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Old 07-25-2017, 01:50 AM   #321
fontisian
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Originally Posted by Hugplx View Post
I assure you, I have a massive, delicate male ego. I can temper it though when I'm curious.

I think I do see consent as a continuous thing until revoked, especially if you've known the person for a while, trust already being there. Lindsey said both were pretty fucked up for years after the issue, which I took to her meaning she knew both and that they're all in the same friendship group.

It's impossibly hard to talk about these things - especially when people are so quick to fly off the handle and you've usually got thirty seven derogatory labels thrown at you before you finish the first sentence - but as I said, I'm not dying on this hill, which means my opinions aren't set in stone.

I'd have liked more detail, mostly.
I appreciate you and apologize in full. You seem pretty cool.

I think your reaction of blaming the woman and trying to defend the man was indicative of the societal norms led to the situation in the first place. If you have time next week (I'm a little busy this week) I'd like to try to convince you of that point of view.

---------- Post automerged at 01:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Arthellion View Post
Detail is huge here.

Kinky sex/bdsm allows for all manner of "rape fantasies." for all the male knew she was still in that role.

Without further detail it's impossible for us to fully assign blame. What happened is tragic obviously but if the male assumed she was in the role it's more akin to involuntary manslaughter than murder.
The aptness of that metaphor is that in both cases the victim is just as dead.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:50 AM   #322
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The aptness of that metaphor is that in both cases the victim is just as dead.
Agreed, but punishment is different.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:00 AM   #323
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Awinarock, do you agree that her "tr[ing] to leave" indicated she was not consenting?
Huh, somehow I missed that detail when I was reading Lindsey's post. I agree that that does change things. In terms of our discussion regarding what is and isn't rape, this make me lean more towards rape although I wouldn't want it prosecuted as such.

It's difficult for me to empathize with women in these sorts of situations because my first response to someone making an unwanted advance of any sorts towards me, regardless of how familiar/unfamiliar we are with each other, would be to tell them to fuck off. I apologize if I came off as a rape apologist of some sort, but having known friends who were in these sorts of murky situations after having mutually drunken sex with someone they met a party/bar, my gut reaction is to go on the defensive.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:07 AM   #324
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Understandable. I tend towards the opposite reaction, as I have friends who have been sexually assualted and have frozen. I strongly recommend reading that article I just linked about freezing to understand what these people are experiencing.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:56 AM   #325
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When I flipped my shit, I got a response about how he didn't mean to, and that I was just so sexy and more.
That's some 'oops, I tripped' level of Schrodinger's dick-stickage.
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Old 07-25-2017, 12:43 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Arthellion View Post
Detail is huge here.

Kinky sex/bdsm allows for all manner of "rape fantasies." for all the male knew she was still in that role.

Without further detail it's impossible for us to fully assign blame. What happened is tragic obviously but if the male assumed she was in the role it's more akin to involuntary manslaughter than murder.
BULLSHIT. Absolutely fucking bullshit, and in case you missed my previous post on this (and because this is might be a scene with nuances you've never experienced in detail), let me explain why.

As any sane dominant or BDSM practitioner will tell you, the underlying faculty behind BDSM and especially something as complex or difficult as a rape fantasy is trust, and it's always with the representation that the sub can stop it or withdraw immediately if things get out of hand. It's a dangerous, blurry line at the best of times (which is why so many folks in BDSM rarely approach rape fantasies, especially nowadays), but if there is agreement for the scenario, the rules should always be extremely clear. That's why there are safewords and understood boundaries of consent - if anything, it's even more sharply delineated in BDSM because there's such a flagrant (and often false) stigma against the community that it perpetuates sexually assaulting deviants.

So let's discuss this: they go home drunk and fuck, and while I think that's incredibly irresponsible (to say nothing of stupid dangerous - reckless BDSM is BAD BSDM), it's ultimately their choice. Come around to the morning, that's a new sexual encounter, and to assume the same groundwork is in play (presuming any of it was there to begin with) is criminally irresponsible on the part of the dominant. The assumption that 'everything is still good, so I can enact the rape fantasy', especially if he knew they were both drunk the night before, there's a VERY clear designation of a responsibility on him to fucking ask the question and define consent for the next sexual encounter, and the fact that he explicitly chose not to and just plowed ahead anyway despite her objections is fucking RAPE. I don't give a shit if he assumed she was still in on it - that makes him a sexual abuser and a shitty dominant, and I have no patience for either.

And the fact that you're now choosing to give him the benefit of the doubt regardless of that instead of the woman raped shows that you have no clear comprehension of the scene at best. If you're going to make uninformed statements excusing rapists who try to appropriate BDSM culture to justify their own shitty sloppiness, you might want to educate yourself.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:05 PM   #327
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@Silens Cursor

Firstly my apologies. Did not mean to offend. I'm not too familiar with the BDSM community but the stereotype and misconceptions are there.

