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Old 07-02-2017, 08:45 AM   #1
Taure
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DLP Religion Survey 2017

As a spin-off from the main survey, here is a more detailed survey dedicated to religious matters.

Survey here.

Results here.
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Old 07-02-2017, 09:00 AM   #2
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Teaching children to believe in a specific religion is immoral
That can be interpreted in different manners.

For example teaching girls to be ashamed of their bodies (as in found in both conservative Christian and conservative Islamic ideologies) is certainly wrong, but I don't think a person who thinks their religion is right telling their kids it is right is inherently immoral.
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Old 07-02-2017, 09:14 AM   #3
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The question is not about specific doctrines. It is about whether it is immoral to try to pass on your religion to your children, whatever that religion is. I feel like the wording of the question is sufficiently clear on this point: the use of the indefinite article "a" indicates lack of specificity.
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Old 07-02-2017, 10:38 AM   #4
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Can morality exist without religion/god?
I am moral nihilist, so this question is quite confusing. If you're interested in it, read its wiki page.

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Teaching children to believe in a specific religion is immoral
I do agree it shouldn't be done, but because it is brainwashing, not because of moral reasons.

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Conservative Islam
I've been unable to find out what conservative or moderate mean in this context.
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:24 AM   #5
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I do agree it shouldn't be done, but because it is brainwashing, not because of moral reasons.
If you don't consider brainwashing a moral reason to be against something, I'd be interested in hearing your interpretation of what constitutes a moral reason.
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:32 AM   #6
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I don't care about children, I just don't want to live in a future where eating roasted beef is forbidden, christianity is all powerful and I would've noone to talk with, because everyone would be christian. I watch it IRL. My neighbors are both christian and all of their six girls are too now. Disgusting, wouldn't you say?

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Originally Posted by CheddarTrek View Post
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Yeah, I don't doublecheck what I write, because it would take too long to write a post. I talk to christians, of course.

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Old 07-02-2017, 11:34 AM   #7
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I don't care about children, I just don't want to live in a future where eating roasted beef is forbidden, christianity is all powerful and I would've noone to talk with, because everyone would be christian. I watch it IRL. My neighbors are both christian and all of their six girls are too now. Disgusting, wouldn't you say?
... No I can't say I would.

I was raised Christian and am now atheist, and can cheerfully say that I find you just as sad as the morons that told me it's a shame I'm atheist, because I'm a nice guy and it sucks I'll burn in hell just for that.

Seriously, what is your problem?

EDIT: On a different note, something that leapt out at me is that 67.6% said "Moderate Islam is a contradiction in terms", but 81.1% said "Moderate Christianity is a contradiction in terms". Anyone who said yes to the second and no to the first willing to expand on the view?
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:35 AM   #8
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The 1-5 labeling on the x-axis of the bar graphs make the results less clear at first glance. Is it possible to change the numbers to their respective agree-disagree choice?
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:49 PM   #9
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That can be interpreted in different manners.

For example teaching girls to be ashamed of their bodies (as in found in both conservative Christian and conservative Islamic ideologies) is certainly wrong, but I don't think a person who thinks their religion is right telling their kids it is right is inherently immoral.
Not to mention that teaching kids about religion can be done all kinds of ways. There's certainly a huge gap between explaining religion to your kids and your own personal beliefs (something I'm okay with) vs. hardcore abusive indoctrination (Not okay).
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Old 07-02-2017, 01:27 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Verovir View Post
I don't care about children, I just don't want to live in a future where eating roasted beef is forbidden, christianity is all powerful and I would've noone to talk with, because everyone would be christian. I watch it IRL. My neighbors are both christian and all of their six girls are too now. Disgusting, wouldn't you say?
I don't understand the bolded part. How does being christian prevent you having a conversation? I get that you might not want to discuss religion but it's not like religion is the only possible topic of conversation.

You could, for example, discuss your favorite book in the Harry Potter series with a christian without religion ever coming up.

...then again maybe you just phrased the statement poorly.
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Old 07-02-2017, 01:43 PM   #11
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Regarding the teaching children to believe a religion my preferred model is the way my parents did it.

