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Old 03-18-2015, 04:49 PM   #821
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Best way I can put it: If I rated this story as a humor/parody, I would give it a 5/5.

If I rated it as a serious AU, I would give it a 2.5/5.
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Old 03-18-2015, 05:23 PM   #822
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Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
Actual science flaws in HPMOR? A few of you may find this interesting.
A quote from one of the sites linked in that thread pretty much sums up my personal difficulty with the fic:

Quote:
Sorry to belabor this point so much, but I think it sums up an issue that crops up from time to time in Yudkowsky’s writing, when dabbling in a subject he doesn’t have much grounding in, he ends up giving actual subject matter experts a headache.
I admit that it's not a standard I hold the rest of fanfiction to, which may not be entirely fair. It's one thing for me to watch Star Trek and listen to the science word salads, recognizing that positronic-brain muckymuck and tachyonic-field whatsits are terms of art for the space opera game. It's something else when a story, like MoR, aspires to be the fanfiction equivalent of hard science fiction, where the expectations of one's scientifically literate readers are that the science will be gotten right to the extent possible. This sets the bar very high; botch the science and the author pretty much hoses his or her credibility. And he did botch a few things in the several chapters I read.

It was an ambitious attempt, I'll give him that. Setting aside the author's antics and judging the story on its merits and flaws, I think it's properly placed in Almost Recommended territory. 3/5.
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Old 03-21-2015, 01:35 PM   #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innomine View Post
I won't go into detail, but if you read it as a crack/humor fic, and don't take it too seriously, it's actually really enjoyable. I enjoyed it just as much as I would a fic like "Oh God, Not again!",
Had a lot of travel time this last week, and decided to give this a go now that it's over. (I'd tried once before, when I first started getting into fanfiction, and dropped it around Chapter 20 at that insanely pedantic Harry / Draco conversation about blood, magic, and genetics.)

So, I read the whole thing, and I have to say, I basically agree with Innomine here. I think a lot of the extreme hate for MoR comes from non-story stuff (interactions with the author, zealous fans inspiring backlash). I tend to kind of mentally edit out people getting heated (one way or the other) about MoR, because honestly it's just not that important.

If you read it as kind of a "dark reflection" of A Black Comedy (or, as mentioned above, Oh God Not Again), it's actually pretty enjoyable. Both have extreme OOC Harry, a plot that does have some overarching themes but frequently goes off on tangents, and some moments of real humor. The difference is that ABC is a) a lot funnier, and b) not in any way trying to take itself seriously, which is why ABC is my favorite fic of all time, and this is kind of a "has its moments, but has some huge flaws as well" fic.

I think my biggest problem with MoR is that, in order for it to generate some of these good moments (and it does have them -- anyone saying this is pure shit just isn't giving it a fair shake), it has to create an insanely straw-man version of JKR's world, and then tear it down in an amusing way. So, it's aggravating and funny at the same time.

It's kind of the same argument I made in this post. The author has taken various parts of canon that weren't fully fleshed out, and decided on the interpretation that, instead of there being an off-screen reason for various things, the wizarding world is incredibly stupid and backwards. And then he pats himself on the back (in-story) for pointing out how stupid he's made them.

An example, off the top of my head: Harry's trip to Gringotts. JKR never fleshed out how banking works, beyond the fact that there are vaults and goblins run them and wizards store money and some other things there. Instead of observing this, and the fact that the wizarding economy exists in canon and doesn't randomly collapse, and inferring that there are off-screen reasons that the trivial "game breaking" solutions Harry comes up with aren't possible, the author just makes wizards really stupid and illogical.

Same deal with Hogwarts students. Some of the best moments of comedy in this fic are the ways various secondary Hogwarts characters interpret events - their Insane Troll Logic is quite funny, as are Harry's attempts (and frustration) trying to combat it. But, in order to make those moments funny, the author has to make Hogwarts culture a caricature of itself.

Anyway. Enough virtual ink has been spilled about this fic, I suppose. I'm giving it 3/5, which doesn't seem right, because there's almost nothing average about this fic. The bad parts are really, really bad. The good parts are quite good.

If you can stomach the author taking self-congratulatory shots at canon that he's set up with straw men to look better than they actually are, and long, long science-y rants, and a plot that often takes a backseat to whatever random tangent the author wanted to explore, there's some pretty solid comedy and drama underneath it all.

3/5
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Old 04-03-2015, 09:42 AM   #824
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I can’t not say something about this story.
This fic grows on you, like a fungus.

I initially found myself extremely put off by Harry, but I eventually came to tolerate him. He is extremely annoying, but with sustained reading his outbursts and self-congratulatory ego stroking fades from a sharp pain to a dull ache.

