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Old 07-11-2017, 07:29 AM   #181
ASmallBundleOfToothpicks
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Murica Why some lefties aren't as worried about Russian Collusion

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Originally Posted by fire View Post
I genuinely don't fucking understand why some Americans, including certain smart/educated people here on DLP, aren't appropriately concerned about the Russian interference and collusion business.

Even if you think Trump's campaign is innocent of collusion (which they aren't, especially in light of the most recent Trump Jr. revelations), the fact is that Russian intervened once already - not just the fake news and propaganda shit but actual hacking of voter rolls and attempts to alter them. The only reason they stopped was that Obama threatened retaliation and Putin, who had already gotten so much more than he had expected, desisted.

Now you have as President someone who half the time denies that any of this even took place, and the other half of the time not doing anything about it. How can we trust that the 2018 and 2020 elections will be fair? That they aren't compromised by hacking and the like? This is a disaster not just for representative government, but also for civil peace, because if evidence emerges that an election has been stolen by a hostile foreign power who's aiding your hated partisan opponents, there'll be blood in the streets.

I encourage you guys to take this most seriously.
Well, to be entirely fair, our elections probably weren't directly affected by Russian Collusion. Is the Trump administration's clear ties to Russian oligarchs worrying? Yeah. Did it decide the election? No. Crosscheck, funded the Kochs, had a much more quantifiable effect. IIRC they purged 10% of the registered voters in Illinois. I know they had ops in Wisconsin, Iowa, and other swing states too. Florida has a system to purge black "felons" from their rolls because they're likely democratic voters. For non-US residents, African Americans are extremely predictable as a voting demographic, something like 80% usually vote Democratic, which makes them convenient targets for election fraud, since they also don't have much power or money to fight against in the courts.

On top of that, Clinton ran the worst presidential campaign in recent memory- worse than Kerry's, I'd argue. If you want to really dig into how peoples' votes are stolen, look up Greg Palast and his documentary "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy." Our elections aren't free and/or fair. They're totally rigged, and they have been pretty much since the inception of our country. Crying about Russian interference rings hollow to a lot the lefties because they're aware of how corrupt our political system is.

(Don't worry my right-wing dudes/dudettes, Democrats are just as corrupt and use the exact same tactics as the Republicans to maintain a stranglehold on what power they've got left, to service many of the same donors. To quote Carlin, "It's a big club, and you ain't in it.")

That said, Trump's Russian connections are a legitimate concern- just like Clinton's Saudi connections. However, she's not president. The main concern with the Trump-Russia connection for most lefties is what it signals in terms of potential crackdowns on Freedom of speech, and other authoritarian leanings.

Last edited by ASmallBundleOfToothpicks; 07-11-2017 at 07:30 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:35 AM   #182
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@Johnnyseattle

Polarization. If the ideological/policy differences between the two parties are small, things like character and individual scandals make a difference. E.g. I probably prefer the German SDP on domestic policy and the conservatives on FP/Russia, but Merkel's leadership and integrity makes the difference.

But given how the Republicans have moved so far to the right (e.g. birtherism, climate change denialism, anti-healthcare etc) - utterly unlike normal and sane right-wing parties you see in Europe/Japan/Australia - things like character and individual scandals just don't matter to their base and their politicians anymore. If you genuinely think liberals and their policy ideas are Stalinism or something close to it, and are/will destroy the country, then pussy grabbing, watching naked children, even throwing an election and whatever, just don't matter in comparison. These are just necessary evils that have to be tolerated to save America.

The logic goes both ways. Donald Trump and the modern Republican party are so incredibly dangerous to America and the world - their continued hold on power threatens American national security, healthcare for millions, the global climate, the civil liberties of blacks and other minorities, secularism in America, etc etc - this being so, would we not tolerate bad behaviour from our own politicians, if that is what it takes to defeat Trump? What is mere pussygrabbing, after all, when all the world is at stake?

And so the descent starts and never stops.
Yeah. Damn those Republicans for demonizing the other side and calling them monstrous monsters. Polarization really is the root of all evil, hysteria then? Literally worse than Hitler.

/Rolls eyes. GOP doesn't look much different from the 80s. In contrast Blue Dog Democrats and Dixiecrats all died and the Dems are restricted to the coasts. You can either believe that everyone but the coasts became ultra-conservatives... Or Dems and the coasts turned very very liberal.