My dad is a pastor. I went to church every Sunday. Learned about Christianity. Once I turned 16 though I was no longer required.

My dad said: "Faith in God and Jesus has to be your own choice. I've done my responsibility of teaching you what I believe to be true and the best way to live. But you're old enough now to determine that for yourself."

Honestly that freedom is probably why I still am a Christian. I had the opportunity to exam it for myself from numerous perspectives. At the end of the day, I ultimately find it to be true, but that was my choice and my research. Not indoctrination.
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Old 07-02-2017, 01:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by CheddarTrek View Post
I don't understand the bolded part. How does being christian prevent you having a conversation? I get that you might not want to discuss religion but it's not like religion is the only possible topic of conversation.

You could, for example, discuss your favorite book in the Harry Potter series with a christian without religion ever coming up.

...then again maybe you just phrased the statement poorly.
What really baffles me is the whole "Eating beef is forbidden" thing. Outside of Catholics on Lent, I'm not aware of any Christians who have issues with beef.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:19 PM   #13
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Stuff
To me it seems like he gave you a false choice. He used your most impressionable years to fill your head with his preferred beliefs, and then suddenly asks you whether you're going to continue to believe those? Of course you were going to, assuming that none of the beliefs he taught you truly went against something more central to your existence.

He didn't give you a fair choice, he took 16 years to brainwash you into giving the answer he wanted to hear.

And thats why I have a problem with teaching children about religion. They are totally impressionable, they'll believe things just because you tell them that they're true. They can't analyse or discriminate between arguments.

The fair and moral way for him to treat you would have been to not fill your head with Christianity for 16 years, then sit down with you to describe his beliefs and explain why he thinks they're true. At 16 you've got at least some ability to work through his arguments and reach your own conclusions on the subject, unbiased from a childhood of christian tuition.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:32 PM   #14
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And thats why I have a problem with teaching children about religion. They are totally impressionable, they'll believe things just because you tell them that they're true. They can't analyse or discriminate between arguments.
The key there is "because you tell them that they're true". That's not teaching about religion, that's just teaching religion. Teaching your child about religion would be saying "some people think X, but not everyone agrees".
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:40 PM   #15
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To me it seems like he gave you a false choice. He used your most impressionable years to fill your head with his preferred beliefs, and then suddenly asks you whether you're going to continue to believe those? Of course you were going to, assuming that none of the beliefs he taught you truly went against something more central to your existence.

He didn't give you a fair choice, he took 16 years to brainwash you into giving the answer he wanted to hear.

And thats why I have a problem with teaching children about religion. They are totally impressionable, they'll believe things just because you tell them that they're true. They can't analyse or discriminate between arguments.

The fair and moral way for him to treat you would have been to not fill your head with Christianity for 16 years, then sit down with you to describe his beliefs and explain why he thinks they're true. At 16 you've got at least some ability to work through his arguments and reach your own conclusions on the subject, unbiased from a childhood of christian tuition.
While I understand this argument, it is ultimately flawed. You are going to be taught a moral system and way to live regardless of whether or not your parents are religious or not. It can be argued that you are just as brainwashed into not believing Christianity by being raised in an athiest home.

Let us go back to the first part of your argument that assumes simply because I have been raised in the Christian tradition that I am going to continue believing that. Do you know what the Christian tradition requires? It requires abstinence from sex unless married. It requires avoiding being drunk. It involves devoting time and energy to something that isn't always fun. Do you know how many sixteen year olds want to sleep in on a sunday morning instead of going to church? How many hormonal sixteen year old would rather be sleeping around than staying abstinent? I certainly didn't stay abstinent. The instant I was free from those restrictions I lived several years completely ignoring faith and the lifestyle associated with it.

If a sixteen year old doesn't have to study Christianity or religion...I think I can say with certainty that the majority won't. Therefore, it is wisest to train a child in the faith not in an "I said so" way (which my father didn't), but rather in a here is what Christians believe. It was never an I said so. My father had me reading Josephus and Plato when I was thirteen.

Secondly, it assumes that being in the Christian religion you are unable to learn logic and solid reasoning. Christianity is a logical religion. There are logical arguments for the existence of God and Christianity as a religion. There are equally logical arguments against it, but Christianity has not been categorically be proven false.

