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Old 02-04-2017, 01:35 AM   #41
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It would take collusion[and acting against self interest] on an illuminati conspiracy scale for this to be possible. It is simply more likely that 'like' and 'like' are not being compared to provide these statistics.
You reduce a messy, chaotic, multivariate world to an artificial linearity. If I have two linen shirts to choose from, one at $20 and one at $150, I would buy the $150 shirt for its quality of material, construction, and fit; not to mention its longevity and comfort (shorter fibers pill more frequently and scratch the skin). If I were aware that the company making the $150 shirt were savvy enough to cultivate a sizable and loyal customer base so as to afford carrying inventory, I might even hunt the secondary markets for extra stock well worth the $50 price tag. Such is the value I find, that which most others will not.

After all, to the modern sedentary person, his senses dulled and values diminished, there is no difference between a $20 and a $150 shirt, except one is an exorbitant waste of money.

And yet I could envision an alternate world where we are acculturated to value the $150 shirt as a society (thereby driving down its cost of production to deliver a $75 shirt, or it would except that instead of demand being the bottleneck, we now have the supply of raw hemp as our bottleneck, or one or two other factors I could think of) and reject those $20 shirts destined to the landfill in a season or two.

Markets are rarely as transparent or as efficient as you make them out to be. Economic theories are most useful as laboratory testing grounds for particular insights; least as faithful descriptions of reality. Particularly as humans are not, on the whole, rational actors. Nor is human labor a commodity; or should I say, not always commoditized, depending on the industry and the division of labor.

Others have previously touched on some of the societal biases and perceptual structures that may come into play, that abrogate your fiction of transparency. There are undoubtedly areas in which the woman does not do 100% of what a man does, and vice versa. But any number of local maxima/minima, in no small part due to various network effects, potentially exist to disconnect an ideal "market equilibrium" from "what a company 'has' to pay" and "what a particular worker is wiling to receive at a limited point in time with his/her circumstances."

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Old 02-04-2017, 03:25 AM   #42
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Pretending that discrimination doesn't go both ways is laughable. Take a walk through the closest university to you, and compare the availability of financial aid to each gender at each faculty.

If you can find a single one that favours men over women I would be surprised. This is particularly laughable as women overwhelmingly outnumber men on campus around the western world and perform better in high school and university.

I have the sneaking suspicion that the coming decades will see a major reversal in gender inequality issues, at least in a professional sense.
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Old 02-04-2017, 10:52 AM   #43
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Absolutely this.

While I'd probably fall on the cinema argument when it comes to women's sports (they should get paid what they're worth), I'll concede that to grow the sport, money needs to be injected into it. Like an investment. Given time, I can't see how women's sports wouldn't be just as popular, thereby earning equality in pay with their male counterparts.

But regarding the tennis example, if you want that money, you sure as fuck should work as hard as Nadal (for example, who had like four five-setters in the tournament. In Australian summer.)

Didn't Djokovic pipe up regarding this at one point and get absolutely blasted for it? Could be misremembering.
Surely you're joking, right? There are numerous reasons male athletes are objectively better than female ones, and most of them are biological but eminently realizable if you make a metric based analysis of any two sports that are directly comparable. For instance, weight lifting is a sport that men and women can both compete it, and have the same fundamental structures that contribute to the 'athleticism' of the event. There are no separate rules for men vs women lifting, but the crowd is drawn by the big numbers that are being lift, something men empirically do better. Other examples might include running. There are professional women's sports teams that routinely lose to high school varsity teams, which just goes to show you how large the "competitive advantage" between the two genders.

No amount of investing in women's sports is going to raise those women's ability to out-compete men given the same advantages. If the crowd isn't drawn to the sport because of the gender of the participants, but because of the skill, expertise and ability of the players, then men's sports will probably always be more interesting. That doesn't mean you can't spend money anyway on women's sports, but trying to say that "men's soccer" and "women's soccer" are intrinsically the same is intellectually disingenuous.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:20 AM   #44
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I wasn't aware that financial aid policy was considered on a gendered basis (barring outside scholarships). My impression was that admissions officers design the entry pool in a feat of social engineering and admit according to those quotas; need-blind schools have their financial aid officers consider aid afterwards on a needs-basis. Admissions and financial aid should be separate stages. I am not sure how walking through a university would give me an idea of financial aid... if asking to identify gender disparity on sight, not only would my mind introduce biases to identify and remember some people more than others, but that is also assuming, prematurely, that financial aid is the primary factor behind what I see...