Compare Clinton and Sanders platform. Or Sanders and Kerry. Even Hillary's platform was much more to the left. Meanwhile Trump internal affairs measures aren't far from what Bush Jr. or Reagan's ones.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:19 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by ASmallBundleOfToothpicks View Post
That said, Trump's Russian connections are a legitimate concern- just like Clinton's Saudi connections. However, she's not president. The main concern with the Trump-Russia connection for most lefties is what it signals in terms of potential crackdowns on Freedom of speech, and other authoritarian leanings.
I think this baffles me more than most things - how the hell can there be this complete xenophobia against all things Islam and Middle East by so much of the country over several administrations running, yet there's always this blind spot for the biggest piece of shit of the region? The current administration works its hardest to ban six countries from entering the USA for dubious-at-best reasons, then makes a $100B+ arms offer to arguably the largest funder of terrorism and spreader of radical ideology on the planet? GTFO.

This isn't just a current problem either - it's not like the previous did anything different - $100B+ over the last eight years to them too. Aside of handwaving it away with the usual "because oil", I just don't get it.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:24 AM   #184
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Man the Donald Trump Jr. shit might have legs.

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The June 3, 2016, email sent to Donald Trump Jr. could hardly have been more explicit: One of his father’s former Russian business partners had been contacted by a senior Russian government official and was offering to provide the Trump campaign with dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The documents “would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father,” read the email, written by a trusted intermediary, who added, “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

If the future president’s elder son was surprised or disturbed by the provenance of the promised material — or the notion that it was part of an ongoing effort by the Russian government to aid his father’s campaign — he gave no indication.

He replied within minutes: “If it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer.”

Four days later, after a flurry of emails, the intermediary wrote back, proposing a meeting in New York on Thursday with a “Russian government attorney.”
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/1....co/1WWLrSerOD

I smell pardons incoming, because if collusion is indeed a crime and it really doesn't matter if that Russian lawyer even gave anything, Mueller was just handed an open-and-shut case.

You can't really get more explicit than this outside of literally going:

>> "Hello, I am a drug dealer, would you like to buy some some drugs?"

>> "Yes, I'd like to by some drugs please."
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:29 AM   #185
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Man the Donald Trump Jr. shit might have legs.



https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/1....co/1WWLrSerOD

I smell pardons incoming, because if collusion is indeed a crime and it really doesn't matter if that Russian lawyer even gave anything, Mueller was just handed an open-and-shut case.

You can't really get more explicit than this outside of literally going:

>> "Hello, I am a drug dealer, would you like to buy some some drugs?"

>> "Yes, I'd like to by some drugs please."
You forgot about publishing it all on Facebook and tagging your local police department.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:32 AM   #186
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I think this baffles me more than most things - how the hell can there be this complete xenophobia against all things Islam and Middle East by so much of the country over several administrations running, yet there's always this blind spot for the biggest piece of shit of the region? The current administration works its hardest to ban six countries from entering the USA for dubious-at-best reasons, then makes a $100B+ arms offer to arguably the largest funder of terrorism and spreader of radical ideology on the planet? GTFO.

This isn't just a current problem either - it's not like the previous did anything different - $100B+ over the last eight years to them too. Aside of handwaving it away with the usual "because oil", I just don't get it.
Pretty much this. I think it's a "They're assholes, but they're our raghead assholes," mentality. Also, CNN and Fox tend to treat them like a legitimate nation, rather than the US's North Korea.

Last edited by ASmallBundleOfToothpicks; 07-11-2017 at 11:35 AM. Reason: fucking autocorrect
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:59 PM   #187
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You forgot about publishing it all on Facebook and tagging your local police department.
This email shit is so ridiculous, Louise Mensch didn't even make it up.
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Old 07-11-2017, 01:08 PM   #188
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This email shit is so ridiculous, Louise Mensch didn't even make it up.
As someone studying to be a lawyer I just can't believe someone was that stupid. I just can't. It has to be fake and he is trolling everyone. Or he is so fucking dumb that he must have someone to remember him how to breath every week least he forgets how.
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Old 07-11-2017, 02:09 PM   #189
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At least the Trump family is still sticking it to Fake Journalists.

