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Old 07-09-2017, 06:31 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Agayek View Post
It serves literally no purpose except virtue signalling and back patting to flip your shit when Trump tweets something. Save it for when he actually does something, like the godawful Obamacare replacement.
The problem with taking this approach is that Trump's tweets are the closest thing we get to official statements from the White House. Trump has undermined the credibility of his public representatives and communications department to the point that we can't take anything they say with a grain of salt--hell, Trump himself has said that the only person who speaks for him is himself. In addition, if there's one thing I've learned from the election, is that we have to take Trump's statements (wherever they are said and by whatever medium) seriously and literally; his actions as President to date require nothing less.
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:38 PM   #162
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Invictus' point isn't that you should ignore Trump's shenanigans; it's instead that Trump is deliberately baiting the media to stir up misplaced outrage and continue with his ongoing efforts to smear the press into oblivion.
That's as may be, but neither Invictus nor I can say definitively when Trump is trying to troll us. Sometimes it's more obvious like 'Obama wiretapped me' or 'Comey better hope no tapes', but it's usually not clear. And considering this time around he was tweeting his read-out of his meeting with Putin, and NO ONE refuted any of it, I think it's pretty damn obvious that he was serious.

I'm not going to spend my time and bandwidth dissecting his statements if I think one is bogus, but I sure as hell will when I think he's being serious.

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The point, as far as I can tell anyway, is twofold. A) Actions speak louder than words, and B) Public outrage has a finite cap before it becomes blase and business as usual. Stemming from that, stirring up public outrage over words, when the actions that would back those words are either completely meaningless or nonexistent, does nothing but help accelerate the journey to the outrage becoming blase.
I get the value of not becoming the kid who cried wolf. But having said that, if you adopt the attitude of 'whatever, man, he's just trolling us' all the time, sooner or later, you're gonna get fucked with your pants on.

I also think that the reverse of what you said is true, too. The more we all sit around and ignore what he does because we only want to rock the boat 'when it's important', the more we let him redefine what is normal without a fuss. It's the frog-in-a-pot-of-warming-water thing. Sooner or later, it's boiling, and you're dead.
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:31 PM   #163
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He's the president. That's the reality. So what he says matters.
And here I was thinking that he bombed Syria only on a joke. But sure, virtue signal to me about the sacredness of the office more. If you want to take everything to the extreme and either take all of it completely serious, or nothing serious, hey, your country, your government. You can always go deeper I guess.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:02 PM   #164
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The problem with taking this approach is that Trump's tweets are the closest thing we get to official statements from the White House. Trump has undermined the credibility of his public representatives and communications department to the point that we can't take anything they say with a grain of salt--hell, Trump himself has said that the only person who speaks for him is himself. In addition, if there's one thing I've learned from the election, is that we have to take Trump's statements (wherever they are said and by whatever medium) seriously and literally; his actions as President to date require nothing less.
See, here's the problem. You think Trump ever says anything other than whatever he thinks will be most advantageous to him personally at that exact moment.

There's a reason Trump's record of public statements is one long line of contradictions, inaccuracies, and outright lies, and it's not because he values his word or pays attention to what he's saying.

What he posts on Twitter is of literally zero value, to literally everyone, and the fixation on it is actively harming the media and the various institutions that exist solely to limit and contain someone like Trump.

What you should be taking both seriously and literally are his actions, such as the attacks on Assad, the botched raid in Yemen, his non-response to Erdogan's bodyguards attacking US citizens, Trumpcare, etc. That is the dangerous and meaningful aspect, and that is where all the outrage and attention needs to be focused if we want to have any hope of mitigating the disaster Trump is going to leave in his wake.

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I also think that the reverse of what you said is true, too. The more we all sit around and ignore what he does because we only want to rock the boat 'when it's important', the more we let him redefine what is normal without a fuss. It's the frog-in-a-pot-of-warming-water thing. Sooner or later, it's boiling, and you're dead.
Who said anything about ignoring what he does? Where on Earth did you get that? I mean, I literally said "[Flipping out over a tweet] serves literally no purpose except virtue signalling and back patting to flip your shit when Trump tweets something. Save it for when he actually does something, like the godawful Obamacare replacement."

