enemy, as some would believe, then they should act like it, no? Again, people are shocked at such things and consider themselves above it, and thus cannot win.


Would you feel ok if an innocent person was blown up during the attack?

Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: Most cases I wouldn't care, because I would likely be doing it to someone who would gladly kill many of my own comrades, and fellow citizens.

Terrorists obviously don't. But are you willing to stoop down to the level where it's ok to blow up a civilian?

Yes

Counter-terrorism is such a difficult task......


Counter-Terrorism is terrorism in itself. Its revenge, in a way. Just strive to be better then your opponent, and be careful where you put your faith.



honestly, i agree with you that morals don't have a place in war. but, it only really works in theory....well, that's my opinion, anyway

I might be skewed, but I'm fairly sure on this, so here goes. In boot camp, they tear down any kind of remorse or any beliefs you may have, essentially make you a blank slate. Then they turn you into a soldier, killer, fighter ext. I think it would work if it was implemented correctly. Again, someones likely to freak out and compare me to a Nazi - oh well.


lol. i don't think even bush would do such a thing, even if a small minority decided to kiss his ass and give him millions in donations. ya, he's an idiot. ya, he's immoral. ya, i want the guy out of office. but i don't think he'd go that far.....mainly cuz something like that could be considered a breach of international law. and would seriously screw bush up.


I agree, I dont think he would, but I do think he's capable. It was rumored that he was diverting military budget into armored humvees [ why not tanks? ] when the soldiers we're reporting shortages of Kevlar. Same rumor says thats because he owes so called " Defense Contractors " Really, Armories, favors.


and no, i haven't read the actual text of the Patriot Act, though i plan on doing so whenever i have time. I would have during winter break. Stupid SAT prep + all the other crap ap classes love dishing out. :evil: but, DAMN i want the patriot act to be either blocked in the Senate, or declared (quickly) Unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

It is most definetly Unconstitutional. It is.......*thinking*... Atrocious, would be the word I think.

[Violent Seas]

haha. quite set in your ways, i see


ya, the Patriot Acts are quite unconstitutional. unfortunately, the supreme ct has had a historic habit of making decisions that are...not so good....