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Old 07-14-2017, 05:30 AM   #201
Genghiz Khan
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We will have to agree to disagree, because I gave my final response to Solfege, and this is my final response to you.
Fair enough, at least we got the other's POV down pat.

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An interesting thought though, do you think that intelligence has a genetic component, and if so is it inheritable to a degree? Or is it just rolling the dice at birth as to how smart you are? Is it possible that two doctors giving birth are likely to pass on the doctor gene? I obviously have no idea, but I don't doubt that all things equal, children will tend to follow in their parents footsteps.
I'm quite sure IQ has a genetic component. I don't have the data on me right now, but I remember reading there's a nurture component too. It's more nature than nurture, but more along the lines of 60% nature 40% nurture. Which genes actually code for IQ? I don't think we have an exhaustive list. I also think there are epigenetic factors which cause enhanced IQ which have to do with both nature and nurture equally, but this is pure speculation as I have never read any studies on this.

I think you've hit it on the head with children following their parents' footsteps. It's more nurture than nature, though. I think there might be epigenetic factors a doctor's kid inherits which could predispose her to becoming a doctor, but a majority of it is nurture.

Regardless, we're going off topic.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:02 AM   #202
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And for fucks sake, can we start a new Godin's Law for Trump? I'm sick of people throwing his name around as some sort of trump card. Pun intended. In what world does advocating for forthright and clear communication lead to the presidential umpa lumpa?
Heh, indeed. But in this case I think there is a valid, if admittedly tangential, point, since apparently part of Trump's attractive for voters over shifty Washington politicians is his "telling things as they are."

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You even acknowledge this, but don't offer a solution.
Well, I believe I mentioned approaching the matter gradually, without it having to be necessarily a sneaky cheat straight out of "How To Dip Your Stick The White Knight Way", or saving the more direct approaches for situations where context helps to take the edge out of them. I am sure greater minds can think of more possibilities.

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I'm suggesting that the next time you think someone is cute and wish that they'd touch your butt, that you tell them so in a tactful but clear manner.
There is also the matter of accumulation. Women in certain environments tend to get a lot of these clear offers, sometimes tactful, sometimes not so much. I can't speak for them, but I can see how that much rejection and awkwardness could get old really quick.

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Old 07-14-2017, 11:20 AM   #203
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How many of us have been poisoned by Feminists (the community) against Feminism the movement in this way?

This is a bit difficult to talk about, but I'll try to explain my experience as best as I can.

My mother was (and still is to some extent) a radical feminist. She believed that all feminine behavior is socialized to benefit men's interests and (to create a better and/or equal society) parents should work to counter the socialized gender expressions that children start to 'mimic'.

My childhood was spent ignoring my own impulses to a very unhealthy degree. If I was asked what kind of toy I wanted for a present, I better not pick anything girly. If I saw cute shiny piece of jewelry I would look away before my mother (or anyone else around) could notice and heaven forbid if I would have wanted any girly clothes or girly colors.

Looking back, my mother was quite ingenious at the way she went about her crusade. She never berated me for my actions (beyond making it obvious which choice she would approve), she simply made it a point to thoroughly criticize any feminine woman I saw. They were the stupid, blind, airheads who weren't good enough to even be compared to people like her, her friends and I.

I spent most of me teenage years hating myself for everything I secretly liked. It was definitely like living with original sin, except instead of overly religious parents making you hate yourself for normal sexual impulses I had an overly feminist parent who made me hate myself for normal female sexual expression.

On top of that I lived with the reality that all men are secretly evil. Even if some male classmate of mine was nice and funny I would never have considered befriending them because deep down I 'knew' that they didn't even see me as person; they were just pretending to.

I also 'knew' that in my life I would face discrimination, violence, harassment (possibly rape) etc. and that it hadn't happened yet just meant that all of that was in my future.