I fully know there are rules and groundwork. I'm not in anyway blaming BDSM itself. I'm blaming the man and woman for not communicating clearly. Hence need for more detail.

My assumption is that it's entirely possible that this couple was operating on public knowledge of BDSM. Man assumes rape fantasies as a part of that. It's ignorance on his part.

It's still rape. It's still evil.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:10 PM   #328
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That's some 'oops, I tripped' level of Schrodinger's dick-stickage.
Indeed.

I have a feeling it was more like 'i'm so close to sex, let's just get a little closer and push the boundaries, perhaps she won't mind'. AKA: desperate to get laid and willing to 'forget' the previous conversations. And then... all the backpedaling when caught.

For everyone else questioning the second case, I can give a little more information as I do know them both.

'Tiffany' went over to 'John's' house for a party and both of them got pretty drunk. She has always been very open about her sexuality and would often share stories about her experiences and what she loves (such as being dominated, etc). Both of them got drunk and ended up having a very kinky night. The next morning she woke up and regretted what she done because he was off-limits (he is one of our other friends ex). She, at no point, felt she was sexually assaulted that night. She understood that she got too drunk and did something she regretted, but that is life.

The next morning she just wanted to leave and sleep off her hangover. She was against the wall, so when she tried to get out of bed, John woke up. They talked for a little bit, and then John started making the moves again. He was probably still partly drunk. She started weakly protesting and making excuses when he grabbed her and pinned her to the bed. After this it gets a little more blurry. I do not believe she said 'No, I don't want to have sex, let me go.' but instead 'I have a hangover', 'let us just cuddle', 'hey, I need to go and clean up...' He kept going as if he was trying to turn her on. After all, it's pretty common idea that if you please your partner enough, they are going to want it.

Tiffany is a very small girl like me, 5'2" and maybe 100 pounds. John is the opposite, 6'4" and very well built. When he started getting handsy and dominating, she just froze up. She felt like she couldn't say no, or that he would not listen. Of course, now she feels even more like shit because she did not fight back. She was just paralyzed and couldn't do anything but shut down and let it happen after a certain point.

When we talked with John, he never even realized that she didn't want sex. He thought she was just playing around and acting cute. He lived in Brazil for awhile when he was a young adult and was taught that men needed to be very dominate to get women and they were supposed to fight back and playing 'hard to get'. It had always worked in the US as well as in his experience, women like men who were dominant and 'manly men'. He really just thought she wanted him to get more dominate and boss her around like the night before. Later on, when he found out she never wanted it and was afraid of him, it seriously messed him up.

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Old 07-25-2017, 01:35 PM   #329
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I do not believe she said 'No, I don't want to have sex, let me go.' but instead was saying things such as 'I have a hangover' or 'let us just cuddle'. He kept going as if he was trying to turn her on. After all, it's pretty common idea that if you please your partner enough, they are going to want it...
/headdesk. It's not like the last statement isn't at least partially true, but again, this is one of those things where assumed consent is very different than verified consent, and it's his job to fucking ask.

Quote:
He felt like because she never said no or that she didn't want sex, she was just playing hard to get and flirting with him to be more dominate, like the night before. Later on, when he found out she never wanted it and was afraid of him, it seriously messed him up. Especially as he lived in Brazil for awhile, where he was practically taught that men needed to be dominate to get women and they were supposed to fight back and act like they don't want it. It didn't even cross his mind that her excuses were because she didn't want sex, and not just playing hard to get.
And if you're looking for a reason why I'm a feminist, I think we have our answer: because we have cultural norms (and not just in Brazil, this sort of shit holds across the world) that condition guys to dominate in order to get sex at all (to be 'alpha'), and for girls to play 'hard to get' in order to perpetuate that cycle, which leads to a twisted sort of power dynamic that strips out communication in this sort of sexual dynamics. And I completely get why this would mess both of them up, especially the dumbass who didn't immediately ask for consent and just assumed he knew from the night before (to make this abundantly clear, ignorance =/= mitigating factor, especially when we're talking about something so fundamentally unethical as rape).

Quote:
I'm blaming the man and woman for not communicating clearly.
To clear up some misconceptions, I'm solely blaming the guy in this case - bad communication skills may go both ways, but he still chose to stick his dick in someone without asking - it's the dominant's responsibility to assess the situation and own the responsibility. It's not too much of a stretch to fucking ask.

