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Old 10-09-2016, 11:11 PM   #4501
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Honestly not a great night for Hillary. Trump was fucking insane, delving headfirst into conspiracy theories and threatening to put Hillary Clinton in jail. It's outrageous.

But nonetheless she was on the defensive for most of the night, and that's not a great look for her. She missed a lot of potential slam dunks.

I was looking forwards to this debate like I was going to see Saddam's execution. I was more than a bit disappointed.

Still, Trump stemming the bleeding isn't the worst thing in the world for Hillary. At least this way she basically guarantees that she's going to be facing Trump on the top of the ticket, instead of Mr. Generic Republican with none of Trump's negatives.

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Old 10-09-2016, 11:24 PM   #4502
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Honestly not a great night for Hillary. Trump was fucking insane, delving headfirst into conspiracy theories and treating to put Hillary Clinton in jail. It's outrageous.

But nonetheless she was on the defensive for most of the night, and that's not a great look for her. She missed a lot of potential slam dunks.
I'm inclined to agree. Trump's tactic tonight was to just spew as much shit as possible and watch Hillary scramble to correct him. Didn't matter that he made up half of it and was wrong about the rest - as long as she was focused on responding to him rather than going after him or stating her own positions, he was golden. And he managed to do that reasonably well, plus he definitely ended on a high note with that last question. It seemed like Hillary was expecting Trump to have nothing, so she threw out a backhanded compliment, but he came out looking better than her by actually naming personal quality that he admired.

I'm not sure how this will end up affecting the polls though. While Trump looked good, he actually said very little of substance and rarely ever answered the question, and post-debate analysis will certainly cover that. He certainly didn't lose any of his base, at least, but I have a feeling Hillary will pick up some more of the undecided vote from those who were actually paying attention to the answers rather than the candidates.
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:52 PM   #4503
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Trump looked deranged and dangerous for the middle of the debate, doped in the first part and just not giving a fuck in the last, and yet Hillary couldn't take advantage of it. Really, if it weren't for the moderators not buying his bullshit I would call this a tie.
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:57 PM   #4504
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The dibate was pretty hilarious on either side.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:36 AM   #4505
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The dibate was pretty hilarious on either side.
It looked like something that belonged on Jerry Springer.

Hilarious isn't the word I'd use.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:54 AM   #4506
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I think I might skip the third debate. The fact vacuum Trump operates in prevents any real conversation from happening. It's just a waste of time at this point.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:55 AM   #4507
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Yeah, the debate tomorrow is likely going to be nuts. Trump's campaign has to know that their best (and quite possibly only) hope of turning things around is to knock this debate out of the park. Meanwhile, Hillary is no doubt aware that if she dominates the debate it could pretty much deliver the coup de grace to Trump's campaign.
Well, looks like I called it as far as Trump going all out. I was a little surprised Hillary didn't go on the offensive, though.
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Old 10-10-2016, 01:19 AM   #4508
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It's too bad Hillary Clinton didn't fix all of our problems when she was a Senator, seeing as how she had dictatorial power at the time, according to Trump.

lol.

I think he did better this time around, in that he seemed to be able to string together a mostly coherent sentence, even if his thoughts were all over the place. He was angry for most of it, and I think that showed.

For Hillary, she was calm and collected, but largely on the defensive to the avalanche of BS he was slinging at her. I think she had good moments when she was talking about taxes and the benefits and costs of Obamacare.

