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Old 08-09-2012, 01:53 AM   #501
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Quote:
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It's reminding me of English classes in high school, where no author or director could possibly consider as many of the little details as the people analysing it try to. Sometimes patterns are just coincidence.
Some of the crap in English classrooms is astounding, true, but that's not what this is:

This is connecting small details, not claiming that disparate objects or events are representative of underlying themes. A similar jump of conviction is required, I suppose, but it's connecting the dots rather than analysis, which I see as completely different. Eh. Maybe I'm too picky about defining such things.

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I sometimes wonder if Rothfuss thinks even half as much about his book than you do^^. Sensing a story behind every word seems a bit paranoid, but enough of that.
Yes. He does. He quite clearly does, which is one of the things that make him such a great author, and not just a good writer. Everything, no matter how small, is relevant. I've heard people criticize WMF and the latter parts of NotW as having a lot of filler content. Neither of them do at all - everything is significant.
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:02 AM   #502
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Yes. He does. He quite clearly does, which is one of the things that make him such a great author, and not just a good writer. Everything, no matter how small, is relevant. I've heard people criticize WMF and the latter parts of NotW as having a lot of filler content. Neither of them do at all - everything is significant.
I'm sure PR has the majority of connections in there by choice and great forethought but there are bound to be some random details that happily connect to one another. For instance, when the Coen brothers wrote "O Brother, Where Art Thou?", at first didn't see the striking connections between it and Homer's Odyssey. It is worth noting they say the resemblance early on and added more connections into the script.
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:35 AM   #503
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Exactly what I meant - the internal references were put in by Rothfuss. External similarities to other works or themes can be found, but won't all have been put in deliberately.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:26 AM   #504
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You didn't just ask why a river would stop an army did you?

Rivers are, historically, well known for their propensity to stop and/or divert armies. Due, in part, to the notorious difficulty of crossing rivers without bridges or fords or boats.

Sure the army would have been stopped short time... But other crossings should be available especially given enough time. And like I said is Imre in open country so there should be no difficulties if the army tried a different approach.
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:06 PM   #505
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Let's not debate hypothetical armies crossing rivers in a world where you can call the wind to fly. Because all you need is a Namer or Shaper with water in their vocabulary and the whole problem goes away. Then you run into the problem of having both sides with a Shaper who knows the name and all kinds of shit goes down from there.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:05 PM   #506
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Think through the implications of Felurian remembering being in Murella before Fae existed, of her remembering the shapers and the Creation War. She wasn't always Fae. When Lanre (Iax) tried to bring Lyra back from the dead, he stole the moon, creating the Fae realm, whose inhabitants don't die.

But it cost him his name to do it - he became Haliax, a shaper, and fundamentally altered who he was meant to be, a warrior. And the leaders of the shapers army became his colleagues, the Chandrian. Because they now had the power of immortality, they were able to defeat Myr Taeriniel and six of the seven cities where they had been unable to up til now. And they took the captives from those cities to populate their new realm, which is how Felurian got swept up.

But, getting back to the river, I do believe it stopped them - because the now Fae army had to pass back through the doors to Fae before dawn, and there is also a question of whether they can cross running water. This applies to witches and other supernatural creatures according to traditional lore,but I have also seen it applied to the fae in many of the older tales where they are considered to be without souls and the next thing to demons, playing tricks, stealing babies and paying tithes to Hell. And there's some suggestion of dark rites taking place, and Lanre having "sought knowledge where knowledge is better left alone".