My point is, as it always was, that you should absolutely be up in arms when Trump does something heinous. But, like any sane person, you should ignore Twitter to the fullest extent humanly possible, because it's entirely meaningless to everything and fixating on it is actively harmful to your cause.

If/when this joint US/Russia cybersecurity task force comes about, then hold his goddamn feet to the fire. Find every single issue with it and don't ever let anyone forget it. But while it's only a tweet from someone from whom hearing a lie is more reliable and consistent than the truth, and who is on record trying to paint his opposition as hysterical scaremongers that overreact to nothing, stop playing his goddamn game.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:09 PM   #165
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Ok, Invictus is a cunt, but I think he's right on this count.

So much of the furore around Trump is all smoke, but no fire. I think Agayek hit the nail on the head when he said:

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The point, as far as I can tell anyway, is twofold. A) Actions speak louder than words, and B) Puiblic outrage has a finite cap before it becomes blase and business as usual. Stemming from that, stirring up public outrage over words, when the actions that would back those words are either completely meaningless or nonexistent, does nothing but help accelerate the journey to the outrage becoming blase.

It serves literally no purpose except virtue signalling and back patting to flip your shit when Trump tweets something. Save it for when he actually does something, like the godawful Obamacare replacement.
In general, Trump is in a very difficult position, in that the establishment hates him with a passion, as he was elected on the basis that he would 'drain the swamp'. Just like the Republicans did to Obama, the liberal establishment will do anything and everything they can to discredit him. And so he's playing the counter game, he gives keeps giving them ammunition to use against him, but never actually does anything that bad. All this does is discredit those who repeatedly fall for the bait. As you say, soon it will become the new normal, and create an extremely dangerous precedent.

So the question really becomes, how do you counter the narrative? That is a question to which I think there is no easy answer, but, as long as we keep flinging shit, none of which has stuck so far, we play a losing game. Death by attrition.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:18 PM   #166
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But sure, virtue signal to me ...
Oh, fuck off.

--

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See, here's the problem. You think Trump ever says anything other than whatever he thinks will be most advantageous to him personally at that exact moment.

There's a reason Trump's record of public statements is one long line of contradictions, inaccuracies, and outright lies, and it's not because he values his word or pays attention to what he's saying.

What he posts on Twitter is of literally zero value, to literally everyone, and the fixation on it is actively harming the media and the various institutions that exist solely to limit and contain someone like Trump.
Except that what he says does have real-world consequences. Take the court cases against his ban, for example. We should not be ignoring what he's saying, because even if he's a blowhard, what he says still matters.

Quote:
My point is, as it always was, that you should absolutely be up in arms when Trump does something heinous. But, like any sane person, you should ignore Twitter to the fullest extent humanly possible, because it's entirely meaningless to everything and fixating on it is actively harmful to your cause.

If/when this joint US/Russia cybersecurity task force comes about, then hold his goddamn feet to the fire. Find every single issue with it and don't ever let anyone forget it. But while it's only a tweet from someone from whom hearing a lie is more reliable and consistent than the truth, then stop playing his goddamn game.
I do not see the utility in waiting for him to commit some egregious action when it is possible to dissuade him from the beginning. He talks a lot of shit, but he always does what he says. So what he says matters just as much as what he does.

So I'm going to go ahead and bring it up when he says he's going to do something retarded, because you know what, it's fucking important.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:22 PM   #167
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So the question really becomes, how do you counter the narrative? That is a question to which I think there is no easy answer, but, as long as we keep flinging shit, none of which has stuck so far, we play a losing game. Death by attrition.
Honestly? You counter the narrative by sticking to concrete facts and clear actions, and not giving in to outrage or, well, narratives.

Trump says something stupid? Fine, whatever. It's words from an idiot.

