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Old 08-03-2014, 06:04 PM   #41
VanRopen
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That implies an actual military conflict where both sides can harm the other. Wizards can exist, utterly hidden, within a muggle city and never be found. They do t have to fight muggles, they just have to kill them.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:13 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innomine View Post
Cool, and I can just say that teleportation isn't as broken as you think it is.
Except it is. At this point, I'm starting to think you can safely be ignored. Since you can't actually address arguments or statements or even guesses.
Quote:
Since we're making shit up.
See above
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Main reason being? It would make the story boring as hell.
Of a total war? Portraying what would actually happen is simply how it is. What are you going to do? Whine?
Quote:
*whining*
Your impotent tears, while sad and pathetic, do not amuse me. More importantly, they do not meaningfully contribute to the discussion, any discussion, that is going on here.
Quote:
*tears of impotent rage and apathy*
No, you are completely incapable of proving me wrong in any way whatsoever. The only possible fall back you have is the tired and utter bullshit "Technology will advance and then, somehow, turn magic off". Which is the crux of that debate. Its total bullshit and known to be such, since its Wizards that have MAGIC, not Muggles. You got nothing except meager and sad complaints about how utterly broken and outrageously powerful Potterverse magic is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Press View Post
Ah. A wizards vs muggles debate.

Knoq, you're forgetting several very important things. As far as we know, there are maybe a few million wizards in the world. There are many more muggles. Numbers can make a difference.
True they can. Sorta. But when you barely even know your enemy even exists, and, hell, lets just break the masquerade, but even then, you can't even locate most if any of them, even when they are literally down the street from you, then any war is devastatingly one sided. A good story of a war would require the Imperius being nerfed outright. For whatever reason, just blatantly nerfed.

And even then, its a horrendous curbstomp of modern Muggle Civilization.
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Plus, it is totally plausible that some people would switch sides.
Due to the fact that I actually enjoy an engaging debate and have some common sense, I'll grant you this. However....
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I can't really see muggles joining the wizards,
Charles Manson had groupies. Still does. And certain Cannibalistic Serial Killers had fangirls....that were grown women. Oh and
Quote:
any muggle would feel terribly powerless among superhumans
Does not help you assertion. At all. You just described conditions which historically led to hundreds/thousands/millions being enslaved in civilizations all over the world throughout history. And conditions which led people to give up their sovereignty.
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whose technological level can't compare to muggles for obvious reasons.
Ah yes, the same technology that makes muggle civilization incredibly fragile. Food, Shelter, Clothing, Language and Entertainment? Wizards have it equal enough in most areas. Superior in some, its only in information distribution that they even sorta lag behind
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But if some muggleborns perhaps worked their way into positions of some power, or simply chose to live among muggles while using magic as a bonus to boost their existence, who's to say others wouldn't follow?
Quickly, how many muggleborns are there, how many of are Hermione's admittedly impressive caliber? Small number and even more drastically smaller number. Good fodder for continuing and lengthening the war, but ultimately just delaying the inevitable, if that
Quote:
It could certainly go both ways: muggles could want to dissect captured wizards
Congratulations. Voldemort and the Death Eaters no longer need lies for propaganda. Just the raw naked truth. Too bad for insufficiently useful Muggleborn traitors. In fact, something like this would very well have even the Weasley's think about joining Voldemort. And for most of the population, things like this or even the hint of them, would cause them to rally behind Voldemort. Or Grindelwald. Or any powerful Dark Lord who advocated bad things to the Muggles. Sure, a percent, a truly and hilariously microscopic percentage of Wizards and Witches might still work with Muggles. But you are literally talking only the most stupid, desperate, and most hated magicals. 99% of the Wizarding world, would not betray their own kind. Ever. It didn't even happen when Voldemort was going all "LOLHitler analogy".[/quote] to try and reverse-engineer magic[quote] And how the flying shit is this going to happen? Oh wait. It isn't. At all. Ever. Genetics and Technology do not work like that.

