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Trumperium 2: We Shall Overcomb 12 18.46%
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Old 06-14-2017, 06:31 PM   #2061
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The shooter asked people if the group was Democrats or Republicans before opening fire; obviously he had problems with the Republican party and not an individual person or because they were politicians.

All I was saying was that it was not surprising, to me, that someone did something like this as the Republican party has been doing an excellent job at pissing people off in the last several months. Is it right? Of course it fucking isn't! But its not surprising at all compared how high the tension is between ideologies are right now.
I'm about as far from pro-Republican as it gets and even I think it's a leap too far to equate the actions of a mass shooter to a direct consequence of Republican policy.
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Old 06-14-2017, 06:38 PM   #2062
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I'm about as far from pro-Republican as it gets and even I think it's a leap too far to equate the actions of a mass shooter to a direct consequence of Republican policy.
On the contrary, the individual in question evidently posted messages to his social media saying, in effect, 'Republicans are ruining the country' and 'Someone needs to do something about Trump', etc. He also took the trouble to confirm with the people present at the ball field whether the people playing were Republicans or Democrats.

Those two things indicate motive and targeting.

So in this instance, even if this case is suigeneris, it does not take a great leap of logic to conclude that he acted the way he did as a direct result of Republican policy.
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Old 06-14-2017, 06:41 PM   #2063
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Originally Posted by Lindsey View Post
Do you just like to argue? Because holy shit, you find anything to argue about.

The shooter asked people if the group was Democrats or Republicans before opening fire; obviously he had problems with the Republican party and not an individual person or because they were politicians.

All I was saying was that it was not surprising, to me, that someone did something like this as the Republican party has been doing an excellent job at pissing people off in the last several months. Is it right? Of course it fucking isn't! But its not surprising at all compared how high the tension is between ideologies are right now.

75% of people disapprove of Congress.
60% of people disapprove of the President.
- 45% of people think the President should be impeached, or at least tried.
75-85% of people disapprove of the new Health Care Bill.

Maniac and desperate people do stupid and horrifying shit. We've seen this time and time again. If the new Healthcare bill passes, along with huge governmental cuts, there will be a lot more desperate and poor people who will be much more willing to commit acts of violence against those who they think did them wrong.
First, congrats on an amazing discovery. Second, your entire line of reasoning was 'well, GOP was doing things that sooner or later would lead to people shoot them', which is kinda funny, because seems to imply that GOP are either commiting a crime/bunch of crimes or that they're doing some kind of unbelievable shit move never seen before, and not, ya know, returning to the status quo of a decade ago. Oh the 2000s, and their daily Congress mass shootings. Wicked times.

But sure. Let's run with your argument. The shooter, how was he personally affected by Congress and Trump. Or a Healthcare bill that wasn't even approved. I'm curious at what evidence you have for that.

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On the contrary, the individual in question evidently posted messages to his social media saying, in effect, 'Republicans are ruining the country' and 'Someone needs to do something about Trump', etc. He also took the trouble to confirm with the people present at the ball field whether the people playing were Republicans or Democrats.

Those two things indicate motive and targeting.

So in this instance, even if this case is suigeneris, it does not take a great leap of logic to conclude that he acted the way he did as a direct result of Republican policy.
Yes. Because irrational grudges over perceived slights or paranoia never happen.

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Old 06-14-2017, 06:49 PM   #2064
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Yes. Because irrational grudges over perceived slights or paranoia never happen.
I never said it was a rational reaction on his part, just that his actions are easily explained by the evidence at hand. Irrational people act rationally within their irrational state of mind.

I don't see why you're being so combative...
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Old 06-14-2017, 06:49 PM   #2065
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Do you just like to argue? Because holy shit, you find anything to argue about.
I agree, but in this case he's right. These kinds of people tend to feel marginalized and align themselves against whatever group is in power in order to feel special. If the Dems had control of the government and Hillary was president, he probably would have targeted Democratic politicians for not doing enough.

As for people who are gonna be negatively impacted by the actions of a Republican government, unless a bill had direct effect on an individual and led to the death of a loved one, and even then, I can't see a sane person deciding to gun down politicians. It's more likely that budget cuts to social service programs and a useless health care bill will lead to more broke and desperate people willing to commit petty crimes to get by.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:08 PM   #2066
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I never said it was a rational reaction on his part, just that his actions are easily explained by the evidence at hand. Irrational people act rationally within their irrational state of mind.

