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Old 07-01-2017, 10:25 AM   #1
Mordecai
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Feminism 2017

Mod notice: Context: This thread was split from the DLP Survey 2017 thread.


Its interesting to see how divided folk are on the various political questions.

With the feminism question, it might have been worth providing some more varied options. Feminism has taken on different meaning to different people, I said that I'm a feminist because to me it means I believe in equality between the genders. But I know there are men who say they aren't feminist because they see feminism as no longer being about equality, its about women gaining superiority. So its perfectly valid for them to not be feminist, if that is what they see feminist as.
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Old 07-01-2017, 04:43 PM   #2
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The feminism one was a bit tricky as feminism has recently adopted a different tone than traditional feminism. Maybe a question like "do you support gender equality?" would be more precise as I, for one, do not believe in order believe in gender and pay equality you must be a feminist.
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:13 AM   #3
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Do you identify as a feminist? 50,5% yes
I am outta here. Why did I decide to join again?
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:32 AM   #4
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I am outta here. Why did I decide to join again?
That's a little abrupt. As others said, there's a good number of people who support gender equality but don't like describing themselves as feminists due to what some more extremists people do/say in its name. Not among them myself, but that's a little much no?
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:56 PM   #5
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I was actually pleasantly surprised by the percentage of people calling themselves femnist. I was expecting something close to 30%, based on, uh, prior experience.

I think the real issue is that some people have Snape as their favorite character.
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Old 07-04-2017, 02:52 AM   #6
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I was actually pleasantly surprised by the percentage of people calling themselves femnist. I was expecting something close to 30%, based on, uh, prior experience.
Really? I was expecting way more. I don't know anyone who wouldn't call themselves a femnist, even with some of the shitty femnist extremists out there.

Personally (and this may be because I am a woman), i've seen way more sexism against females than females being sexist against males (or wanting to be superior). Yeah, there are problems that men face and we need to solve them, but I still see many more problems that women face that men don't.

Then again, I also believe feminism hurts men as well. Like, why shouldn't men wear dresses and cover up (make up)? Dresses are so comfy and cover up hides unsightly blemishes.
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Old 07-04-2017, 03:39 AM   #7
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Really? I was expecting way more. I don't know anyone who wouldn't call themselves a femnist, even with some of the shitty femnist extremists out there.
Apparently you know many people who wouldn't.

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Personally (and this may be because I am a woman), i've seen way more sexism against females than females being sexist against males (or wanting to be superior).
As someone who has laid off a management-level employee for constantly attacking the masculinity of one of her subordinates (and in general just being a garbage troll of a woman), yes, your perspective is skewed.

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Then again, I also believe feminism hurts men as well. Like, why shouldn't men wear dresses and cover up (make up)? Dresses are so comfy and cover up hides unsightly blemishes.
We have a culture, most of us are plenty okay with it. Even if it was socially acceptable most of us would have no interest in either of those.
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Old 07-04-2017, 04:53 AM   #8
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Labels are fucking dumb anyways. It encourages groupthink and discourages discourse. Look at this:

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I am outta here. Why did I decide to join again?
Instead of asking why, she just jets because someone dares have a viewpoint that differs from hers. So obsessed with labels she doesn't even think to ask, "Wait, what if someone else has the same basic opinions on gender equality I do, but hates the term feminist and all the baggage it inherently carries?" A person like her is exactly why I don't want to be called a feminist, and she's not even an extreme example. @Lindsey, people might be open to not calling themselves feminist if not for the reactions they get from people like Verovir. You live in Seattle, I would never say anything against feminism there, it would be bad for my health.

