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Old 02-17-2017, 12:39 PM   #761
joshuafaramir
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Shouldn't there be more greater accountability for what mainstream media posts in the news though? Like it or not, they hold a great deal of power and recently, they've been very inaccurate about their news. There's been a lot of misinformation, fear mongering and sometimes, even plain rabble rousing.

E.g. Travon Martin case.

I think that this restriction of media may be not the way to go but it'll force the mainstream media to be more careful about their news. Make them gather more substantial evidence rather than this sensational journalism that has gripped our news outlets.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:43 PM   #762
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Should mainstream media be getting their shit together? Well, yeah. But Trump doesn't care about lies. He cares of lies that aren't in his favor. He'll happily watch and (apparently even believe) the shit that's said at FOX news. Then he complains a moment later about Fake News.

People overall need to be more critical but there's a big bloody difference between people. If just anybody messes it up, that's not a big deal. When a teacher or a person with power and influence over impressionable people fuck this shit up, it's bad. When the president of the greatest military power on the planet doesn't seem to have any fucking clue what's going on, that's very, very dangerous.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:47 PM   #763
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Well, what do you expect? Trump is the product of our (U.S) society. Guess what helped propagate this kind of mentality? The media and its terrible journalism ethics. Even I find it hard to believe news media at face value anymore. I've had to research more in-depth about what actually happened before believing the news.

That's bad news.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:51 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by joshuafaramir View Post
Well, what do you expect? Trump is the product of our (U.S) society. Guess what helped propagate this kind of mentality? The media and its terrible journalism ethics. Even I find it hard to believe news media at face value anymore. I've had to research more in-depth about what actually happened before believing the news.

That's bad news.
What sources are you using? Opinion talk shows are the OP/EDs of television. Actual journalists are usually pretty trustworthy because they can cite their sources even if they are anonymous. Thus the "pretty trustworthy."
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:59 PM   #765
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Trump got voted in because people were tired of a dishonest media? Yet quite a large bit of his base watch mostly FOX News, do they not? This does not compute.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:11 PM   #766
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Trump got voted in because people were tired of a dishonest media? Yet quite a large bit of his base watch mostly FOX News, do they not? This does not compute.
To be fair, a large bit of that large bit of his base watch mostly or only Fox News because they perceive the others as less credible or more dishonest.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:44 PM   #767
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Well, what do you expect? Guess what helped propagate this kind of mentality?
We did. They're just selling us what we want. This isn't new either - as with many things, it's just now more visible.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:49 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by joshuafaramir View Post
Shouldn't there be more greater accountability for what mainstream media posts in the news though? Like it or not, they hold a great deal of power and recently, they've been very inaccurate about their news. There's been a lot of misinformation, fear mongering and sometimes, even plain rabble rousing.

E.g. Travon Martin case.

I think that this restriction of media may be not the way to go but it'll force the mainstream media to be more careful about their news. Make them gather more substantial evidence rather than this sensational journalism that has gripped our news outlets.
Can I ask what your sources are here?
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:13 PM   #769
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To be fair, a large bit of that large bit of his base watch mostly or only Fox News because they perceive the others as less credible or more dishonest.
And because FOX news reports the world as they perceieve it. We're all guilty of that, of course. I don't really check many far-right newspapers. I rarely read the paper at all and if I do, I tend to go with The Guardian.

Even so, the fact remains that FOX isn't even worthy of being called a newschannel. The amount of bullshit and misinformation they spread is at first glance hilarious and at second, when you realize how many buy into it, truly terrifying.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:31 PM   #770
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Even so, the fact remains that FOX isn't even worthy of being called a newschannel. The amount of bullshit and misinformation they spread is at first glance hilarious and at second, when you realize how many buy into it, truly terrifying.
Considering that, according to the last report I saw, people who only or primarily watch CNN for news scored something like 1% better than those who only or primarily watch Fox, on a "how informed" scale, there's really not a lot of room for throwing stones there.

There are essentially zero trustworthy major news outlets in the US anymore; as long as a given topic has even the slightest hint of partisan involvement, objectivity and accuracy go flying out the window in favor of pushing their agenda. Which was most of my point; people in general know the media in general is full of shit and have largely given up on it entirely.

You can just check Gallup, and they'll tell you all about it.

The thing I find most interesting is that young people, people who overwhelmingly lean Democrat and/or to the left, trust the media substantially less than older folks.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:14 PM   #771
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It seems like your complaints about the news media started with Reagan repealing the Fairness Act, as it seems to directly address your concerns. There's no chance in shit of the Republicans reintroducing it given they've just benefited enormously from it not existing, and Trump himself regularly sprouts lies then moments later goes on a Fake News™ tirade.

