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Old 11-27-2016, 04:20 PM   #5681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazgus View Post
I've definitely seen what the first link talks about around Berkeley. A friend of mine actually posted that she was "so glad I'll spend the next 4 years in Berkeley's bubble, because if I actually had to listen to someone justify their Trump vote I would scream ... " a few days after the election. There's a refusal to even consider the other side's points in a lot of my peers, and they don't seem to care that a lack of discussion with those who disagree is why so many of us were shocked by Trump's win.
I agree with you and I'm channeling my inner @Joe's Nemesis here, but I think this is definitely something that can be attributed to both sides. This is the result of partisan politics I guess, both sides are completely convinced their viewpoint is the right one, and that anyone who says differently is wrong.

The reality of the situation is, of course, somewhat more muddied. The establishment is now coming to terms with just how must support they have lost from the average citizen. Of course, when half of your population is struggling to survive, as we see in many western countries these days, disenfranchisement is inevitable.

Neither party had a plan to deal with these problems (except perhaps Sander's), and what ended up happening was most people voting, not necessarily for Trump, but against the status quo. And while I agree that the status quo isn't great for most people, we're changing in the wrong damn direction which is going to end up with an even worse status quo.
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:48 PM   #5682
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Apparently the loss of the popular vote is still stinging, because the president-elect is now claiming millions of votes were cast illegally for Clinton, despite no evidence of this.

Either he's doing this to cover up something huge down the pipe that we're not seeing yet, or he is so thin-skinned that the popular vote and Stein's recount pushed him over the edge. Forget the fact that he's getting his news from Alex Jones, InfoWars and Republican SuperPACs who have refused to reveal any sources, at this point anyone can just say, "You know, Mr. President-Elect, that's a sound point, we should open up the electoral results for complete recounts across the entire United States, starting in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, with North Carolina and Florida right behind it. And hell, let's bring in the top people from the CIA to investigate those irregularities in the systems too, all the BEST people."

I literally do not know what he's doing, or why someone hasn't taken away his Twitter account yet. To me, this seems so stupid - can anyone provide insight here?
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:55 PM   #5683
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My best guess is he's kicking up a fuss for one of two possible reasons. The first is a kind of weird reverse-psychology ploy, where he's counting on the Democrats seething hatred of him to cause them to go "Oh, Trump is calling for it now? Fuck, well we can't agree with him on anything, so let's call all this off.".

The second is that he's yet again distracting the media from something stupid and/or shady he's getting up to, and if so, it's working brilliantly.
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:57 PM   #5684
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There's a pretty interesting article about a lot of the conflicts of interest that Trump has.
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:20 PM   #5685
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Originally Posted by Silens Cursor View Post
Apparently the loss of the popular vote is still stinging, because the president-elect is now claiming millions of votes were cast illegally for Clinton, despite no evidence of this.

Either he's doing this to cover up something huge down the pipe that we're not seeing yet, or he is so thin-skinned that the popular vote and Stein's recount pushed him over the edge. Forget the fact that he's getting his news from Alex Jones, InfoWars and Republican SuperPACs who have refused to reveal any sources, at this point anyone can just say, "You know, Mr. President-Elect, that's a sound point, we should open up the electoral results for complete recounts across the entire United States, starting in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, with North Carolina and Florida right behind it. And hell, let's bring in the top people from the CIA to investigate those irregularities in the systems too, all the BEST people."

I literally do not know what he's doing, or why someone hasn't taken away his Twitter account yet. To me, this seems so stupid - can anyone provide insight here?
It's safe to assume that what trump does he does deliberately. By jumping into the recount story with an inflammatory tweet, he extends the news cycle for a few more days on a story he likes: Recounts that won't go anywhere.
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:28 PM   #5686
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I literally do not know what he's doing, or why someone hasn't taken away his Twitter account yet. To me, this seems so stupid - can anyone provide insight here?
This is no different from any of the other times Trump has cherry-picked and trumpeted rumors to delegitimize opposition.

Haven't you heard? 3 million illegal immigrants voted this season, most in California where Clinton agents catalogued and shoehorned people to the polls with promises of amnesty and various sweetmeats.

There is no insight. Trump does what he always does when placed on the defensive, when his winnings are questioned: he lashes out. After a long career and a close mentorship with Roy Cohn who taught him these bulldog tactics, this is instinctual by now. As he is fresh from his victory, no one has the nerve and the position to stop him.

@atlas_hugged Doubt he keeps the data on hand, as Gio knows from experience, to feel sure enough that the recounts won't go anywhere, though I'm sure Priebus or someone like has told him.

Suppose this is a premeditated move to distract from his transition. He continues to choose pandering to his base, riling up their biases while delegitimizing Clinton support and, by extension, enflaming urban anti-Trump sentiment. This runs counter to his pledge to unify and, in the long run, to heal the divides. These habits of his will make the coming transfer of power all the more painful. If he wanted to appear more statesmanlike, as everyone hopes he would, he'd stop swimming in the muck and publicly support our institutional processes to arbitrate in his favor.

But he simply can't help himself.

Trump has said that he reads the NYTimes daily, despite their painful coverage of him, and that he wishes they'd had a better relationship.