There's a bit of conjecture here, but really not that much. It all fits with Skarpi's story, Felurian's story, Elodin's stories. And it leads to alot of other avenues...
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:29 PM   #507
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That's pretty much all conjecture. The fae realm existed before Iax stole the moon. Fae is probably the poorly made house in that story. I believe Felurian also mentions the shapers creating stars and whatnot before the moon is stolen. Fae being populated by captives is also pure guesswork, as well as the Chandrian being Shaper leaders. In fact, the only things linking Lanre/Haliax to fae at all are the Cthaeth and Haliax possibly maybe being Iax. Remember, they're wanted men in the Fae Courts for having a link to the Cthaeth. The Sithe seemingly actively hunt them, which doesn't add up if they're Fae royalty/founding fathers. And aren't the shapers supposedly trapped behind Doors of Stone? Skarpi's story implied that Myr Tariniel fell because Lanre betrayed them, not because he'd gained immortality or turned coat to join the other army. Sought knowledge where better left alone is pretty obviously the Cthaeth.

The university makes more sense as one of the seven cities by the simple expedient of us knowing more about it, that Naming has been taught there for a very long time, that there's an ancient city beneath it, and because it makes the most sense from the story standpoint.

Also, why do Fae have to be home before sunrise? Its the moon that unlocks the gate.

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Old 08-09-2012, 10:14 PM   #508
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Skarpi's story implied that Iax was another person entirely.

"Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match his skill in names: Aleph, Iax, and Lyra."

Though the story could have changed over the years, I don't think Rothfuss'd have put that in just to make Lanre and Iax the same person in the end.

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Old 08-10-2012, 07:59 PM   #509
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Ashan, you're right that Iax was another person from Lanre. One was a powerful namer and likely the "first and greatest shaper" who stole the moon, which caused the War, again, according to Felurian. The other was the most powerful warrior fighting on the side of the Namers, but he wasn't a namer. One of the stories, maybe the Ademre one, maybe more than one, indicates the old people had both powerful namers and fighters, indicating you had one talent or the other, not both.

But after Lyra's death, Lanre has acquired such powers he can bind even Selitos. He says Lyra's death came about through deceit and treachery, but is on his hands. He slayed a terrible, beetle-like evil beast at Drassen Tor - then he made a suit of armor from it's carapace!!! I'm thinking skrael, and this leads to Lyra's death somehow. Who do you bet created the skrael? So Lanre goes after Iax for revenge, and whatever occurs leads to his becoming Haliax and acquiring Iax's naming and shaping powers. Wish I knew what the Hal means!

@Sol, the fae realm existed, true, but as a playground or studio for the shapers. There were no fae beings before the War, Felurian is clear on this. "he stole the moon and with it came the war." "Was he of the faen courts?" "no, as I said, this was before the fae, the first and greatest of shapers."

Felurian again: "and when your moon is waxing full, all of faerie feels the pull, she draws us close to you, so bright, and now a visit for a night is easier than walking through a door.."

This is conjecture, but reasonable I think. At Drassen Tor, after the battle they put the enemy beyond doors of stone. The War raged over a huge land for a very long time, why assume they only did this at Drassen Tor? After Lyra called Lanre back from death, they began slowly winning the battle against the shapers, and the enemies armies dwindled. Geographically, it wouldn't be possible or sensible to transport surviving enemy to a single location to seal them behind such doors. I think it makes the most sense for the waystones to be the "doors of stone" the defeated enemy were put behind, somehow sealing them in the Fae realm. Here, do whatever mischief you want, but do it in the world you created, not ours. And those, instead of captives, are likely the first populants of Fae.

But Haliax, with Lanre's knowledge of how the namers created the waystones, and Iax's power's, figured out how to pass through the doors in the opposite direction when the moon is full. And brought all the defeated fighters back through on one moonlit night and destroyed Myr Tariniel and the six cities.

Wonder if Iax and Lanre could be both trapped in one body? Read through that remorseful speech to Selitos and picture Iax claiming responsibility for the War: "And I counted among the best. I, considered wise and good, did all this!" Lanre was a great fighter, but it was the namers, and in the beginning, the shapers, who were considered wise.

Remember how Kilvin is unhappy that Kvothe makes a bad thing a good way, then a good thing a bad way?