These people are as bad as climate deniers and gay bashing Bible thumpers, in my opinion.
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Old 07-04-2017, 05:05 AM   #9
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Pretty sure Verovir was joking - she's posted a couple of times since then.
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Old 07-04-2017, 05:12 AM   #10
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Yeah Sree you racist, misogynistic troll.
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Old 07-04-2017, 05:27 AM   #11
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Then again, I also believe feminism hurts men as well. Like, why shouldn't men wear dresses and cover up (make up)? Dresses are so comfy and cover up hides unsightly blemishes.
Context derives meaning, and I think the enforcement of "brute equality" barring context diminishes our sense for occasion, time and place.

There are the kaftan, the thawb, and other such robe-like clothing designed for internal air circulation --- if you can find suitable occasion. Generally western male fashion has evolved around particular elements of design, with female fashion on its own parallel (sometimes reactionary, often separate) path. I could quote comfort, if one is willing to pay for material and a degree of construction, and lament the wastefulness of cheap/lean manufacturing industry besides.

Some streetwear designers are doing very cool things with androgynous silhouettes and cuts, wraps and drapes. But each is of a coherent design language drawn with continuity, one out of multitude interpretations, past to present. To obviate it all with a sweep of the hand and impose "brute equality" would be senseless destruction. (e.g. Mao's Cultural Revolution.)

One aspect I will acknowledge in my belief for equality between the sexes is that women have just as much right to a transparent fashion industry, where they can know, or demand that their dresses are made of S110 x 2 cottons and not out of thin gossamers of polyester that will rip at the slightest breeze; where shoes are welted with leather footbeds that mould to the feet over time; where "serious mechanisms" are just as acceptably appreciated by women to the contours of their own designs instead of the most superficial gewgaws pawned off to them by the watch sales(wo)men.

I do not think the market shifts would be supported by that yawning void of teen appetites for "one-and-done" dresses, the disposable likes of which will wreck havoc on the Earth for decades to come. Though such have never been the concern of women who go to male tailoring houses for women's suits and male shoemakers for women's shoes (the Carmina line is kept ever busy since they began marketing), if only because there are no equivalents in female fashion except at the highest, most unaffordable levels of couture.

Men have their leisurewear, streetwise or classic. Rouges and paints, in days past, were applied by Chinamen and tribal men for various purposes. Resurrect them, their empires and tribes, and you have your meaning and reason.





Verovir spoke half tongue-in-cheek, although sometimes there might be merit (see the above, ha) in playing it straight. I acknowledge feminism where the broader strokes of equality are concerned but don't pay much to some of the more damning particulars of the movement... as I stake myself at the much more general scheme of the individual.

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Old 07-04-2017, 07:02 AM   #12
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I don't know anyone who wouldn't call themselves a femnist, even with some of the shitty femnist extremists out there.
I wouldn't. I mean, lol, don't get me started.

Even back in the day I used to describe myself as an "equal opportunist" rather than anything else. Much like that rotten attorney of mine, Dr. Gonzo, I must have sensed trouble...

If I could snap my fingers and give Camille Paglia fourty years of youth, a knife, and an airtight alibi, we'd probably be knee-deep in regressive, sex-negative, third and fourth wave feminists by the next day. The current crop of crazies are way too numerous, too loud, too extreme, and their ideologies too fucked up for any of the sane old-schoolers to want to be associated with them.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a viaduct that needs a few finishing touches.
You know, so the next civilization will have something left to admire.

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There are the kaftan, the thawb, and other such robe-like clothing designed for internal air circulation --- if you can find suitable occasion.
If wearing a male skirt is sarong, you don't want to be right?
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Old 07-04-2017, 12:19 PM   #13
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They're called kilts, folks.