To return to admissions quotas, it is known that applying as an Asian male is particularly tough and competitive. But worse than that, and worst of all, is to apply as an Asian female; for exactly the reasons you supplied. She performs better in high school and therefore must compete with other similarly or better qualified female Asians to attain a place in that quota.

So that is from the individual perspective.

But if we look to the overall 3:2 female/male ratio that is common on many campuses today, this is reportedly because of the much larger pool of female applicants than of male applicants. Supply and demand, to quote others previously. If Vassar were to accept equal proportions of applicants from each gender pool, women would outnumber men by more than 2:1.

Now the question becomes, what discriminatory structures lie within the system to create such imbalanced demand curves? There is no doubt in my mind that just as men possess some preferential biases in life, so do women. Men's rights, to me, are not necessarily at odds with women's rights.

But the 3:2 gender gap at unis is not an example of financial aid discrimination (except insofar as individual financial aid officers are swayed by individual appeals). In fact, 60:40, or 57:43, is a reflection of admissions policies with a couple percentage points biased in favor of men, to "rebalance" the unequal demand for college seats.

Whether or not male students retain those seats and graduate at the rates female students do is a separate question.

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Old 02-04-2017, 11:23 AM   #45
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He's talking about the significant number of "female only" scholarships privately available. If there were many, significant scholarships for "men only" they would be sued out of existence as being discriminatory.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:35 AM   #46
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I can accept that, though it wasn't clear from the way he phrased it, since he anchored it with a visual campus presence.
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Old 02-04-2017, 12:01 PM   #47
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I'm in the UK, not the US. I have no idea how we handle scholarships, so I really don't know for you guys. I did apply for one over here (successfully)... But apparently you had to apply through each university, not a single blanket application for a person. As I went to my second choice, I didn't get the money.


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He's talking about the significant number of "female only" scholarships privately available. If there were many, significant scholarships for "men only" they would be sued out of existence as being discriminatory.
Milo Yiannopoulos (Breitbart editor) stated a while ago that he was thinking of making a CisHet White Male STEM grant, so that either it gets sued for being discriminatory (setting precedent for any others based on something similar), or it doesn't, in which case it would show the corruption in the system.

Now, my source for finding out about this originally was /pol/, so I took it with a grain of salt. Further digging made it look like it might not be a CHWM STEM grant, but I basically forgot about it.

There were some issues...

It was true. The site itself has been up and running for over a year, but applications can now be made.

It's 'only' $2,500, but that can be a massive deal at university.
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Old 02-04-2017, 12:15 PM   #48
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In physics, women are woefully underrepresented and continue to be to this day.

Gender-specific scholarships and fellowships seek to right this imbalance, as do gender-preferences in faculty hiring, but they are a band-aid for a gushing wound. In my field of specialty (plasma physics), women receive less than 5%* of the American Physical Society Fellowships in any given year, a rate that's below their membership rate by several percent. The highest award in the field, the James Clerk Maxwell Prize, was granted to a woman last year for the first time in 42 years. Women in the field aren't being recognized for top-tier achievement, either because they are inherently inferior (which the data don't support; if anything, the opposite is indicated) or because they aren't the opportunities their male colleauges are given.

Rather, what the data show is that in physics women have to work twice as hard to get half the recognition as their male counterparts. It's just a fact. And their ability to draw the top salaries is similarly limited. From all the data I've seen (and I've been on national panels to collect these data and propose policies acting on them, so I've seen quite a bit of it), the gender wage gap is a very real thing in the hard sciences.