The University is concerned that someone with the ability to shape will come along and go out of control again. Whatever has happened to cause Kvothe to change his name, and I'm sure he was provoked and it likely involves Ambrose, Denna and Master Ash somehow, I think he's going to shape something and it's going to have really bad consequences.

The word that is foresworn (for sworn) and yet also a sharp word not for swearing- I think that refers to the curse Selitos put on Haliax. Felurian says the shaper who stole the moon is shut beyond the doors of stone - the shaper is Iax, or at least his body, and THESE doors of stone are either the Loeclos doors or the four-plate door, and I lean toward the first, what do you think?

These are theories only - it's useful to know where I'm wrong, or why. I enjoy the discussion and puzzling over the clues PR has left us. And old stories ALWAYS hold bits of the truth. He even has Sim and Willem acknowledge this after Kvothe tells them the tale of the old beggar.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:21 PM   #510
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Welcome to the forum songsparrow -- I think you might just manage to fit in.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:37 PM   #511
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You have officially convinced me to embark on another read of the books.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:39 PM   #512
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Having just finished a re-read, most of that stuff is familiar to me, though songsparrow has gone further than I have in trying to piece together the various conflicting myths surrounding Iax, Lanre, and the Creation war.

The part that is unfamiliar to me is this bit about a beetle-like beast at Drassen Tor. Where's that from? Skarpi's story in book 1?
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:14 AM   #513
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Man, I'm going to re-read everything now.

Anyone know how long till Doors of Stone comes out? I couldn't find anything after a brief search.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:18 AM   #514
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I suspect Pat won't give out a release date until he's very certain, given what happened last time he gave out a release date.

So I expect we won't find out even a ballpark figure until the book is almost done.

(Do we even know if Pat is writing right now? He seems to be very busy with charitable events, signings, conventions, and various other projects like the fantasy writers discussion group thing that was livestreamed the other day.)
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:20 AM   #515
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I was under the impression that all of the books have been "done" for a long time and Pat just obsessively edits things over and over and over.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:24 AM   #516
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From Pat's blog, talking about an early draft of Wise Man's Fear:

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Just to make it clear how different it was from the finished version:

1. The manuscript I gave Betsy was 150,000 words shorter than the eventual print version of the book.

2. Vashet didn’t exist. At all. Bredon didn’t exist. At all.

3. There was no Adem hand talk. No tak. No ring rituals in Severen.

4. There are whole chapters that were nothing more than this:

Chapter 31: [need title]

(Something happens with Ambrose here.)
Full thing: http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2012...ove-my-editor/

So yeah. There's done and there's done.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:34 AM   #517
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Does Rothfuss still teach? I'm pretty sure it's him that my friend took a class under at some point, though I suppose he could have quit after his book got popular enough.

At any rate that would be a fairly big time sink, hah.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:42 AM   #518
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Thanks for the welcome, Cheddartrek. It's greatly appreciated!

@Taure, yes it's from Skarpi's first tale in Tarbean. I didn't have the book in front of me, so I did make a few minor errors, it should be Drossen Tor, and PR says only "it was a great beast with scales of black iron, whose breath was a darkness that smothered men." And that Lanre made his armor from the carcass, not carapace. And scrael is spelled with a c. But I think it makes sense that it was a scrael he fought and killed and used to make his armor.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:43 AM   #519
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Hmm. The scrael's armour can be broken by a falling horse, though.

A falling horse does have some force behind it, to be sure. But it's not exactly a mythical level of strength. Not nearly as strong as Kvothe's box.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:24 AM   #520
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Taure, it would stand up to any sword - but rereading the description, the scrael's body is completely smooth, no mention of scales. So if the Beast of Drossen Tor is not scrael, but if we assume it is still something made by Iax, and deadly to keep any piece of after death, what else might it be? We know it's a "great beast with black scales, whose breath was a darkness that smothered men"- could it be something resembling a dragon?
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