It isn't.....you know....magic
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(it would happen, because that's what we humans do), but there would also be some nut ready to start a cult and worship a powerful wizard as Jesus or something. Because a competent wizard could certainly transfigure fish and bread.
If by some nut you mean hefty portions of humanity bending the knee in general...
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Originally Posted by Rhaegar I View Post
Personally, I think any such war will not end well for either side, because of two simple facts:

1. Wizards are extremely powerful.

2. Wizards have an extremely small population, especially when compared to muggles.
When the disparity in ability, certain abilities, is so great, this doesn't matter as much. The main enemy of Wizards and Witches in this department, is themselves, since only the Weasley family, of the purebloods, is doing it right in terms of making sure Purebloods continue existing. With such a smaller population, you'd think they'd notice what happens when you stop having large families and start having one or two kids at most. And then have wars. In Canon, the only thing that can and will save the Purebloods is nearly every family popping out kids until menopause hits, importing Purebloods from other nations, and finally, making the definition of Pureblood be something a little more reasonable. Like every Great Grand Parent Magical or every GrandParent Magical. Or else they are going to die out and die out hard and fast.

The Purebloods worst enemies is themselves. Period.
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So yes, wizards could do a ton of damage to muggles. But there are only so many of them, while there are so many muggles.
You don't see the problem. Apparition and Portkeys, mean that Magicals could hit and effectively disable if not destroy key global infrastructure, and within a year, most Muggle governments would be struggling, and failing, to keep order within their own borders thanks to all the desperate and starving people. Grow all the food you want, but in the modern era, if you can't transport it, it will just rot. Sure, this only brings the Muggle population to 200million-1billion globally, which still outnumbers Wizards, but it also drastically reduces their ability to organize harm upon Wizarding kind. Almost totally neuters it.
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And as history repeatedly proves, the superior military power, no matter how many advantages it has over the enemy, will eventually lose to an insurgency, especially when the entire occupied people has serious issues with the occupier.
Noooooooo.......nope. It proves that modern COIN, as in, from the Vietnam War onwards, is exceedingly difficult to have a victory with. In WWII, it was the Red Army simply existing and operating that gave any hope and lasting power to partisan movements across Europe. French Resistance? All the partisan movements together? By themselves, utterly worthless against the brutality and superior firepower of the Nazis. Who, being despicable Nazis, used such to its full extent. The Concentration Camps were not original Nazi ideas, they were simply put to an unusual and vile use. Greece and the Balkans would have joined the pyres as would have millions of Slavs and other Eastern European ethnicities. That or get leveled in their towns and watch whole villages get bulldozed. The French Resistance would have petered out in 20-30 years.

Before the Nazis, there was the Anglo-Boer Wars, the American-Phillipine Wars, and Imperial Japan before the USA showed up to curbstomp them into oblivion. And of course, the Mongols.

If the Wizarding population is fighting for survival, or perceives such, then they will be fighting to cause the total collapse of nation states. And could succeed. The amount of casualties this would cause is mind boggling, but even then, there wouldn't be total wipeouts. Usually.

What recent history proves, is that COIN and Nation Building, is really hard and expensive. But its better than the old way. The old way was horrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanRopen View Post
That implies an actual military conflict where both sides can harm the other. Wizards can exist, utterly hidden, within a muggle city and never be found. They do t have to fight muggles, they just have to kill them.
Exactly. An interesting story could still happen, kind of, but you would have to pull a lot, and I men A LOT, of Grade A1 bullshit for the Wizards to not win. One side treats the other as fucking pests what with Muggle Repelling Charms. One side has a teleportation Network, which is so cheap and convenient that a family renowned for being poor, has apparently no issue keeping a large tin of the necessary supply*, the ability to manufacture timed/word activated teleportation objects, and individual any point to any point teleportation.

Like, it's not even funny how obscenely over powered Potterverse magic really is, and that's just the side show features.

*Before I watched the movies, I thought a pinch of Floo Powder was like a pinch of salt. Just a finger and a thumb. But no, people apparently go through fistfuls of the stuff each trip.
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Old 08-03-2014, 11:21 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Knoq View Post
No, you are completely incapable of proving me wrong in any way whatsoever.
If you're gonna talk shite like this, then better stop typing. He may have other reasons for not wanting to spend time explaining some things if he doesn't want to.

Quote:
True they can. Sorta. But when you barely even know your enemy even exists, and, hell, lets just break the masquerade, but even then, you can't even locate most if any of them, even when they are literally down the street from you, then any war is devastatingly one sided. A good story of a war would require the Imperius being nerfed outright. For whatever reason, just blatantly nerfed.