Some of the greatest philosophers and masters of logic in all of human history have argued for the validity of Christianity. Some of those raised inside the Christian tradition have become some of the staunchest opponents to it. It is foolish to assume that simply because one has been raised inside the context of a religion that they are unable to form logical or coherent thought that contradicts said religion.

My father was Southern Baptist, staunchly conservative, and pro-american to the bone. I'm Reformed, detest the republican party, and honestly while I love my country am definitely aware of the flaws associated with it. We have numerous disagreements over theology, politics, and the way in which Christians should live...though we do still agree on Georgia football
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:41 PM   #16
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How did people interpret religious education in schools to mean? In my secondary school, we learnt about the major religions of the world and compared and contrasted them. I felt like this was quite useful since religion is a major part of society and it would merit actually learning about them as a part of general education. Of course, the textbook was obviously written by a Christian and it somewhat glossed over somethings imo but the I felt like the idea of teaching the major religions of the world in school had some merit.

I found it somewhat interesting most nearly half were outright against it.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:42 PM   #17
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Honestly? There's nothing morally wrong, or even ambiguous, about passing on your worldview and values to your children. Fundamentally, at least from a philosophical perspective, it's the entire purpose of parenthood. That you mold and shape your children into good people, who value the important things, and shun the terrible things. If you're religious, your religion is a pretty big part of that, and so it's absolutely something that you can and should do your best to pass on.

Now, that said, there's certainly a point too far, where you refuse to allow them to think for themselves, but, like pretty much every form of abuse, that's by far the minority and banning something for the exceptions is rather ludicrous, for what should be self-evident reasons.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:53 PM   #18
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What really baffles me is the whole "Eating beef is forbidden" thing. Outside of Catholics on Lent, I'm not aware of any Christians who have issues with beef.
Regarding the beef thing, there are Messianic Jews and smaller denominations that hold to it.

Scripturally speaking, its one of those things that is like, "If you want to honor God in that way, go for it, but you're not required to."
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Old 07-02-2017, 05:12 PM   #19
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While I understand this argument, it is ultimately flawed. You are going to be taught a moral system and way to live regardless of whether or not your parents are religious or not. It can be argued that you are just as brainwashed into not believing Christianity by being raised in an athiest home.
How is that a flawed argument? The counterfactual would be that a person raised apart from religious upbringing would spontaneously adopt Christianity. Atheism isn't a theology.

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Let us go back to the first part of your argument that assumes simply because I have been raised in the Christian tradition that I am going to continue believing that. Do you know what the Christian tradition requires? It requires abstinence from sex unless married. It requires avoiding being drunk. It involves devoting time and energy to something that isn't always fun.
I feel like your concept of Christianity is not a representative case.

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Christianity is a logical religion. There are logical arguments for the existence of God and Christianity as a religion. There are equally logical arguments against it, but Christianity has not been categorically be proven false.
...the fact that you are relying on proving a negative would tend to invalidate your appeal to logic. Proving a negative is impossible.
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Old 07-02-2017, 05:39 PM   #20
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How is that a flawed argument? The counterfactual would be that a person raised apart from religious upbringing would spontaneously adopt Christianity. Atheism isn't a theology.
It can easily be. Marxism is nothing more than an 'earthen' religion, for example, and atheism was central to it's core beliefs, specially the 'concrete' Marxism, of Marxism-Leninsm spin.

Dawkins anti-theism has also a cult-mentality, likewise the internet general take on religion as some kind of general brainwash for stupid people, that is so nocive that you can't teach your kids even if you believe it. It has a set of values, it has dogmas (which includes in denying everything about religions or the unexplained) and has lots of sub-sects, it's followers also refuse to accept other people's belief as any kind of right and many atheists think they're provedly smarter and more moral for not believing in an Old Man in the Sky.

Atheism by itself doesn't imply some kind of theology, but the way people, and specifically internet atheists, behave, it sure has lots of shades of it.

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...the fact that you are relying on proving a negative would tend to invalidate your appeal to logic. Proving a negative is impossible.
You also just did that in your first paragraph.

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