* Edit: looked up the number.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:06 PM   #49
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How's the pay situation at the National Labs, @Perspicacity?
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:37 PM   #50
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How's the pay situation at the National Labs, @Perspicacity?
With respect to gender disparity, at my employer it arises mostly in the lack of promotion opportunities in the ranks for scientists. While it's hard for anyone to get promoted irrespective of gender (to control labor costs, the Lab's parent company implemented a ladder system for staff with hard salary bands and very infrequent promotions--I'm of order ten years in my job without even a discussion of promotion, e.g.), it's particularly so for women, which leads to their receiving lower pay on average for the same work.

They have a somewhat easier time moving up through management ranks, as there's an active effort to be cognizant of (and, hopefully, avoid) gender bias in these more visible positions, but not everyone's cut out for management. Many would like at least a fair chance to rise in the traditional scientist ladder.

My wife, for example, has a résumé that should make her a "no-brainer" promotion to the next rank, yet she's been continually passed over in favor of less qualified, (white) male colleagues. It's very discouraging, has lost us a few promising new hires, and has the two of us considering suitable university faculty appointments.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:42 PM   #51
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With respect to gender disparity, at my employer it arises mostly in the lack of promotion opportunities in the ranks for scientists. While it's hard for anyone to get promoted irrespective of gender (to control labor costs, the Lab's parent company implemented a ladder system for staff with hard salary bands and very infrequent promotions--I'm twelve years in my job without even a discussion of promotion, e.g.), it's particularly so for women, which leads to their receiving lower pay on average for the same work.

They have a somewhat easier time moving up through management ranks, as there's an active effort to be cognizant of (and, hopefully, avoid) gender bias in these more visible positions, but not everyone's cut out for management. Many would like at least a fair chance to rise in the traditional scientist ladder.

My wife, for example, has a résumé that should make her a "no-brainer" promotion to the next rank, yet she's been continually passed over in favor of less qualified, (white) male colleagues. It's very discouraging, has lost us a few promising new hires, and has the two of us considering suitable university faculty appointments.
So you're not subject to internal government hiring/firing/promotion procedures? Do the National Labs not fall under the Department of Energy, or is it a question of the scientific employment category specifically?
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:52 PM   #52
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The National Labs are run by private contractors who manage them under the auspices of the Dept. of Energy and National Nuclear Security Administration. Ours, for example, is a consortium of private corporations and universities. We mostly see the hiring freeze effect with respect to our headquarters contacts (several offices have acting staff running them since they can't do a proper job search).

Working for a contractor is a good thing for us. Were we U.S. government employees and tied to their salary scales, we would never be able to recruit any talent. I know I'd be out the door tomorrow if they, say, opted to move the Labs under the direct management of the Dept. of Defense. Even my postdocs make more than my job would rate if on the GS scale for my state.
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:15 PM   #53
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I can accept that, though it wasn't clear from the way he phrased it, since he anchored it with a visual campus presence.
It was anchored that way to reflect the reality of the amount of women at university, and to juxtapose that with the amount of scholarships for them.

@perspicasity Fair enough regarding scholarships in physics (realistically though those numbers apply to most of the 'math' sections on campus, from comp science to engineering).

Also would you be able to link some of those studies that women are better then men at physics? Basically every thing I've ever seen has indicated the opposite.
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:42 PM   #54
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The National Labs are run by private contractors who manage them under the auspices of the Dept. of Energy and National Nuclear Security Administration. Ours, for example, is a consortium of private corporations and universities. We mostly see the hiring freeze effect with respect to our headquarters contacts (several offices have acting staff running them since they can't do a proper job search).

Working for a contractor is a good thing for us. Were we U.S. government employees and tied to their salary scales, we would never be able to recruit any talent. I know I'd be out the door tomorrow if they, say, opted to move the Labs under the direct management of the Dept. of Defense. Even my postdocs make more than my job would rate if on the GS scale for my state.
Offtopic Pers, but if you know, could you tell me what a nuke being detonated underground looks like on the surface?
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:26 PM   #55
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Offtopic Pers, but if you know, could you tell me what a nuke being detonated underground looks like on the surface?
Among the most infamous of such shots was the Sedan event in 1962 (for reasons I won't go into here). This is more typical of an underground test (UGT) event.
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:47 PM   #56
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Surely you're joking, right? There are numerous reasons male athletes are objectively better than female ones, and most of them are biological but eminently realizable if you make a metric based analysis of any two sports that are directly comparable. For instance, weight lifting is a sport that men and women can both compete it, and have the same fundamental structures that contribute to the 'athleticism' of the event. There are no separate rules for men vs women lifting, but the crowd is drawn by the big numbers that are being lift, something men empirically do better. Other examples might include running. There are professional women's sports teams that routinely lose to high school varsity teams, which just goes to show you how large the "competitive advantage" between the two genders.