You wait until he acts, and then you hammer on that and exactly how bad that act was in concrete terms forever. To take this US/Russia cybersecurity thing as an example, right now, you roll your eyes and move on with your life. And in a month or two, whenever it gets started, you then go through it with a fine-toothed comb, you find all the bad actors and problems in it, and you run expose after expose about how what they do can impact the average citizen. Even better if you can find some working class schlub that did get screwed by something similar and draw all the parallels.

For another, existing example, take the media's general response to the Obamacare repeal and Trumpcare in general. That's been a largely very good response, making it quite clear to people exactly how bad it is and how it impacts them directly.

They just need to stop making the quality work like that get lost in the noise of "Oh God, Trump said a thing!" that's drowning it all out.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:31 PM   #168
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You wait until he acts, and then you hammer on that and exactly how bad that act was in concrete terms forever. To take this US/Russia cybersecurity thing as an example, right now, you roll your eyes and move on with your life. And in a month or two, whenever it gets started, you then go through it with a fine-toothed comb, you find all the bad actors and problems in it, and you run expose after expose about how what they do can impact the average citizen.
Except a) You shouldn't wait to complain about something that would be catastrophic to our country's national security, b) it would be catastrophic from the instant it began, c) for fuck's sake, Russia is our enemy, and d) it would be classified, so we, the public, have no way to know when it begins, how it works, or who's involved.

So while your strategy might work for raking Trumpcare over the coals and making sure everyone knows about it, it does not work for this.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:32 PM   #169
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So the question really becomes, how do you counter the narrative? That is a question to which I think there is no easy answer, but, as long as we keep flinging shit, none of which has stuck so far, we play a losing game. Death by attrition.
The way you do it is by treating him like a normal politician, which requires paying attention to his public statements and taking what he says seriously and literally. Trump's tweets are not dust in the wind; they have concrete tangible influence and/or show the reasons behind policy decisions and/or what he thinks about any given policy. This is all important and useful information.

I agree that becoming outraged can be counterproductive when excessive or unwarranted, but Trump says and does a lot of things that are genuinely outrageous for the President of the United States. Acting on that is treating him like a normal politician, which is exactly what we should be doing.
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:05 PM   #170
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The way you do it is by treating him like a normal politician, which requires paying attention to his public statements and taking what he says seriously and literally. Trump's tweets are not dust in the wind; they have concrete tangible influence and/or show the reasons behind policy decisions and/or what he thinks about any given policy. This is all important and useful information.

I agree that becoming outraged can be counterproductive when excessive or unwarranted, but Trump says and does a lot of things that are genuinely outrageous for the President of the United States. Acting on that is treating him like a normal politician, which is exactly what we should be doing.
That's a good strategy... If you stick by what they're doing and not solely on their words. That's the thing with Chavez and co. in Venezuela. He shat so so so much retarded stuff, but what he did was actually superficially beneficial to the larger population or at least those that voted for him. So people just tuned out the opposition, because instead of them digging deeper in what he was doing and trying to uncover the long term consequences and THEN trying to connect with the voters, they just kept screaming how Chavez was the devil and he would destroy the nation.

Well turns out that if you can't communicate, even if your message is perfect, it will make no difference.

It's a proven fact that population at large, even Dems, have much bigger worries than the Russian connection. The timeslot allocated to focus and talk about that should be somehow proportional to the public interest on it. Trying to bombard them with it to try to make them care more isn't working.

And Trump just did a complete turn around and said the cybersecurity stuff won't happen. As expected. Color me shocked. http://hill.cm/3MhypVi

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Old 07-10-2017, 04:08 AM   #171
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I genuinely don't fucking understand why some Americans, including certain smart/educated people here on DLP, aren't appropriately concerned about the Russian interference and collusion business.

Even if you think Trump's campaign is innocent of collusion (which they aren't, especially in light of the most recent Trump Jr. revelations), the fact is that Russian intervened once already - not just the fake news and propaganda shit but actual hacking of voter rolls and attempts to alter them. The only reason they stopped was that Obama threatened retaliation and Putin, who had already gotten so much more than he had expected, desisted.