The TL;DR of it all is the same as last time, though. Peoples' positions are hardened, this won't change anyone either way. If you liked Hillary or think Trump's a disaster, you're not voting for him. And if you think Hillary's a felon and think Trump's awesome, you're not voting for her. So it's just self-flagellation to have these things.
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Old 10-10-2016, 01:32 AM   #4509
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I feel Hillary really missed a few opportunities Trump gave her to really make him look (even more) incompetent. Stuff like "Why do we give them forewarning, why cant we do it sneakily" would have been the perfect time to say "We did, we got Bin Ladin by those tactics in part by my urging and we'd do the same if I was elected." It felt like she was trying to play a bit too safe in my eyes.
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Old 10-10-2016, 01:36 AM   #4510
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The TL;DR of it all is the same as last time, though. Peoples' positions are hardened, this won't change anyone either way. If you liked Hillary or think Trump's a disaster, you're not voting for him. And if you think Hillary's a felon and think Trump's awesome, you're not voting for her. So it's just self-flagellation to have these things.
Believe it or not, there still are a few people out there who haven't made up their minds yet. People who were thinking of just not voting at all because that didn't particularly like either option, Berniebros looking for an alternative, etc. Trump made a pretty hard play for the Berniebros tonight, but I think that wasn't the best move. The only Bernie supporters he could hope to pick up are the "Never Hillary, burn it all down" crowd, who already moved over to his camp as soon as Bernie lost the primary. Anyone who actually cares about the issues would have a tough time voting Trump given his polar opppsite stances on just about everything.

The problem is that Trump lives in an echo chamber. He hears his base cheering for him every time he spews stupid shit, so he continues to spew. He hears that some Bernie supporters are in his camp now, so he tries to make a play for more of them without recognizing why they're there. In the mean time, he's losing moderate Republicans and Independents - the voters that he should be courting - in droves.
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:05 AM   #4511
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Honestly?

I don't think Hillary wanted to do too much damage tonight. The Clinton campaign right now is geared exclusively to fighting Donald Trump. With just under a month to go, I'm sure they want to avoid having to deal with the chaos of doing so much damage to Trump that even he quits.

So yes, Hillary didn't land any killing blows. But I highly doubt Trump attracted any swing voters by being Trump.
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:09 AM   #4512
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Believe it or not, there still are a few people out there who haven't made up their minds yet. People who were thinking of just not voting at all because that didn't particularly like either option, Berniebros looking for an alternative, etc. Trump made a pretty hard play for the Berniebros tonight, but I think that wasn't the best move. The only Bernie supporters he could hope to pick up are the "Never Hillary, burn it all down" crowd, who already moved over to his camp as soon as Bernie lost the primary. Anyone who actually cares about the issues would have a tough time voting Trump given his polar opppsite stances on just about everything.
If you're an undecided at this point, it's your indecision that's your hardened position. If you haven't been convinced one way or the other by now, after all we've seen and heard from all concerned, I don't see why anything that happened last night would have convinced you.
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:46 AM   #4513
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The biggest disappointment for me tonight is when Trump was ranting about how we always announce our military attacks and never do sneak attacks. Hillary needed to whisper into the mic like Trump and state,

"Osama Bin Laden sucker."
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Old 10-10-2016, 05:28 AM   #4514
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Honestly?

I don't think Hillary wanted to do too much damage tonight. The Clinton campaign right now is geared exclusively to fighting Donald Trump. With just under a month to go, I'm sure they want to avoid having to deal with the chaos of doing so much damage to Trump that even he quits.

So yes, Hillary didn't land any killing blows. But I highly doubt Trump attracted any swing voters by being Trump.
Yeah, it seems like her main strategy was not so much to damage Trump as it was to avoid taking too many risks while letting sit back and let him destroy himself with his own Trump-ness.

I personally would've pushed a bit harder, but I can understand the logic behind Hillary not taking too many risks in the debate when things are going so well for her right now. After all, Hillary's had some problems with unforced errors in the past, and another one right now could shore up Trump's campaign.
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Old 10-10-2016, 06:31 AM   #4515
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That "debate" was probably the ugliest thing I've seen in politics. So many astonishingly stupid things were said by Trump, it's hard to keep track of them all.

So we learned that he wishes to jail his political opponents, that he's not at all contrite about the hot mic moment ("They're just words"), that Pence is a marriage of convenience, that he's abandoned any real hope of trying to reach beyond his narrow base, and that he indeed hasn't paid federal taxes in years, except maybe he has, except maybe he hasn't and it's all Clinton's fault because as Senator should have waved her magic wand and fixed the tax code (which is totally within an individual Senator's power to do) so people like him wouldn't avoid paying taxes like he did. (Cue the easiest tee-ball followup of the evening.) Oh, and George Soros.