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The Fairness Doctrine was a policy of the United States Federal Communications Commission (FCC), introduced in 1949, that required the holders of broadcast licenses both to present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that was — in the Commission's view — honest, equitable, and balanced. The FCC eliminated the Doctrine in 1987, which it was believed to have been under pressure to do from Ronald Reagan, then President of the United States, and in August of 2011, the FCC formally removed the language that implemented the Doctrine.[1]

The Fairness Doctrine had two basic elements: It required broadcasters to devote some of their airtime to discussing controversial matters of public interest, and to air contrasting views regarding those matters. Stations were given wide latitude as to how to provide contrasting views: It could be done through news segments, public affairs shows, or editorials. The doctrine did not require equal time for opposing views but required that contrasting viewpoints be presented. The demise of this FCC rule has been considered by some to be a contributing factor for the rising level of party polarization in the United States.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

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The thing I find most interesting is that young people, people who overwhelmingly lean Democrat and/or to the left, trust the media substantially less than older folks.
That's not remotely surprising. They've grown up in an environment telling them not to trust the news, so even if they have no evidence to back up that belief, it becomes self-reinforcing.

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Old 02-17-2017, 05:28 PM   #772
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It seems like your complaints about the news media started with Reagan repealing the Fairness Act, as it seems to directly address your concerns. There's no chance in shit of the Republicans reintroducing it given they've just benefited enormously from it not existing, and Trump himself regularly sprouts lies then moments later goes on a Fake News™ tirade.
Kinda sorta not really. I'm not a big fan of the Fairness Doctrine, as it means shit like Climate Change denial or anti-vaccine bullshit must be given equal airtime, and that's not anywhere near a good thing.

My primary issue with modern media is the 24 hour news cycle, and the desperate chase of scandals and ratings that comes with it. This leads to half-truths, falsifications, and mistakes as studios rush to always be the first to air a story to get those precious views. It's supremely unhealthy for everyone but the media corporation, and in the long run is unhealthy for them even as well, which we can see playing out now.

Yellow Journalism is not anything new, especially not in the US, but that doesn't mean it's not worth calling it out and trying to stop it when you see it. And it's pretty patently obvious these days that there's very few outlets left that aren't almost entirely yellow journalism.

On a related note, I'd also say it's a problem that something like 98% of American news is controlled by 6 corporations, and the lack of real competition is seriously hurting their ability to serve the public interest. I wouldn't be opposed to some anti-trust shit going down in the media sector.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:29 PM   #773
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Quote:
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Kinda sorta not really. I'm not a big fan of the Fairness Doctrine, as it means shit like Climate Change denial or anti-vaccine bullshit must be given equal airtime, and that's not anywhere near a good thing.

My primary issue with modern media is the 24 hour news cycle, and the desperate chase of scandals and ratings that comes with it. This leads to half-truths, falsifications, and mistakes as studios rush to always be the first to air a story to get those precious views. It's supremely unhealthy for everyone but the media corporation, and in the long run is unhealthy for them even as well, which we can see playing out now.

Yellow Journalism is not anything new, especially not in the US, but that doesn't mean it's not worth calling it out and trying to stop it when you see it. And it's pretty patently obvious these days that there's very few outlets left that aren't almost entirely yellow journalism.

On a related note, I'd also say it's a problem that something like 98% of American news is controlled by 6 corporations, and the lack of real competition is seriously hurting their ability to serve the public interest. I wouldn't be opposed to some anti-trust shit going down in the media sector.
I also want to add onto this and say that what we currently have, is not "the only way it can be", with regards to the 'appeal to common practice fallacy'. I see a lot of people making comments as to this.

The problem here is not only the lack of competition but also the profit motive. The truth is not what necessarily sells, yet the truth is what the media, as the fourth estate, should be pushing. The inherent, or root problem, is not the bias that everyone shares, it's the fact that the biases that the media exhibit are related to partisan or political agendas, from a corporate standpoint. Personal bias is acceptable - corporate, political or institutional bias is not.

Yet that is what the media has become. And it's at a huge cost to democracy worldwide.

How we go about fixing it is a topic I'd love to see some discussion on. For all the hypocrisy of Trump, at the very least he's calling a lot of attention to the shit the media spouts. And considering the problem is on both sides of the aisle, perhaps this is one area where partisan compromise could be sought.

As Agayek states, the fairness doctrine is a flawed idea. I'm of the opinion that either the profit motive must be addressed or the concentrated ownership. Honestly, probably both could be looked it. The recasting of the news media from a profitable business to a public service would do a lot of good. I suspect this viewpoint will gain very little traction in the USA though.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:34 PM   #774
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I'm of the opinion that either the profit motive must be addressed or the concentrated ownership. Honestly, probably both could be looked it. The recasting of the news media from a profitable business to a public service would do a lot of good. I suspect this viewpoint will gain very little traction in the USA though.
I don't disagree with you on this, but the reason I didn't bring it up is because I can't think of an acceptable solution. State-run media is, simply put, laughable as an attempt to address this issue, and there's a whole gamut of issues inherent to tightening defamation laws that make that approach unworkable as well.