Now you have as President someone who half the time denies that any of this even took place, and the other half of the time not doing anything about it. How can we trust that the 2018 and 2020 elections will be fair? That they aren't compromised by hacking and the like? This is a disaster not just for representative government, but also for civil peace, because if evidence emerges that an election has been stolen by a hostile foreign power who's aiding your hated partisan opponents, there'll be blood in the streets.

I encourage you guys to take this most seriously.
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:40 AM   #172
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Regardless of what you think of Trump's continuous tweeting, fact of the matter is that his press secretary stated that the tweets are official statements.. That, if nothing else, should mean that there should be attention paid to the tweets. Whether you hold them as gospel or as mere blathering, well, we've spent pages on that before.

In proof that life loves its little ironies: Comey's private memoranda have been deemed classified after the fact..
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:47 AM   #173
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How is this being perceived in the rest of the world? Local news make it out to be an incredible embarassment for Germany - a notion I'm not sure I agree with.

It is horrible - for people living there especially, and yes, response time could have been better, I am sure. But you can't just wall off a whole city, say nothing of controlling how the rioting elements of society will behave. They'd find a way to riot anyway, no matter the city or country.
Danish media talks about it as if it is a fact of life when holding these kind of things (which is pretty much the truth), no blame is being put at Merkel's feet at either.

It is well know, that with the open border Europe, left wing activists from all over the continent will come to these event and try to cause chaos. Foreigners are often the worst trouble makers and most host countries have experienced this.

What was also shown, just as much, was the unity the city showed afterwards in the cleanup process. Hundreds, if not thousands of people on the streets with brooms and buckets. This is a huge boon to Merkel in that it shows that the common people are united against these riots.
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Why? Whitening America of course.
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:57 AM   #174
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I genuinely don't fucking understand why some Americans, including certain smart/educated people here on DLP, aren't appropriately concerned about the Russian interference and collusion business.

Even if you think Trump's campaign is innocent of collusion (which they aren't, especially in light of the most recent Trump Jr. revelations), the fact is that Russian intervened once already - not just the fake news and propaganda shit but actual hacking of voter rolls and attempts to alter them. The only reason they stopped was that Obama threatened retaliation and Putin, who had already gotten so much more than he had expected, desisted.

Now you have as President someone who half the time denies that any of this even took place, and the other half of the time not doing anything about it. How can we trust that the 2018 and 2020 elections will be fair? That they aren't compromised by hacking and the like? This is a disaster not just for representative government, but also for civil peace, because if evidence emerges that an election has been stolen by a hostile foreign power who's aiding your hated partisan opponents, there'll be blood in the streets.

I encourage you guys to take this most seriously.
You misunderstand. At this point, it's basically universally understood that Trump colluded with Russia in the election and the US engine of democracy is at best tainted, if not outright entirely compromised. That's incredibly concerning, and anyone that doesn't want Trump gone and Putin impaled on a spike is criminally stupid.

However, there's a difference between being concerned and giving into hysteria whenever Trump says nearly anything. And the latter is all I'm speaking against. It's actively harmful to ousting Trump or limiting his power, and diffuses the energy and outrage that should be pointed his way.

It is orders of magnitude more effective and powerful for people to be outraged over one big thing than one million small ones. And so, I will always caution people to stand firmly on the important things, but Jesus Christ, stop shooting yourself in the foot.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:46 AM   #175
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You misunderstand. At this point, it's basically universally understood that Trump collided with Russia in the election and the US engine of democracy is at best tainted, if not outright entirely compromised. That's incredibly concerning, and anyone that doesn't want Trump gone and Putin impaled on a spike is criminally stupid.

However, there's a difference between being concerned and giving into hysteria whenever Trump says nearly anything. And the latter is all I'm speaking against. It's actively harmful to ousting Trump or limiting his power, and diffuses the energy and outrage that should be pointed his way.

It is orders of magnitude more effective and powerful for people to be outraged over one big thing than one million small ones. And so, I will always caution people to stand firmly on the important things, but Jesus Christ, stop shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm pretty much in agreement with the sentiment of this. In the 2017 land of social media, it's pretty easy to get to the point where you're saying "FFS, enough already" because you don't want to make it a situation where you're crying wolf.