Quote:
“I think I’ve been treated very rough,” Mr. Trump said, as he spent the first several minutes of the session criticizing The Times’s coverage. “I’ve been treated extremely unfairly, in a sense, in a true sense.”

“I will say The Times is about the roughest of all,” Mr. Trump said. Then, referring to his relationship with the paper, he added: “I would like to turn it around. I think it would make the job I am doing much easier.”

...


“To me,” Mr. Trump said at one point, “it would be a great achievement if I could come back here in a year or two, and have a lot of folks here say, ‘You’ve done a great job.’”

...

[During] the lunch, he made a confession: He remains a regular reader.

“I do read it — unfortunately,” the president-elect said. “I’d live about 20 years longer if I didn’t.”
Let's dispense with this fiction that President-elect Trump knows exactly what he's doing. He doesn't. Even if he's skilled at maneuvering via instinct, which is the essence of many successful businesspeople who aren't technical or extremely smart.

Last edited by Solfege; 11-27-2016 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:14 PM   #5687
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I think Trump knows exactly what he's doing. Not in any sort of cold, calculating level; I'm pretty sure he operates purely from his gut and thinks such things as concrete plans are for people who are bad at life. I just think he "gets" the media and the clusterfuck modern American politics has become on an instinctual level, and uses that to his advantage.

I'm never going to say Trump is a smart man, because he isn't, but he's really good at what he's doing, and pretending like he's some retard that entirely lucked his way into power is all kinds of foolish.

Is it theoretically possible? Sure. It's rather unlikely though.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:29 PM   #5688
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I should like to see him simultaneously win the media popularity contest while putzing them about.

Other than that point, we're pretty much on the same page but for semantics. A complete retard wouldn't have had the foresight to do the market research that he did in preparation for his run.

It just so happens that I choose to label men who succeed purely on those aforementioned merits as "lucky idiots." Parts disappointing, exasperating, and yes, even admiring. I reiterate: luck and circumstance plays a much greater role in all kinds of success than people credit it for.

If you can understand that, then all you need is dogged persistence and preparedness for that opportunity. Trump's been talking up a run for 30 years; this year was the perfect storm for him, and Clinton's race to lose.


The prospect of a scheming Trump works if he intends to play different personas over the media. Urbanites are supposed never to take his Twitter seriously, while his base will never take the NYTimes seriously. In this scenario, Trump never planned to heal the divide even as he tries to unify the country under two separate headlines.

My point is, Trump doesn't "scheme" in a concrete way. And if he's operating from his gut, then he doesn't need to "know" anything. Everything is negotiable, even the facts he chooses to take to the table. Like Invictus said earlier (and I'm going to be rereading and digesting those thoughts for a while), he positions and readjusts until he feels he has reached the best he can, but he does it without forethought for the field he is playing in and racks up collateral damage along the way.

The fact that he positions himself to survive that collateral damage (or is shielded by others) poses no solace for all the people who's had to suffer it in his stead.

Fucking lucky idiots.

Last edited by Solfege; 11-27-2016 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:50 PM   #5689
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He's just doing it so that people react and say he has no evidence, so that if/when any recount turns up any disparities, he can turn around and say they have no evidence, thus drawing the false equivalency and disarming the accusations.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:01 PM   #5690
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@Darth_Revan Trump loves his false equivalencies, but to draw briefly into the question we've bounced a few pages, does he do that habitually as reflex or as a deliberate manipulation, do you think?

Alternatively, say we're speculating pointlessly.

Last edited by Solfege; 11-27-2016 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:07 PM   #5691
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@Darth_Revan Trump loves his false equivalencies, but to draw briefly into the question we've bounced a few pages, does he do that habitually as reflex or as a deliberate manipulation, do you think?
I think it's a combination of both. He retweets things on reflex that he thinks make him look good, but he's also a savvy manipulator of the press.
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:31 AM   #5692
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I have to ask why are voter ID laws so weird in USA? Why don't some places like California and New York require Photo ID or any ID at all? What's your problem with requiring photo ID? Getting a photo ID here in Finland costs only around 50 euro and I doubt that it's much more expensive in USA. So why is it such a problem to have stricter ID laws?
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:09 AM   #5693
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A law requiring people to carry ID cards is considered an authoritarian measure and is associated with regimes like the USSR. The image of police walking up to people and demanding to see their papers evokes feelings of a dystopian society and is a staple trope in TV and movies to illustrate that the characters live in an oppressive state.
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:19 AM   #5694
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I have to ask why are voter ID laws so weird in USA?
Democrats usually view voting laws as an attempt to suppress certain group's votes. Republicans usually claim they are fighting voting fraud, which seems to be almost non-existent. Here' some more reading on it: https://www.propublica.org/article/e...-voter-id-laws.