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...but the stereotype and misconceptions are there.
Stereotypes and misconceptions formed independently by decades of bad crime dramas and erotica, to say nothing of basic fuckskulls who try to use it as a cheap excuse (see the Jian Ghomeshi nightmare in Canada - there's a reason why the kink community fucking pilloried this guy for trying to excuse his sexual assaults as a BDSM thing). The sad fact is that when the kink community speaks out, nobody bothers to listen (why deprive themselves of an easy scapegoat for privileged shitheads?), and the stereotypes and misconceptions continue unabated - both for mainstream society and the brand of predominantly white puritanical feminists who love to throw kinks under the bus (to rope this back to the subject at hand - again, bad pun).
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:55 PM   #330
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Somewhat relevant.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:24 PM   #331
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Snip.
This scenario is horrible, because to one party, it wasn't rape, but to the other, it was.
So, where do I put the blame? On him. Not because he was the man, but because he was the aggressor.* There is absolutely no reason, IMO, to assume previous agreements stand after hours of sleeping. The problem with expecting the receiver* to speak up and say, "no" is that it assumes the person wants sex, and they must actively give nonconsent. And that is how these situations occur.

To take this out of the persona realm and into another that many here (at least in the US) may remember, I believe this scenario is akin to that of Ben Roethlisberger being accused of rape in Midgeville Georgia. In that situation, you have a 6'5 240 pound professional athlete with the confidence and arrogance that often goes with it in a bathroom with a young college girl. Although no one but those two know what really went on in that bathroom, my thoughts are that he thought she wanted it and allowed him to do what he wanted. On the other hand, she was probably frightened (especially with the overwhelming size/strength difference and the fact he had his own person guard(s) keeping the hallway clear) and kept silent out of self-preservation.

Moreover, I think it is these scenarios that drive a significant portion of allegations of women crying rape out of later regrets, because in the man's head, he had permission. The fact that she hadn't given consent is not a part of his reality, because he thought she had. That leads to confusion on how she could be crying rape and the conclusion that is simply due to regret.**

tl;dr If you're the aggressor, don't be stupid. Get verbal consent, and get it again after an interlude where the mood has been broken.

*Aggressor/receiver is defined here as the aggressor being the one to initiate a sexual act and the receiver being the one with whom the act is being initiated.

**This scenario is different from what I'd call "true allegations" of falsely accusing someone of rape, which also happens.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:03 PM   #332
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Conceptually I agree with positive consent but in reality I don't think the way it is presented is realistic or feasible. The entire concept relies on individual parties acting rationally, when such a reality doesn't exist.

If it did, rational actor theory would let us prevent all the crimes that exist. Since no one thinks rational actor theory is a credible criminology theory, anything that relies on the same assumptions are equally as credible.
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:41 PM   #333
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Conceptually I agree with positive consent but in reality I don't think the way it is presented is realistic or feasible. The entire concept relies on individual parties acting rationally, when such a reality doesn't exist.

If it did, rational actor theory would let us prevent all the crimes that exist. Since no one thinks rational actor theory is a credible criminology theory, anything that relies on the same assumptions are equally as credible.
I'm not sure that follows. What I get from this is that because some people might not act rationally, it is not realistic to expect a person to get consent before penetrating another person? That doesn't sound reasonable to me.

However, as we've interacted and discussed things on this board numerous times, I'm pretty sure I've vastly oversimplified what you intended to say.
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:09 PM   #334
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What I read @Wildfeather as saying, Scrubb, is that it's unrealistic to expect someone to act in a prescribed manner in the 'heat of the moment' when the prescription was made by people thinking with the cold rationality of distance without considering the mindset of the people involved.

That doesn't absolve them of the act...but it does make some of the expectations, as laid out, appear laughably naive.

Each of the three examples Lindsey gave crossed the line into clear bad conduct, but, if the previous couple of pages demonstrate anything, it's that these issues are extremely complex.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:16 PM   #335
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Yeah, hearing the girl had offered verbal indications of her lack of interest (even if seemingly half-hearted) makes the issue a lot clearer to me.

I read it originally as her clamming up and giving zero indication.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:51 AM   #336
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What I read @Wildfeather as saying, Scrubb, is that it's unrealistic to expect someone to act in a prescribed manner in the 'heat of the moment' when the prescription was made by people thinking with the cold rationality of distance without considering the mindset of the people involved.

That doesn't absolve them of the act...but it does make some of the expectations, as laid out, appear laughably naive.

Each of the three examples Lindsey gave crossed the line into clear bad conduct, but, if the previous couple of pages demonstrate anything, it's that these issues are extremely complex.
That they are, but there's nothing naive about having an expectation of making sure someone else is agreeable when the alternative is called rape. Just because people act irrational "in the heat of the moment" doesn't absolve them from their acts. However, conditioning can and does change how one acts, even in the heat of the moment. As such it is foolish to condition for anything less than actual consent.

While neither you nor Wildfeather, I believe, are arguing that "heat of the moment" excuses (or lessens) the guilt of the rapist, I do have a visceral and intellectual problem with the argument. The first, I'll ignore, the second problem is that the argument seems to ignore several issues, the great of which is that getting verbal consent negates all these "extremely complex" issues.
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