And even then, its a horrendous curbstomp of modern Muggle Civilization.
I would like to see a scenario where the wizards avoid making even one mistake. Because that's all it would take for muggles to find out about their existance. One video clip and the secret is no more. Also, I don't know what you mean by curbstomp. Magic fucks over electricity, but there are BFGs that work on simple mechanisms. Pretty sure that a sniper at 100 metres would win against a wizard, unless the wizard knew that the sniper was there. Bullets go faster than wizards cast spells mah son.

Quote:
Due to the fact that I actually enjoy an engaging debate and have some common sense, I'll grant you this. However....
Quote: I can't really see muggles joining the wizards,

Charles Manson had groupies. Still does. And certain Cannibalistic Serial Killers had fangirls....that were grown women. Oh and

Quote: any muggle would feel terribly powerless among superhumans

Does not help you assertion. At all. You just described conditions which historically led to hundreds/thousands/millions being enslaved in civilizations all over the world throughout history. And conditions which led people to give up their sovereignty.
A fair point.

Quote:
Ah yes, the same technology that makes muggle civilization incredibly fragile capable of fucking shit up. Food, Shelter, Clothing, Language and Entertainment? Wizards have it equal enough in most areas. Superior in some, its only in information distribution that they even sorta lag behind
There, FTFY. Wizards would have to pull off an enormous fucking operation to entirely deny the muggles their technology.

Quote:
Quickly, how many muggleborns are there, how many of are Hermione's admittedly impressive caliber? Small number and even more drastically smaller number. Good fodder for continuing and lengthening the war, but ultimately just delaying the inevitable, if that
And yet all it took to fuck over Voldemort was one genius muggleborn aided by two teenager of rather average intelligence. All it takes to cause wizards some serious problems is just one muggleborn who'll make use of the considerable advantages technology can give.

Quote:
Congratulations. Voldemort and the Death Eaters no longer need lies for propaganda. Just the raw naked truth. Too bad for insufficiently useful Muggleborn traitors. In fact, something like this would very well have even the Weasley's think about joining Voldemort. And for most of the population, things like this or even the hint of them, would cause them to rally behind Voldemort. Or Grindelwald. Or any powerful Dark Lord who advocated bad things to the Muggles. Sure, a percent, a truly and hilariously microscopic percentage of Wizards and Witches might still work with Muggles. But you are literally talking only the most stupid, desperate, and most hated magicals. 99% of the Wizarding world, would not betray their own kind. Ever. It didn't even happen when Voldemort was going all "LOLHitler analogy".

to try and reverse-engineer magic

And how the flying shit is this going to happen? Oh wait. It isn't. At all. Ever. Genetics and Technology do not work like that.

It isn't.....you know....magic
Sure, wizards wouldn't like it if muggles started running tests on them. And just because the muggles would try it, doesn't mean they'd succeed. They would very likely fail. As far as we know, there is no way to manufacture wizards other pop out a magical baby. But muggles would still try, no matter what. And why do assume only the stupidest would join the other side? Who's to say some of them won't just go to Jamaica and wait until the war is over? Deserters would hurt wizards more than muggles.

Quote:
If by some nut you mean hefty portions of humanity bending the knee in general...
For every guy shouting "Jesus returned!", you'd have another yelling "Satan is here!" Of course, 'Satan' would also have his followers.

Quote:
When the disparity in ability, certain abilities, is so great, this doesn't matter as much. The main enemy of Wizards and Witches in this department, is themselves, since only the Weasley family, of the purebloods, is doing it right in terms of making sure Purebloods continue existing. With such a smaller population, you'd think they'd notice what happens when you stop having large families and start having one or two kids at most. And then have wars. In Canon, the only thing that can and will save the Purebloods is nearly every family popping out kids until menopause hits, importing Purebloods from other nations, and finally, making the definition of Pureblood be something a little more reasonable. Like every Great Grand Parent Magical or every GrandParent Magical. Or else they are going to die out and die out hard and fast.

The Purebloods worst enemies is themselves. Period.
And you may have just invalidated your own argument that the muggles' number may not matter all that much.