Also poll taxes have been ruled unconstitutional, you can't require people pay any money to vote. So that 50 euro fee to get an id would be problematic. Plus access can be problematic too, it can be really inconvenient to get required documentation or even get to your voting place.
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:33 AM   #5695
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I have to ask why are voter ID laws so weird in USA? Why don't some places like California and New York require Photo ID or any ID at all? What's your problem with requiring photo ID? Getting a photo ID here in Finland costs only around 50 euro and I doubt that it's much more expensive in USA. So why is it such a problem to have stricter ID laws?
Democrats view voter ID laws as a way to suppress minority votes, who would be the most likely groups to not obtain voter IDs.

Republicans view voter ID laws as a way to prevent voter fraud.

Both sides have merit. I would be fine with voter id laws if they came with full federal funding to expand the network of DMVs and such required to distribute voter IDs. Right now it can be ridiculously hard to get a voter ID if you live in a rural area, or have a job you can't afford to take time off for.
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Old 11-28-2016, 10:47 AM   #5696
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Both sides have merit.
I have to disagree. Actual voter fraud is negligible and it's pretty much open knowledge that these laws are (somewhat successful) attempts by the GOP to suppress Democratic votes.

This actually brings me to a related question. If credible evidence proving the Russians interfered in the election pops up, then what does that mean for Trump and the presidency?
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:04 AM   #5697
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Also poll taxes have been ruled unconstitutional, you can't require people pay any money to vote. So that 50 euro fee to get an id would be problematic. Plus access can be problematic too, it can be really inconvenient to get required documentation or even get to your voting place.

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Democrats view voter ID laws as a way to suppress minority votes, who would be the most likely groups to not obtain voter IDs.

Republicans view voter ID laws as a way to prevent voter fraud.

Both sides have merit. I would be fine with voter id laws if they came with full federal funding to expand the network of DMVs and such required to distribute voter IDs. Right now it can be ridiculously hard to get a voter ID if you live in a rural area, or have a job you can't afford to take time off for.
I don't know of a state that doesn't have a provision for a form of Identification that is free for those that can't afford it.

It's not just a driver's license either. Any form of state or federal ID will pass muster. There are ways of obtaining ID where you don't have to stand in line for hours as well. Most places even have kiosks and online services for renewing purposes, and services for those that are elderly or handicapped, etc. They just have to get up off their asses and look instead of just whining about how hard it is.

I can't even see how a person can live these days without something identifying them in some way. I'm not saying it's impossible or that there are weirdos out there that manage it somehow.

In order to get a job a person has to provide ID for their federal I-5 form. Bank accounts. Check cashing. Credit card usage sometimes. Dozens of different everyday tasks. If you get approached by police for breaking the law even in a minor way, you have to have ID; if not, then they can detain you until you can prove that you're you.

The biggest argument I've seen is that it's somehow racist. That's the one that's always thrown around. I see it as more racist to assume that POC are inherently incapable of performing the same tasks as everyone else that normally participates in society.

I've got no problem with having a law requiring it for voting.
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:11 AM   #5698
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This actually brings me to a related question. If credible evidence proving the Russians interfered in the election pops up, then what does that mean for Trump and the presidency?
I don't know how much it would change things even though I would like a full congressional investigation. I think there's already clear links between Russia and the DNC leaks, so there isn't much of a question in my mind. But I don't think Trump would pay any attention to that evidence, and his supporters seem more interested in what was in the emails.
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:30 AM   #5699
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I can't even see how a person can live these days without something identifying them in some way. I'm not saying it's impossible or that there are weirdos out there that manage it somehow.

In order to get a job a person has to provide ID for their federal I-5 form. Bank accounts. Check cashing. Credit card usage sometimes. Dozens of different everyday tasks. If you get approached by police for breaking the law even in a minor way, you have to have ID; if not, then they can detain you until you can prove that you're you.
Pretty much this. I need to use my ID all the time for normal day-to-day stuff, so the idea of needing to show it before I vote just doesn't seem like some horrible imposition of government authority. Heck, you can't even get your federal voter registration without providing some form of ID.
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:30 AM   #5700
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I don't know of a state that doesn't have a provision for a form of Identification that is free for those that can't afford it.

It's not just a driver's license either. Any form of state or federal ID will pass muster. There are ways of obtaining ID where you don't have to stand in line for hours as well. Most places even have kiosks and online services for renewing purposes, and services for those that are elderly or handicapped, etc. They just have to get up off their asses and look instead of just whining about how hard it is.

I can't even see how a person can live these days without something identifying them in some way. I'm not saying it's impossible or that there are weirdos out there that manage it somehow.

In order to get a job a person has to provide ID for their federal I-5 form. Bank accounts. Check cashing. Credit card usage sometimes. Dozens of different everyday tasks. If you get approached by police for breaking the law even in a minor way, you have to have ID; if not, then they can detain you until you can prove that you're you.

The biggest argument I've seen is that it's somehow racist. That's the one that's always thrown around. I see it as more racist to assume that POC are inherently incapable of performing the same tasks as everyone else that normally participates in society.

I've got no problem with having a law requiring it for voting.
The problem is that these laws disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of poor voters. It's not that they are designed to verify a person's identity, its that they are desinged to reduced certain group's turnout. It's a little unfair to assume that everyone who can't vote because of a voter id law is inept.

http://www.brennancenter.org/publica...identification
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/ar...y-about-fraud/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...w-court-rules/
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