No amount of investing in women's sports is going to raise those women's ability to out-compete men given the same advantages. If the crowd isn't drawn to the sport because of the gender of the participants, but because of the skill, expertise and ability of the players, then men's sports will probably always be more interesting. That doesn't mean you can't spend money anyway on women's sports, but trying to say that "men's soccer" and "women's soccer" are intrinsically the same is intellectually disingenuous.

Skill, expertise and ability have nothing to do with gender. The most athletic players aren't always the best either. Athleticism isn't a big draw for football either.

Investing in the sport means better coaching, which means better 'skill, expertise and ability'.

You only have to look at the level of men's football thirty years ago compared to now to see the affect it has.

Given all that, it's been a while, but I'm not sure my point had anything to do with the relative level of the different genders - more to do with what they put in. Thus the tennis argument. IDGAF if the Williams sisters would get stomped by Federer, I do care that they play less and get paid the same.
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:56 PM   #57
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Regarding men's versus women's sports...

Honestly I've always felt that it's not about going to see the competition so much as going to see the best.

Maybe the competition for women's weightlifting and men's weightlifting will be the same. Maybe it will be close, and maybe they've worked every bit as hard (or harder) than the men to get where they are.

But the single strongest person in the world is going to be a man, not a woman. And a lot of people want to see the strongest person in the world. The same applies to the fastest.

People want to see the best. And in all the sports I'm familiar with (and granted, I don't give a shit about sports) if you pit men versus women then men will generally come out on top.

That's why I think they get paid more. I think if there was a sport that women were better at than men, given equal effort put into it by both genders, you'd see women making more cash for it. Because then they'd be the best. And I think, in a way, that makes sense.

I would love to be proven wrong. Genuinely.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:13 PM   #58
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True Story, that is an interesting argument, but neglects the principle of a perfect competition with a lack of perfect information.
If Jane knew that she did the same job as John and knew both her wage and John's wage, and knew how much money the company made, then it would stand to simple reason that she would demand a raise to meet his wage. Otherwise she would not be behaving in standard market forces. And women, like men, behave similar to expectations for economics.
In contrast, we have reality, where discussion of wages is heavily classified and kept secret, and where talking about your earnings is not considered socially acceptable across all wages and social classes.
So if you want to call the mass social repression of wage discussion and obfuscation of earning to be an Illuminati level conspiracy, then here is your Eye, sir.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:13 PM   #59
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I think if there was a sport that women were better at than men, given equal effort put into it by both genders, you'd see women making more cash for it. Because then they'd be the best. And I think, in a way, that makes sense.

I would love to be proven wrong. Genuinely.
Gymnastics and figure skating. Equestrian events. Long distance swimming.

Maybe it's just me, but I find women's tennis to be more entertaining to watch. (It's a better game, not just a massive serve followed by the occasional volley.)
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:22 PM   #60
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Gymnastics and figure skating. Equestrian events. Long distance swimming.

Maybe it's just me, but I find women's tennis to be more entertaining to watch. (It's a better game, not just a massive serve followed by the occasional volley.)
Long distance swimming, if true, is exactly the sort of thing I am looking for. I can see it as well, given what little I know about such things.

Gymnastics and figure skating I always thought to be partially artistic -- i.e. who is the 'best' is partially dependent on the judges, rather than straightforward fact such as X weight, X distance, or X speed. But again I don't follow sports.

Equestrian events I always associated equally to the horse as the rider, though this gives me something to think about if something specific regarding a woman's physique provides a tangible advantage to horseback riding.
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