Quote:
You don't see the problem. Apparition and Portkeys, mean that Magicals could hit and effectively disable if not destroy key global infrastructure, and within a year, most Muggle governments would be struggling, and failing, to keep order within their own borders thanks to all the desperate and starving people. Grow all the food you want, but in the modern era, if you can't transport it, it will just rot. Sure, this only brings the Muggle population to 200million-1billion globally, which still outnumbers Wizards, but it also drastically reduces their ability to organize harm upon Wizarding kind. Almost totally neuters it.
If you crunch the approximate numbers, there can't be more than a few million wizards in the world. If you take Britain and take it as an example of the whole (which is the best thing available to us), you'll notice that wizards could have a relatively high percentage of elderly people for their total numbers. Hogwarts is the biggest school in the country and they have what, 300 students across all seven years. And again, wizard would have to pull off a motherfucking miracle to cripple global infrastructure enough to cause 80% of muggles to die. Even if they pulled that off, with say 200 mln muggles left and a generous estimate of 10mln wizards, you still have 20 muggles to every wizard. Muggles aren't stupid. If wizards can hide, so would they.

Quote:
Noooooooo.......nope. It proves that modern COIN, as in, from the Vietnam War onwards, is exceedingly difficult to have a victory with. In WWII, it was the Red Army simply existing and operating that gave any hope and lasting power to partisan movements across Europe. French Resistance? All the partisan movements together? By themselves, utterly worthless against the brutality and superior firepower of the Nazis. Who, being despicable Nazis, used such to its full extent. The Concentration Camps were not original Nazi ideas, they were simply put to an unusual and vile use. Greece and the Balkans would have joined the pyres as would have millions of Slavs and other Eastern European ethnicities. That or get leveled in their towns and watch whole villages get bulldozed. The French Resistance would have petered out in 20-30 years.

Before the Nazis, there was the Anglo-Boer Wars, the American-Phillipine Wars, and Imperial Japan before the USA showed up to curbstomp them into oblivion. And of course, the Mongols.

If the Wizarding population is fighting for survival, or perceives such, then they will be fighting to cause the total collapse of nation states. And could succeed. The amount of casualties this would cause is mind boggling, but even then, there wouldn't be total wipeouts. Usually.

What recent history proves, is that COIN and Nation Building, is really hard and expensive. But its better than the old way. The old way was horrible.
I'm missing the point here, I think. Are you saying that underground resistance movements wouldn't matter? If so, you just took away the wizards' covert operations to undermine muggles.

Quote:
Exactly. An interesting story could still happen, kind of, but you would have to pull a lot, and I men A LOT, of Grade A1 bullshit for the Wizards to not win. One side treats the other as fucking pests what with Muggle Repelling Charms. One side has a teleportation Network, which is so cheap and convenient that a family renowned for being poor, has apparently no issue keeping a large tin of the necessary supply*, the ability to manufacture timed/word activated teleportation objects, and individual any point to any point teleportation.

Like, it's not even funny how obscenely over powered Potterverse magic really is, and that's just the side show features.

*Before I watched the movies, I thought a pinch of Floo Powder was like a pinch of salt. Just a finger and a thumb. But no, people apparently go through fistfuls of the stuff each trip.
No one is denying that wizards being hidden have a ridiculous advantage over muggles. And yes, when you have a few million people capable of killing just by waving a wand and casting a spell, it's a crutch. But there are many factors to take into account. Even simple close quarters. Get close enough and one punch could turn the tables on the enemy. Wizards are the most effective at the range of a spell, but up close, when fists come into play, both sides have almost equal chances. At longer distances... well, that's another thing to discuss.
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Last edited by ScottPress; 08-03-2014 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 11:48 PM   #44
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You are talking about tactics - this sort of thing isn't going to be decided by tactics, it is going to be decided by overarching strategic concerns.

It wouldn't be too difficult for Wizards to obliterate the infrastructure modern society requires to function, while muggles would struggle to do the same - THAT alone is enough to say that they would lose.
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Old 08-04-2014, 03:38 AM   #45
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I hate you all. Please leave your bad arguments out of my thread.
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:56 AM   #46
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I hate you all. Please leave your bad arguments out of my thread.
That.

Thathathathathat.

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