As I grew up the list of things I had to ignore about myself, and hate about myself, grew enormous and I was utterly depressed. It wasn't until my mother found out I was planning suicide that we were both able to confront reality, though to different extents.



Even though I absolutely believe that we should work towards equality (of opportunity), I can't view feminism as anything other than a pseudo religious movement that spreads a false narrative to prop up a delusional view of the world.

Not all feminist are radfems, just as not all Christians are west borough baptists, and not all muslims are Wahhabi.
In my eyes all three movements have an equally false view of the world.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:54 PM   #204
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Thank you for your experience. I've experienced roughly the same thing from a few feministic-like groups and I've come to the same conclusion. Radical feminists are annoying as fuck, but I have never felt threatened by them like I have with MRAs and people desperate to get laid (it doesn't help I am like 5 feet tall, 100 pounds... so weak).
Completely off-topic but learn Brazilian Jujitsu. It will help boost your confidence on how to defend yourself as well as a good exercise. And as a bonus, you get to beat down thugs even with your 5-ft size. Just 2-3 lessons a week should be more than enough.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:03 PM   #205
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Completely off-topic but learn Brazilian Jujitsu. It will help boost your confidence on how to defend yourself as well as a good exercise. And as a bonus, you get to beat down thugs even with your 5-ft size. Just 2-3 lessons a week should be more than enough.
Or buy a gun.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:56 PM   #206
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Completely off-topic but learn Brazilian Jujitsu. It will help boost your confidence on how to defend yourself as well as a good exercise. And as a bonus, you get to beat down thugs even with your 5-ft size. Just 2-3 lessons a week should be more than enough.
Just to point out, thats not a 'just' anything. Its an extremely expensive and time consuming suggestion.

A quick google shows that in my local area BJJ classes are all a minimum of an hour and a half long, with some at two hours. Add in travel time, the before and after of the class, etc, you're talking just 2 1/2 hours. So you're suggesting 'just' giving up 7 1/2 hours per week minimum.

Then there's the actual cost, which seems to range from £5-8 per class. Some places offer month long and year long passes. The absolute cheapest it could come out to would be £540 a year. Thats a massive financial commitment. And a price that low is only there if you can afford it upfront, which not many folk could. For most they'd be looking at monthly payments of around £50. Prohibitively expensive.

Not the best advice in the world.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:00 PM   #207
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Completely off-topic but learn Brazilian Jujitsu. It will help boost your confidence on how to defend yourself as well as a good exercise. And as a bonus, you get to beat down thugs even with your 5-ft size. Just 2-3 lessons a week should be more than enough.
I was thinking about doing something like this. I just don't have the time right now. Once this project wraps up though...

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Or buy a gun.
My boyfriend has one, but I would rather not have a concealed carry or one in my car. I have slight anxiety and can get jumpy at times. Not a good combo, in my opinion.

Plus, I live in Seattle and most places ban guns, so its a moot point.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:59 PM   #208
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An interesting thought though, do you think that intelligence has a genetic component, and if so is it inheritable to a degree? Or is it just rolling the dice at birth as to how smart you are? Is it possible that two doctors giving birth are likely to pass on the doctor gene? I obviously have no idea, but I don't doubt that all things equal, children will tend to follow in their parents footsteps.
The evidence suggests that intelligence is very heritable but less so inheritable. Identical twinness accounts for about 80% of IQ variation, but that drops to the 50s for fraternal twins, and lower from there to individual parents and other relatives. Smart or dumb parents can stack the deck genetically, but there is a ton of randomness in gene expression anyway, even before talking about rna or neonatal environment.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:29 PM   #209
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Just to point out, thats not a 'just' anything. Its an extremely expensive and time consuming suggestion.

A quick google shows that in my local area BJJ classes are all a minimum of an hour and a half long, with some at two hours. Add in travel time, the before and after of the class, etc, you're talking just 2 1/2 hours. So you're suggesting 'just' giving up 7 1/2 hours per week minimum.