I wouldn't call myself a feminist in the current climate because I don't think that feminism means equal opportunity anymore, I think it's become equality of outcome at any cost. I believe in the former, not the latter.
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Old 07-04-2017, 12:25 PM   #14
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Instead of asking why, she just jets because someone dares have a viewpoint that differs from hers.
As you've cleverly demonstrated, there are some people with whom its just not worth engaging in an expectation of good faith. Also: who wouldn't want to stick around to argue when any time someone voices tepid support for a movement that says they deserves basic equality, three or four living embodiments of the "A Nuanced Critique" card from Cards Against Humanity pop up to say, "Well, actually . . .", and then two of those opinonators are the administrators of the forum? Come on, man.
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Old 07-04-2017, 01:37 PM   #15
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As you've cleverly demonstrated, there are some people with whom its just not worth engaging in an expectation of good faith. Also: who wouldn't want to stick around to argue when any time someone voices tepid support for a movement that says they deserves basic equality, three or four living embodiments of the "A Nuanced Critique" card from Cards Against Humanity pop up to say, "Well, actually . . .", and then two of those opinonators are the administrators of the forum? Come on, man.
I had difficulty following this statement. And since I did (sort of?) defend that poster on IRC last night, and you're mentioning forum staff, I'm curious if you could clarify. Use quotes.
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Old 07-04-2017, 03:58 PM   #16
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Your responses made me realize the main problem with feminist movement today: everyone has radically different ideas of what it was and what it has become.

For me... I think the movement has changed because we are no longer fighting the obvious. Women have voting rights, are able to work and hold money, are able to go to college, etc, etc. If you look just at the surface of it, the feminist movement has succeeded in many aspects.

Here is the original definition of feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. I feel like we have achieved much in economic and political aspects of it, but it's the social equality that is the hardest.

There is a lot hidden beneath the surface that still needs to change to help both men and women (in my opinion). I always thought the feminist movement was not just equality between men and women, but the destruction of the patriarchal society for an equal one. And yes, this does mean changing the culture of our society.

This would include things such as:
- Men not being judged for being a stay at home dads or not wanting to be the 'breadwinner'.
- Ending this weird fear that their children will be kidnapped or raped by any male that wants to help them.
- More male teachers, more female politicians, more female CEOs.
- Equality with household chores and child raising. Some newer studies have come out that women still spend vastly more time on childcare and cleaning compared to men, even when both work 40 hours a week.
- No women being judged for acting masculine, just like no men are judged for acting feminine. No male should be told they 'must be gay' because they like x.

I know there are radicals in this movement. But there are radicals in every movement. I refuse to let these assholes change it into something bitter and resentful. I don't judge the homosexual movement on its radicals, nor do I judge the black equality movements for theirs. Why is feminism different? I would easily say there are more traditionalists/red pillers/whatever we want to call them, more than there are radical feminists (outside of Tumblr...). Hell, America elected Trump even after all the sexist things he said. Needless to say, I feel like feminism is more needed than ever.

I feel like I am getting off topic though, perhaps all this should be its own thread, as I am curious to see what other people see feminism as nowadays, compared to what it was.

Your responses did make me realize that the survey was incomplete in this regard. Feminism is a radical issue right now with many facets now. If there had been a selection for 'I do not believe in many aspects of modern day feminism but I believe in the general principle.' It would have easily won. Then again, I doubt anyone would have voted no then as it would have meant more like: 'No, I do not even believe in the general principle of feminism, let us go back to the early 1900s...'
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Old 07-04-2017, 04:48 PM   #17
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Labels are fucking dumb anyways. It encourages groupthink and discourages discourse . . . .

These people are as bad as climate deniers and gay bashing Bible thumpers, in my opinion.


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Even back in the day I used to describe myself as an "equal opportunist" rather than anything else.
Reminds me of what a buddy of mine used to say: "I'm an equal opportunity bigot. I hate everyone."
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Old 07-04-2017, 05:15 PM   #18
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Yeah Sree you racist, misogynistic troll.
Sree isn't misogynistic.

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Your responses made me realize the main problem with feminist movement today: everyone has radically different ideas of what it was and what it has become.
I'd disagree with that. Everyone understands what feminism's original goal was, but with the serious issues out of the way I feel like modern day feminists have seized on the minor ones and over-inflated them. It's become aggressive and, frankly, unlikable.
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Old 07-04-2017, 05:24 PM   #19
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This might be best to move to a new thread if any mod would be so kind.