I don't see why you're being so combative...
Because way I read it, you were agreeing with Lindsey on victim blaming, which is not something fond of, and follows the same logic as those conservatives that are pinning the blame on Dems rhetoric regarding Trump for it.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:12 PM   #2067
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Because way I read it, you were agreeing with Lindsey on victim blaming, which is not something fond of, and follows the same logic as those conservatives that are pinning the blame on Dems rhetoric regarding Trump for it.
Fine, but it's possible to simultaneously understand why something happened and also not blame anyone except the perp.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:37 PM   #2068
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In other news, the President of the United States is now personally under investigation. It's also his 71st birthday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.ba7d98aaf2bc

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Special counsel is investigating Trump for possible obstruction of justice
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:38 PM   #2069
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That worked out well for Nixon. What could possibly go wrong?

/sarcasm
More fun news!

Edit: Ninja'd D:

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The special counsel overseeing the investigation into Russia’s role in the 2016 election is interviewing senior intelligence officials as part of a widening probe that now includes an examination of whether President Trump attempted to obstruct justice, officials said.

The move by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III to investigate Trump’s conduct marks a major turning point in the nearly year-old FBI investigation, which until recently focused on Russian meddling during the presidential campaign and on whether there was any coordination between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. Investigators have also been looking for any evidence of possible financial crimes among Trump associates, officials said.
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Trump had received private assurances from then-FBI Director James B. Comey starting in January that he was not personally under investigation. Officials say that changed shortly after Comey’s firing.

Five people briefed on the requests, speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly, said Daniel Coats, the current director of national intelligence, Mike Rogers, head of the National Security Agency, and Rogers’s recently departed deputy, Richard Ledgett, agreed to be interviewed by Mueller’s investigators as early as this week. The investigation has been cloaked in secrecy, and it is unclear how many others have been questioned by the FBI.
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The obstruction-of-justice investigation of the president began days after Comey was fired on May 9, according to people familiar with the matter. Mueller’s office has now taken up that work, and the preliminary interviews scheduled with intelligence officials indicate his team is actively pursuing potential witnesses inside and outside the government.

The interviews suggest Mueller sees the question of attempted obstruction of justice as more than just a “he said, he said” dispute between the president and the fired FBI director, an official said.

Probing Trump for possible crimes is a complicated affair, even if convincing evidence of a crime were found. The Justice Department has long held that it would not be appropriate to indict a sitting president. Instead, experts say, the onus would be on Congress to review any findings of criminal misconduct and then decide whether to initiate impeachment proceedings.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:01 PM   #2070
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Fine, but it's possible to simultaneously understand why something happened and also not blame anyone except the perp.
A viewpoint not exactly popular on either side of the aisle these days, though criticism of understanding is hardly new. (On a - for me - local level, I've seen flaming w.r.t this as far back as 2010 and a discussion why certain neighbourhoods were shit.) I've never quite understood the dislike of trying to understand the why - while it does run the risk of getting stuck going down paths that don't really lead anywhere, the idea behind it is that of identifying cause and effect and then maybe tackling the problem at its root.

You know, teach someone to fish etc, only w.r.t. solving criminality.

In international politics, the Senate has codified Russia sanctions first brought in by Obama's executive orders, plus some extras, in a 97-2 (Lee, Paul voted aganist, van Hollen abstained for whatever reason) vote. I'm assuming Trump isn't happy, but eh.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:13 PM   #2071
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A viewpoint not exactly popular on either side of the aisle these days, though criticism of understanding is hardly new. (On a - for me - local level, I've seen flaming w.r.t this as far back as 2010 and a discussion why certain neighbourhoods were shit.) I've never quite understood the dislike of trying to understand the why - while it does run the risk of getting stuck going down paths that don't really lead anywhere, the idea behind it is that of identifying cause and effect and then maybe tackling the problem at its root.
Except that my problem was explicitly trying to ascribe logical reasoning and justification for obviously illogical actions and trying to give propos for a line of thought that will lead to victim blaming without any moving towards a solution.

Should conservatives stop trying to defend what they believe? Should they refuse to do what they were elected for? Should the GOP become liberal because maniacs with guns might shoot them? That's not how democracy works.

They weren't doing anything illegal or outside what is expected from a normal, vibrant democracy with differing povs.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:14 PM   #2072
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