Then there's the actual cost, which seems to range from £5-8 per class. Some places offer month long and year long passes. The absolute cheapest it could come out to would be £540 a year. Thats a massive financial commitment. And a price that low is only there if you can afford it upfront, which not many folk could. For most they'd be looking at monthly payments of around £50. Prohibitively expensive.

Not the best advice in the world.
What? O.o

Thing that helps build self-confidence (and health) is too expensive and time-consuming, so suggesting it is bad advice...?
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:55 PM   #210
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I think this video can be applied to most things.

Some people are just looking for things that they can take offence to. Nitpicking and misunderstanding on purpose. It's like they like to argue or something. So much effort for so little.

It might just be me but I think there are better things to use the energy for. Promoting STEM and other fields, like computer science for young girls. But that actually takes knowledge and effort, much easier to rant online about the unfairness and how nothing gets done...
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:50 PM   #211
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What? O.o

Thing that helps build self-confidence (and health) is too expensive and time-consuming, so suggesting it is bad advice...?
No, but claiming its quick and easy is.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:13 PM   #212
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I think this video can be applied to most things.

Some people are just looking for things that they can take offence to. Nitpicking and misunderstanding on purpose. It's like they like to argue or something. So much effort for so little.
"You just can't fathom a man being attracted to another man."

I fucking died.

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It might just be me but I think there are better things to use the energy for. Promoting STEM and other fields, like computer science for young girls. But that actually takes knowledge and effort, much easier to rant online about the unfairness and how nothing gets done...
Ahem. Anyways, I get your point. You clinched it.

It's important to note that ranting from behind a computer screen online is much easier than engaging in actual activism. Even then, the people who actually would invest time, effort and resources into activism are hesitant to do so for a multitude of reasons.

A major discouraging factor is the extremists. Some people don't want to be affiliated with the extremists and hence prefer to bemoan the situation for that very reason. Others have more personal reasons for not engaging in activism. The long and short of it is that we should just appreciate those who actually spare the effort to attempt to change things (that is, if you aren't already making your own contribution).

Fuck the extremists though. They need a good bitchslap.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:05 PM   #213
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No, but claiming its quick and easy is.
He didn't say it was...?
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:19 PM   #214
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This isn't a legitimate argument for what you are quoting.

There is not a study that says that women or men are better at certain specific degrees because of biology.

All this study says is that men are more likely to be a genius (and the opposite of that) than women are. However, being a genius is very little in the grand scheme of things.

I would argue that most our top scientists, bankers, politicians are not the 'brightest' in the population, but tend to have risen because of connections, passion and luck. After all, our top politicians right now are not what I would call smart. That's because those you don't agree with you consider stupid without considering why they act a certain way...

This means that someone with passion for a subject will probably be considered smarter at that then someone who has a high IQ.

This is not a good argument at all to say that this is why women are not at high positions.




Thank you for your experience. I've experienced roughly the same thing from a few feministic-like groups and I've come to the same conclusion. Radical feminists are annoying as fuck, but I have never felt threatened by them like I have with MRAs and people desperate to get laid (it doesn't help I am like 5 feet tall, 100 pounds... so weak).
You never were in a top school, that's why you believe in this dragon dung.
Top schools such as Polytechnique, Harvard, MIT, etc are where the elite bankers, quants, data scientists, and best researchers, best engineers come from. And you'll see, there are 30% women in the fields of study that actually matter.
You see that fields of studies that matter very little are typically those where percentage of women is very high. This fact does not change even when education is free of charge (France). If the elite comes from top science school and women don't even want to go in science school for some reason, then it is no wonder there are little women there.
Look at the rankings for olympiads in maths, or physics and it will get even more glaringly obvious that geniuses are mostly men. Look at the fact in all history of maths only a single woman got a fields medal. Look at the rankings in China in science, men are clearly above women. Nobel prizes also.
A genius who is a woman is the same as a genius who is a man, but they are more rare, that's why forcing people to have 50% men 50% women is bad for the progress of mankind.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:36 PM   #215
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You never were in a top school, that's why you believe in this dragon dung.
Top schools such as Polytechnique, Harvard, MIT, etc are where the elite bankers, quants, data scientists, and best researchers, best engineers come from. And you'll see, there are 30% women in the fields of study that actually matter.
Top tier universities only started admitting women around the late 1900's so give it some time. The cultural programming that many little boys and girls undergo is gonna take several generations to fully analyze and if need be, counter.