I do no consider myself a feminist. It's because feminism is not a unified and
homogeneous just as you said @Lindsey and I dislike the label.


When discussing this with female friends who consider them self feminists, they argue that a 50% female presence is the optimal outcome. No matter what. It does not matter if a man or a woman is more qualified for a position. If there are more of one gender/sex than the other in the work group then a the other gender/sex should get the job to balance things out.



I often argue that gender/sex should not matter. At all. Getting a job just because your gender/sex is incomprehensible to me. Why wouldn't you want the person best suited? What will gender/sex bring that is worth sacrificing other qualifications? I'm all for equal wages and opportunities for the same work. It pisses me off whenever I read that a female scientist is being passed up due to a reason that boils down to some some grumpy old bastards who does not think women should be in science. It pisses me off equally much when a man is denied a position because there are already too many men (or the other way around)



Our society is changing at a pretty fast pace (not fast enough for my feminist friends). The wage gap is closing and more women have high positions. More women are getting university degrees than men in Sweden at the moment, though it's still weighted to historical female occupations, like nursing and teaching (this seems to be one of the slowest things to change).



My friends are all for laws to force it to change quicker while I'm leaning to a more "give it some time" approach since the change is coming (all the stubborn old bastards just have to die).



I realize that Sweden is probably at the forefront for equality and other countries are some way behind so my view are probably biased somewhat.


What do you guys think is the best way forward?
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Old 07-04-2017, 06:06 PM   #20
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I understand, in part, why a lot of you dislike the feminist label, but I think you're overlooking some important issues.

On a biological scale, there is nothing (as far as I am aware) that would make a man better at quantum mechanics, for example, than a woman. If you were to take every person and raise them with solid nutrition, education, safety and security, with no expectations limiting them, a certain percentage of those people would be amazing at a specific field. This subset would have, on average, a gender, sexuality and racial balance matching that of the overall population. Yet, most scientific fields are dominated by white men, because those factors are not met. This means /we are missing out/ on people who could have helped invent, design and improve the future.

Equal opportunity is about creating a level playing field, not by dragging those who are better off down, but by lifting those who do not have a chance up. Simply picking the best person for a school or the best person for job, while good in the short term, missing the bigger story of that person's history and how they may grow or contribute new ideas.

Ideally, we would live in a world where everyone would have an equal shot from birth. Instead, we have to settle and try to offer opportunities to those who could not receive them. This is why there are programs going into schools to teach girls programming and get them interested in science, when their role models may have otherwise made it seems like a science degree was not an option. This is also why my college admission try to account for race and background, and have sometimes stepped into controversial things like quotas.

Accounting for a discrepancy in opportunity is hard, and risks being unfair to those who have already put in a lot of work. I think it's important that we at least have the debate about it and feminism has historically helped make that debate happen.

Additionally, I'm concerned with institutions approach to sexual assault. During my time at university, my friends were stalked, roofied and assaulted. These are among several of my friends and are the just the incidents I am aware off. The administration's response was useless, with the stalker getting a warning that he then ignored and continued his prior behavior, the date rapist eventually getting suspended after several more accusations from various women, and the sexual assault guy never having any trouble.

A male friend of mine was also groped, and had his friends laugh it off, because they assumed that men don't get sexual assaulted. As far as I'm aware, that incident was never resolved. At this moment, I'm concerned that a man is stalking me at job. Odds are he's just a guy who thinks I'm kind of cute and is really bad at flirting, but I can't know that, and it scares me.

I acknowledge that it is important to protect people false accused of sexual assault, but it's also important to protect victims. I think we have a long way to go in that regard.

There's also the issue gender identity and gender roles. I think Lindsey explained that very well.

So, yes, I identify as a feminist and appreciate others who do as well and work to improve these and other issues. I do not appreciate those who tarnish the whole movement with their idiocy and people who take those idiots as a serious representations.
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