This fic does have some good aspects. The class battle scenes come to mind, as they showcase the sheer fun and light-hearted joy that the fic really should have focused on.
Apart from that, there are other satisfying moments, including interactions with Dumbledore, conversations in parseltongue and figuring out the fic’s definition of dementors. However, the climax of this story was not satisfying, in fact I felt like it was extremely unsatisfying. Especially when contrasted with the satisfying conclusions to secondary conflicts in the story.

I think the story’s greatest strength is that it was obviously planned ahead. Many plot points are very heavily foreshadowed, but not always obviously. Going back and reading the first few chapters makes me wonder how I missed so many clues to future events.

The greatest problem in the story is its heavy-handedness in delivering its message. I think this is the part that turns most of the people who dislike it off. The author obviously wants the readers to see just how great rationality is and how awesome the world would be if we didn’t have to put up with all those silly non-rationalists. The way he preaches this message is probably the most grating part of the story. I’ve read fairy-tales with more subtlety regarding their morals. It almost reads like propaganda for rationalism in some parts, bad propaganda at that.

The thing that really brings the fic down the most is the author. I won’t really go into him too much, but when I saw that he was using the fic for donations to his institute, and later had the gall to ask his fans to bring him into contact with JKR to discuss publishing, I was more than disappointed.
Suffice to say; reading the author’s notes makes me angry. And I am not quick to anger.

Even though the story is disjointed, overly long and more than a little jarring in places, it really does have its good bits. Unfortunately, many of the good bits are done better by other fics.
Still, MoR is not without merit. I give it a 2.5/5. Rounding up or down depends on my current mood.
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:15 PM   #825
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I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, so feel free to remove it, mods, but it seems like LessWrong still has problems with this forum:

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The archetypal example of the thing I’m pointing to is more like the Dark Lord Potter forum. They think of themselves as the apex predators of Harry Potter fanfiction, to be sure - thinking of yourself as an apex predator does seem to be an intrinsic or correlated part of sneer culture - but in the case of Dark Lord Potter that doesn’t correlate to any noticeable influence among HP fandom, so far as I can remember seeing. They’re not mainstream journalists trashing somebody’s reputation in Slate with an aside about ‘a referendum on autism’, but they’re definitely sneer culture just as much as Valleywag. The groups of men who take glamour photos and point out flaws and then rate them 4.3 out of 10 are a visual form of sneer culture, but again, apex predators they are not.
17/03/2015
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:37 PM   #826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caledfwlch View Post
I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, so feel free to remove it, mods, but it seems like LessWrong still has problems with this forum:



17/03/2015
"That's sneer culture," Yudkowsky grimaced as he peered down at the uneducated masses. "Those fools hope to think they're so much better than you - watch how they band together with those of like mind, desperately seeking others to support their cause and fuel their egos. Watch how they preach to crowds that hang on every word they already believe in! How detestable, the act of thinking yourself knowledgeable beyond average - how deplorable, those people who look down on others just for liking different things and having different values!"

Yudkowsky smiled, pleased, as his adoring fans echoed their agreement and sang his praises to the sky.

He never did realise that he was describing himself.
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:53 PM   #827
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I don't want to start an argument but, God, what a bitch. After all this time...

Sorry, I had to say it.
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:57 PM   #828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palindrome View Post
"That's sneer culture," Yudkowsky grimaced as he peered down at the uneducated masses. "Those fools hope to think they're so much better than you - watch how they band together with those of like mind, desperately seeking others to support their cause and fuel their egos. Watch how they preach to crowds that hang on every word they already believe in! How detestable, the act of thinking yourself knowledgeable beyond average - how deplorable, those people who look down on others just for liking different things and having different values!"

Yudkowsky smiled, pleased, as his adoring fans echoed their agreement and sang his praises to the sky.

He never did realise that he was describing himself.
Rofl. I think the effect is better if you leave out the last line though. It's pretty obvious what you are getting at.

Also is "sneer culture" another LW invention? I've never seen the term used before.
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Old 04-16-2015, 06:01 PM   #829
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Originally Posted by theronin View Post
Rofl. I think the effect is better if you leave out the last line though. It's pretty obvious what you are getting at.

Also is "sneer culture" another LW invention? I've never seen the term used before.
It might be. The only other mention I find is this and he also wrote that, so...
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:11 AM   #830
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Quote:
The archetypal example of the thing I’m pointing to is more like the Dark Lord Potter forum. They think of themselves as the apex predators of Harry Potter fanfiction, to be sure - thinking of yourself as an apex predator does seem to be an intrinsic or correlated part of sneer culture - but in the case of Dark Lord Potter that doesn’t correlate to any noticeable influence among HP fandom, so far as I can remember seeing.
And there LessWrong is even wronger than he thinks... https://www.fanfiction.net/communiti.../Harry-Potter/



Oh, yeah, thread is closed. Forever.
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:23 AM   #831
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Have you guys been pissing in that guys coffee again?
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