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~snip~
You're not taking into account that it's been less than a century since women were given access to top tier education and actually allowed to pursue "elite" careers without the expectation that they would eventually give it up to raise a family.

I'm firmly against quotas but reading your post is making me rethink things and hope quotas stick around for the long run if only to fuck the progress of mankind in the ass.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:12 PM   #216
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That's a pathetic excuse which is typical from liberals. Women were not accepted into literature schools either, neither were they in biology or agronomy or chemistry schools, or history or anthropology, but they're typically 50% to 70% there. Chemistry and biology typically require less cognitive skills than maths or physics. Sociology and history are more about how to organize facts according to your ideology than a science, no wonder emotional people blabbering about how unjust everything that doesn't go their way is are more likely to "study" those fields. (Which is the reason most of the "researchers" there are leftists).
For saying this about quotas, you're probably one of those geniuses who supported positive action in the USAs, which provoked a decrease on the academic level of black people. In France, we see exactly the same thing with quotas on poor people being accepted more easily in universities or schools correlated with an increase in inequalities of education between the poor and the rich... When you can get the same thing for less work you work less, that's simple.
Quotas for women would increase inequalities in intelligence between women and men, not lower them, which would make the quotas's consequences even worse. Soon, businesses would see that men and women don't have the same value even though they are from the same university and would discriminate them more, which will ask for more intervention from the government to forbid people from being rational. Then, discrimination will not be visible, but subtle and men would dislike women who get the job or a promotion only in order to meet women quotas. Also, those aware of this would isolate women and despise them. You know what ? This is exactly happening, right now !

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Old 07-15-2017, 03:13 AM   #217
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So you’re thesis is that, on average, men are more capable cognitively – which is why they hold dominion in the STEM fields? Which should then also have consequences, policy-wise.

Please confirm or deny if I represented you accurately there. And if I did rephrase your point accurately, please show me sources for your claim, because that one is pretty bold. And with sources I don’t mean the number of currently held STEM jobs by women in comparison to jobs in other fields, but scientifically backed data. Such a comparison has an enormous amount of factors influencing its outcome after all, it’s hard to isolate cognitive ability in this.

Also, addressing your point about women in other fields. You seem to claim that the high number of women there is because they can unload all their emotional baggage. That’s, again, a strong statement. Sure there can be a correlation (even though that says nothing really about causation). Here’s another possible, correlative factor, then: the level of sexism isn’t an either/or thing; there are degrees to which any given field is steeped in it (or not), and STEM fields are, historically speaking, simply those where it is most entrenched in, which means that it will take longer to become an environment where women can thrive in as well. Sociology, as an academic discipline, however is fairly young, so perhaps there cultural biases had less time to take hold?

But even if those points are correlative factors (and I don’t know if they are, or if they even exist in some cases), they say nothing at all about a woman’s brain. I can make a hundred statements and weakly tie them to that point, but as long as I don’t see actual evidence of any biological imparity in the sexes’ cognitive ability none of them hold any water.

So before there can be any discussion about the validity of policy on such an issue, first the premise you use has to be supported by a good foundation. If your baseline can’t withstand scrutiny, arguing about the rest is pointless.

And please put an extra line between your paragraphs, makes it easier to read.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:33 AM   #218
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So you’re thesis is that, on average, men are more capable cognitively – which is why they hold dominion in the STEM fields? Which should then also have consequences, policy-wise.