In an ideal world, people would care more about being correct than being right, if you'll excuse the turn of phrase, but we don't live in an ideal world, and I don't see any other acceptable solution to the profit motive.

The best I can think of is to go in and break up the media corporations and force them to actually compete with each other.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:44 PM   #775
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The thing I find most interesting is that young people, people who overwhelmingly lean Democrat and/or to the left, trust the media substantially less than older folks.
There are some interesting take-aways from that poll, but I'd like to append a caveat to your statement in that Gallup only selects into two groups w.r.t age. It's just a hunch, but I think four groups (18-34, 35-49, 50-64, 65+) might give a more interesting breakdown on media trust. Then again, there are probably some methodological issues (groups becoming too small or something) that explain why Gallup didn't. (Or just consistency with earlier polling.)

The issue with a cry for accountability is that accountability, in and of itself, is a phrase that is almost hilariously nebulous and hard to capture. News journalism differs from gaming journalism (to name another area that has struggled with calls for accountability) in several ways. For one, while full transparency of sources has virtually no downsides for gaming journalism, news journalism needs some of its sources to remain hidden for whatever reason. (e.g. whistle-blowing, or reporting on sensitive issues.) There's also time-sensitive issues involved often, both related and unrelated to the 24hr cycle. (A hypothetical unrelated example would be a sudden shocker story about a government nominee, a few hours before confirmation voting. There's a ~90 % chance it's true, and it would definitely sink the nomination for reasons that would get high bipartisan support. What do you do?) I'm fairly sure someone actually in the field can share more ways.

This isn't to say that they can't be held accountable. Other networks do. Websites do. Website news can (and should) have a notification saying that shit was edited as more information became available (see also the general news thread in Real Life in which a website didn't do that.). These are largely inter-journalistic ways of keeping others accountable that are already a thing in places, and though I can offer no panacea or even bandage for the problem as a whole, it seems likely that there are more ways to promote the accuracy and accountability of news outlets.

The problem, however, with imposing government-backed accountability is that the governmental stick inevitably makes use of the justice system, and that means fines, prison sentences, and all other stuff that is likely to go past accountability into self-censorship and hindering the role of the media as the fourth estate.

Then everything is compounded by the fact that not all errors are accidental (see earlier examples) or innocuous (e.g. mixing up the exact CxO role on someone's CV), or the doing of the media. (They can't control what someone says in a press conference.) Disinformation is another beast. Facts do not speak for themselves all that often if the lie is believable enough. (The 'Big Lie' technique is an example, but there's also inconsequential stuff like Trump's EVs. He didn't actually receive 306 of them, but who cares about those two faithless electors.) It takes time and effort to check everything, and by that time, the cycle has moved on.

It is one of the more vexing conundrums of modern media consumption, but in my view, there are astoundingly many variables involved, and perhaps that's the hardest part of it all. Yet the appeal of governmental restrictions might stem from that very notion. It's simple, it's relatively clean, and apart from Others, who cares. There's probably some pithy quote relating to this complex issue simple answer concept, but considering quotes are often misattributed anyway, I'll refrain from posting one.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:45 PM   #776
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I like NPR. It always seems relatively unbiased.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:51 PM   #777
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The best I can think of is to go in and break up the media corporations and force them to actually compete with each other.
That doesn't do much to fix the issues with the 24 hr cycle or the dash to the bottom to get early views though. I'm not sure how you could decouple from the profit motive that pushes that without some kind of public ownership.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:52 PM   #778
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Well, for as much as we're all musing civilly on the nature of the media's role in a modern democracy, Trump just called about five news organizations the 'enemies of the American people'.

This is how people end up killed. Fucking Christ.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:56 PM   #779
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There are essentially zero trustworthy major news outlets in the US anymore...
Not true. NPR's daily evening news program All Things Considered and the New York Times' news division are really the only two major outlets still staffed by old school journalists.

Both have other items that have a bit more bias (NYT's Opinions section and NPR has other programs), but those two have solid news divisions.

(n.b. Of course, Conservatives will screech that both outlets skew liberal; my rejoinder is that reality skews liberal, and they need to catch up. ;-) )
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:59 PM   #780
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I don't disagree with you on this, but the reason I didn't bring it up is because I can't think of an acceptable solution. State-run media is, simply put, laughable as an attempt to address this issue, and there's a whole gamut of issues inherent to tightening defamation laws that make that approach unworkable as well.

In an ideal world, people would care more about being correct than being right, if you'll excuse the turn of phrase, but we don't live in an ideal world, and I don't see any other acceptable solution to the profit motive.

The best I can think of is to go in and break up the media corporations and force them to actually compete with each other.
Breaking up media corporations might not be a viable long-term solution either, unfortunately. Going off past trends, a lot of the new corps would eventually wither and either get reabsorbed/bought out or just outright die.
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