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Old 07-11-2017, 02:31 PM   #190
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The full chain is (sadly) hilarious: https://twitter.com/JYSexton
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Old 07-11-2017, 02:43 PM   #191
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So is Donald Jr's email.

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Old 07-11-2017, 04:32 PM   #192
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The full chain is (sadly) hilarious: https://twitter.com/JYSexton
I think this one was my favorite.

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I don't think it ever occurred to journalists to just ask one of the Trump's for proof of collusion. In retrospect that feels nearsighted?
Maybe they really should've tried that earlier lol
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:27 PM   #193
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These email shenanigans are the first thing that is truly damaging to Trump, and may actually put him in real trouble for the first time. However, I don't know if it'll actually do as much damage as it should, as people have been 'outraged' for too long. Those who already hate him will hate him more. Those who like him will probably just assume it's more attacks by the establishment liberal elite and ignore it.

We'll see how the fallout from this goes, but if it doesn't stick, I think it'll be a great example of what Agayek is talking about. And why playing his game, and reacting to every single thing he says is a bad idea.
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Old 07-11-2017, 07:12 PM   #194
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As someone studying to be a lawyer I just can't believe someone was that stupid. I just can't. It has to be fake and he is trolling everyone. Or he is so fucking dumb that he must have someone to remember him how to breath every week least he forgets how.
My understanding is that the Times had copies of them, and asked him for comment, and told him that they would be writing more stories on it, so he (apparently) released them to get out ahead of it. I don't see how it helps him at all, unless he doctored them to be less-awful, but if that were the case, then the Times would release the real ones?

He's not the spiciest chili in the spice cabinet.

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...reacting to every single thing he says is a bad idea.
But, really, every single thing he says is a bad idea.
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Old 07-11-2017, 07:46 PM   #195
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Junior released the emails for one key reason; so his alt-right core supporters can all go "nee nee, he released the emails so he must be innocent, also remember seth rich also shillary ate paedophile babies''.

And you know what? It fucking worked.
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Old 07-11-2017, 08:13 PM   #196
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But, really, every single thing he says is a bad idea.
I completely agree. But the fact of the matter is, it's turned into a war of attrition, one that we are losing. What matters more, reality or perception? Ultimately, it's perception that determines reality, as if people perceive this as less than it is, then how is it not damaging?

This is the crux of where I fundamentally disagree with what you and Banta have been saying. It doesn't matter how right you are if you still fail.
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Old 07-11-2017, 08:21 PM   #197
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This is the crux of where I fundamentally disagree with what you and Banta have been saying. It doesn't matter how right you are if you still fail.
I don't think 'saving up the outrage' is viable. Why should we let 95% of the bullshit pass on the vain hope that the 5% will be the stuff that kills him? I think it will be the sheer weight of it all that will get him, not a sudden left-hook.
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Old 07-11-2017, 08:28 PM   #198
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I don't think 'saving up the outrage' is viable. Why should we let 95% of the bullshit pass on the vain hope that the 5% will be the stuff that kills him? I think it will be the sheer weight of it all that will get him, not a sudden left-hook.
People in Venezuela thought this too.
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Old 07-11-2017, 08:36 PM   #199
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Quote:
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I don't think 'saving up the outrage' is viable. Why should we let 95% of the bullshit pass on the vain hope that the 5% will be the stuff that kills him? I think it will be the sheer weight of it all that will get him, not a sudden left-hook.
Actions matter, not words. Where there is smoke, there is fire, but do you counter the smoke or the fire?

The game here isn't whether he's done bad things or not, that is without question, the victory comes when you can convince his supporters that he is not fit for purpose. Let's not forget, this man was elected the President of the United States legitimately. And much of the outrage over his past came out prior to the election. The very definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing and hope for a different result.
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Old 07-11-2017, 08:46 PM   #200
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I don't think 'saving up the outrage' is viable. Why should we let 95% of the bullshit pass on the vain hope that the 5% will be the stuff that kills him? I think it will be the sheer weight of it all that will get him, not a sudden left-hook.
I mean. You can try to look at the recent election record. That could be an indicative of what (isn't) working and try to focus on what people care about. Or you can keep ignoring the pleb's opinion which you so candidly dismiss all the time. Can't imagine that backfiring in a democracy.
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