Please confirm or deny if I represented you accurately there. And if I did rephrase your point accurately, please show me sources for your claim, because that one is pretty bold. And with sources I don’t mean the number of currently held STEM jobs by women in comparison to jobs in other fields, but scientifically backed data. Such a comparison has an enormous amount of factors influencing its outcome after all, it’s hard to isolate cognitive ability in this. False. I said variability of IQ was higher among men than women, which means that men have a higher number of very low IQ individuals, but also a higher number high IQ people. Average IQ of women is almost the same as that of men, but because of the power law, the very bright people have much higher impact on society and get salaries tenfold that of regular people, which results in great inequalities between men and women. The fact women are less represented in STEM comes from STEM average IQ being much higher than that of the population (women have less very high IQ), free competition means women would be less likely to succeed. Also, I showed a link from an article that sums it up better than I could.

Also, addressing your point about women in other fields. You seem to claim that the high number of women there is because they can unload all their emotional baggage. That’s, again, a strong statement. Sure there can be a correlation (even though that says nothing really about causation). Here’s another possible, correlative factor, then: the level of sexism isn’t an either/or thing; there are degrees to which any given field is steeped in it (or not), and STEM fields are, historically speaking, simply those where it is most entrenched in, which means that it will take longer to become an environment where women can thrive in as well. Sociology, as an academic discipline, however is fairly young, so perhaps there cultural biases had less time to take hold? My main thesis is that sociology and history asks for moderately higher intelligence than average, but not so much, therefore since women are more likely to have only slightly above average IQ, they will thrive better in those fields. The fact women are more emotional seems like common sense, but it's not very convincing is it ?
But even if those points are correlative factors (and I don’t know if they are, or if they even exist in some cases), they say nothing at all about a woman’s brain. I can make a hundred statements and weakly tie them to that point, but as long as I don’t see actual evidence of any biological imparity in the sexes’ cognitive ability none of them hold any water. If it is merely a correlation and women were truly equals to men in all aspects, then what would be the point of positive action ? Should we force women to be culturally identical to men ? And women are superior to men in plenty of aspects too, men and women are not identical.

So before there can be any discussion about the validity of policy on such an issue, first the premise you use has to be supported by a good foundation. If your baseline can’t withstand scrutiny, arguing about the rest is pointless. So you socialists don't have to prove there is sexism to put forth "anti-sexism laws", but we have to prove it's only natural in order for you not to put them in place ? Is that some kind of joke ?

And please put an extra line between your paragraphs, makes it easier to read.
It is very easy to factor cognitive skills in fact, when you don't try to look at things such as money or culture or whatever.
I did not attempt at explaining why women's IQ would have lower standard deviation than men's, I merely see that it is lower. That means ATM parity would be impossible unless you decide that taking in a woman for the job despite a man being better at it than her because there is a quota is fine. This is the socialist's wet-dream, reducing inequalities between the smarts and the idiots.
http://www.sciencevsfeminism.com/the...ence/#fn33-967
This is the article in question, it has plenty of sources, and you should read the comments because they are useful and can help to criticize the article.

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Old 07-15-2017, 07:01 AM   #219
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Then, discrimination will not be visible, but subtle and men would dislike women who get the job or a promotion only in order to meet women quotas. Also, those aware of this would isolate women and despise them. You know what ? This is exactly happening, right now !
FWFWFWFW you'll never guess what happened next !

What an embarrassing way to argue.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:31 PM   #220
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Did he just get banned, because admin disagrees with his opinion? Free speech is now limited to well-known users?

edit: Turns out I do have opinions, after all. This is what I fear, you see? That a censor will come, just because he doesn't like me, or something and poof, I am banned, because I said something that local censor (Xiph) doesn't like. That's what my parents fought against in 1993 (communism).

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