I think where the problem lies is there have been a dozen or more things that in any previous presidency, would have been the 'one big thing' to get pissed about. I just don't know what happened to America to make things like collusion with our largest enemy of multiple generations, sexual assault, publicly shitting on the family of a dead veteran, attempting to see teenaged girls naked, fraud, hiring multiple people that have no qualifications or connection to the multi-billion-dollar offices they're supposed to be in charge of, making the rest of the world (well, except Russia apparently) think they can't trust America... normal?

Any one or two of these would have been career and political suicide for anyone else before or after election, but it's just background noise at this point, and I don't get it. How the fuck did all this get normalized to so many Americans?

I guess there's something to be said for how many people in this country enjoy garbage TV about garbage human beings. They voted for the avatar of it, after all.
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:58 PM   #176
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I just don't know what happened to America to make things like collusion with our largest enemy of multiple generations, sexual assault, publicly shitting on the family of a dead veteran, attempting to see teenaged girls naked, fraud, hiring multiple people that have no qualifications or connection to the multi-billion-dollar offices they're supposed to be in charge of, making the rest of the world (well, except Russia apparently) think they can't trust America... normal?

Any one or two of these would have been career and political suicide for anyone else before or after election, but it's just background noise at this point, and I don't get it. How the fuck did all this get normalized to so many Americans?

I guess there's something to be said for how many people in this country enjoy garbage TV about garbage human beings. They voted for the avatar of it, after all.
I don't think it's become normal. Rather, Trump was voted into office because he was abnormal. Most sane politicians wouldn't openly flaunt these things but because Trump does, he stands out in the worst and, for many, the best way possible.. I think a lot of Americans have reached a point where they would rather face the devil they don't know than the one's they do.
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Old 07-10-2017, 01:34 PM   #177
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@Johnnyseattle

Polarization. If the ideological/policy differences between the two parties are small, things like character and individual scandals make a difference. E.g. I probably prefer the German SDP on domestic policy and the conservatives on FP/Russia, but Merkel's leadership and integrity makes the difference.

But given how the Republicans have moved so far to the right (e.g. birtherism, climate change denialism, anti-healthcare etc) - utterly unlike normal and sane right-wing parties you see in Europe/Japan/Australia - things like character and individual scandals just don't matter to their base and their politicians anymore. If you genuinely think liberals and their policy ideas are Stalinism or something close to it, and are/will destroy the country, then pussy grabbing, watching naked children, even throwing an election and whatever, just don't matter in comparison. These are just necessary evils that have to be tolerated to save America.

The logic goes both ways. Donald Trump and the modern Republican party are so incredibly dangerous to America and the world - their continued hold on power threatens American national security, healthcare for millions, the global climate, the civil liberties of blacks and other minorities, secularism in America, etc etc - this being so, would we not tolerate bad behaviour from our own politicians, if that is what it takes to defeat Trump? What is mere pussygrabbing, after all, when all the world is at stake?

And so the descent starts and never stops.
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Old 07-10-2017, 06:07 PM   #178
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I have always been fairly liberal when it comes to social issues, moderate on fiscal policy, and conservative on international policy so I consider myself to be a bit of an odd ball so I find the sudden liberal rage against Russia hilarious. They had 8 years to improve our cyber security, but instead kept up the post 9/11 paranoia of the Bush Administration and only focused on spying on Americans. I recall Mitt Romney calling for a tougher foreign policy against Russia and Obama, Hillary Clinton, and every major Democrat said that he was crazy and wanted to start a new Cold War. If they want to complain about the failure of American Democracy they can look at a mirror and know they helped cause it. Their failures allowed the Russian to get their info and they just waited for the right candidate to feed it to.
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Old 07-10-2017, 07:01 PM   #179
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They had 8 years to improve our cyber security, but instead kept up the post 9/11 paranoia of the Bush Administration and only focused on spying on Americans.
Oh, how little you know...
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Old 07-10-2017, 07:12 PM   #180
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Oh, how little you know...
Oh and spied on allies too.
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