I guess we all learned that there's a sewer beneath that gutter, that American politics can go so much lower. And it will in the month ahead.
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Old 10-10-2016, 10:49 AM   #4516
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I feel Hillary really missed a few opportunities Trump gave her to really make him look (even more) incompetent. Stuff like "Why do we give them forewarning, why cant we do it sneakily" would have been the perfect time to say "We did, we got Bin Ladin by those tactics in part by my urging and we'd do the same if I was elected." It felt like she was trying to play a bit too safe in my eyes.
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The biggest disappointment for me tonight is when Trump was ranting about how we always announce our military attacks and never do sneak attacks. Hillary needed to whisper into the mic like Trump and state,

"Osama Bin Laden sucker."
I didn't really have a problem with Hillary not attacking his specific points. The problem is that Trump is completely incompetent and crazy. He's attacking strawmen and soundbites. For instance, I just can't take someone accusing our military of making the basic mistake of not realizing we should keep some military actions secret. It's implying that the entire command structure of our military is completely inept. His complaints show that he is a completely uninformed and vapid person.

Sure she, could have answered his accusations more specifically. But the problem with arguing with a crazy person is you start to seem crazy, and the only people who are undecided about the issue are probably crazy too. As KHAAAAAAAAAAN!! said Trump prevents serious conversation from happening. Directly answering his specific accusations might be a waste of time.
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Old 10-10-2016, 11:54 AM   #4517
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What's that, Speaker Ryan? You're going to focus on holding the House?

My 10 dollar bet is panning out.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:10 PM   #4518
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I never thought I'd see this happen.

(Not sure if paywalled, but Foreign Policy just issued their first-ever endorsement of a candidate.)

Edited to add an excerpt from the article:

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...Indeed, we are not the first to say it, but Trump is the worst major-party candidate this republic has ever produced.

Fortunately, not only is Trump opposed by a worthy candidate, but his opponent is, on foreign-policy and national security issues — all of the areas we cover here at FP — one of the best qualified candidates this country has produced since World War II. As first lady, New York senator, and secretary of state, Hillary Clinton regularly distinguished herself by her intelligence, dogged work ethic, ability to work across the political aisle, and leadership on difficult issues. She has devoted her entire life to public service and has been a powerful and effective advocate for women, children, and those in need at home and abroad. Whether you agree with all the policy stances of her campaign or not, impartial eyes will conclude that her proposals on climate change, combating terrorism, and human rights are thoughtful and comprehensive — and ultimately worthy of consideration.

Hillary Clinton is a quality candidate who is unquestionably well-prepared to lead this country. What is more, we do not think it is a small thing that by her election she will be righting a deep wrong that has compromised U.S. democracy since its inception: the exclusion of women from its highest offices. Were she to be elected as this country’s first woman president, not only would it be historic and send an important signal about both inclusiveness and Americans’ commitment to electing candidates who have distinguished themselves on their merits, but she would enter office having already put down one great threat to the United States of America — the grotesque and deeply disturbing prospect of a Donald Trump presidency.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:23 PM   #4519
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I never thought I'd see this happen.

(Not sure if paywalled, but Foreign Policy just issued their first-ever endorsement of a candidate.)
Yea, it's behind a paywall.

Not at all shocking that people who have a deep understanding of foreign relations wouldn't want Trump in the White House, but it is a shocker that FP came out for HRC officially.

It says more about Trump than it does about her that outlets like FP, The Atlantic, tons of conservative papers, etc., are making endorsements.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:36 PM   #4520
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What's that, Speaker Ryan? You're going to focus on holding the House?

My 10 dollar bet is panning out.
I get not wanting to campaign with Trump - although it turns out my predictions were faulty with regards to Pence, after the better-than-expected performance by Trump he's back on the road with him including parroting a bunch of the Bill Clinton lines (to show he's got absolutely no spine whatsoever).

But from every poll I've seen the House isn't in play for Hillary to take back a majority. Hell, depending on the day the Senate's not really in play, especially considering how dicey some of the numbers look in Nevada, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania. Is Ryan really that worried, or is this just the convenient excuse for optics?
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