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Old 05-23-2017, 01:52 PM   #21
Dagro
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I will gladly trade my 'security' if it means I can freely travel around in city centres without being stopped every few hundred metres by security personnel. You took hits because of weak arguments and I haven't seen you really respond to except 'yeah yeah SJW'.

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Originally Posted by bolko7
But I do think it is time to stooped accepting Muslims saying that it is not them and we need to be tolerant of them. This is not me being a bigot but If shit like this was done by any other religion, churches would be raided, ppl question without care for theirs rights.
This is where it quickly went downhill. Are you honestly living in such a filter bubble that you believe this? When people call you on it, do you really think that calling those a SJW who disagrees with you is in any way productive or even helpful to your own argument?

If I were a muslim, calls for me to denounce something, that I had no action in, do not condone or support in anyway would be really hurtful. That somebody demands this from me alone, reveals that the person, or parts of the society I live in, do not recognize me as a peaceful and integrated part of the community based on my religion.

As a german I don't feel obligated to feel guilty, responsible or sad every time some neo-nazi idiot kills somebody for their skin colour. Yes, every citizen should be politically active or at least aware. But that doesn't mean you can or should guilt trip whole groups of people for something a small group of radical individuals did.

And all that does not even touch upon how you (and others not in this thread but in the public discussion) advocate for the dismantling of civil rights and liberties for some kind of abstract security feeling that can not ever protect you from a really determined attacker.

I hope I didn't win the bad spelling/grammar 'contest'... *cough*
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:07 PM   #22
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Train station has it own security to prevent terrorist attacked if I am not mistaken ? What more you can not claim that searching everyone going on the train would be bad if it stopped ppl from dieing(here i am being stupid cuz your argument is stupid)

We no longer life in a sane world so security can not be sane any more or we accepted this attacked as a price of doing business.
I'm afraid I simply disagree with you on this. If we searched everyone near a plausible terrorist target (e.g. any crowded area) then everyone in any city in the UK would be searched multiple times a day.

Ignoring any consideration of rights to privacy (which I imagine won't weigh heavily on you) the expense of such a policy, and the cost in terms of time would be gargantuan and would far outweigh any amount saved (being aware that as a government you have to accept that money and lives have an exchange rate).

It simply is an unpleasant cost of "doing business", the methods you are suggesting to stop it would do far more damage than any terrorist could dream of.
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:16 PM   #23
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But I do think it is time to stooped accepting Muslims saying that it is not them and we need to be tolerant of them. This is not me being a bigot but If shit like this was done by any other religion, churches would be raided, ppl question without care for theirs rights.
Here come a shocking true, what I meant by this was this. Can we stooped with ppl calming that being Muslism = being good. Cuz after this attacked there will be 20 tv shows having Muslims saying Islam is not about killing or it was not done my Muslims(but by mad men). I am tired of hearing it. Everyone know that but after every attack more and more time if given to explaining this then ppl that where hurt. Muslim = ppl (they are good and bad) that is all I want, what I do not want is this. When Police make a arrest (that is not after a attacked) ppl first line o thinking is they are bigots (like here, one could notice that I am not that great with writing and might not meant everything exactly but some rather then give me chance to expling attacked me SJW want to give chances to everyone but me ??) Why I am coming so hard after the Police arrest, well in Berlin, there was a chance to capture terrorist before but Cops ignored it. Why I do not know but I can only assume part of it was cuz he was Musialm and Germany is having immigrant problems so Police did not want to start something. If security forces fear to arrest ppl cuz they are Muslims and might get labeled bigots they will not be very effective

Dagro thanks for you post I hope I a smaller bigot then you think

PS. Once more sorry for my english. And I am drooping this topic whole cya.

Ok one more

Quote:
It simply is an unpleasant cost of "doing business", the methods you are suggesting to stop it would do far more damage than any terrorist could dream of.
Accepting kids deaths as a price for anything is too much

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Old 05-23-2017, 02:30 PM   #24
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I read one of the ppl that was at the concert said that they where not checked for anything outside of tickets (looking for source will link i once I find it - got is, well not exactly it cuz the one I read was at bbc but this will do http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...-a7750631.html). I am not a expert about protecting mass events, and from what I know you are not one too. But I know that similar attacks where stooped(sometimes) so this (hopeful) could be stoped too.
It doesn't matter what the security were doing at the event because we have no evidence that the bomber ever attempted to enter.

In fact, the mere presence of security forces actually served their function perfectly. If you think the loss of life was bad at the end of the event, can you imagine how it would have been if the bomber had gained entrance?

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Train station has it own security to prevent terrorist attacked if I am not mistaken ? What more you can not claim that searching everyone going on the train would be bad if it stopped ppl from dieing(here i am being stupid cuz your argument is stupid)
Not in any significant enough numbers (nor, quite frankly, psychic enough) to stop someone walking up to a group of kids with a bomb in their backpack and detonating it (see July 7th bombings).

My argument isn't stupid. It's pragmatic. There's probably a major concert every night of the week in every UK city. Every weekend we have ~15 Premier League teams playing and attracting tens of thousands. Even if we had the money and inclination to run massive security projects on every one of these events, what would stop terrorists just picking smaller events like plays or busy cinema screeings? Or blowing themselves up on crowded tube trains? Or on a bus. Or just kicking in someone's front door and massacring their family?

What you're suggesting is infeasible and ridiculous. We cannot live in a world dictated by the fear of terrorist attacks.

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We no longer life in a sane world so security can not be sane any more or we accepted this attacked as a price of doing business.
Yes, the risk of being bombed is absolutely the price of business in the western world. That has been the case ever since gunpowder became a thing.

People are acting like Islamic terrorism is this great overwhelming threat that suddenly popped into existence and everything has to stop to combat it. The damage done by Islamic terrorists pale in comparison when you consider separatist violence from the IRA and ETA and a slew of other domestic terror threats that Europe has been dealing with for decades.

You know what we did then? We just carried on. Exactly like how we will now.

---------- Post automerged at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:26 ----------

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Are you ok telling this to ppl that lost theirs kids ?
Don't be a cunt.
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:41 PM   #25
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Ok one more



Accepting kids deaths as a price for anything is too much
According to the ONS, in 2015 there were 50 victims of assorted "land transport accidents" under the age of 14.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...eferencetables

Assuming that we could save at least one of these deaths by reducing the speed limit everywhere to 5mph, is it a disgrace that we don't? Or would there perhaps be an excessive price to such a policy?
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:17 PM   #26
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It's realistically impossible to always account for every threat. I could get knifed going to get groceries. The chance of that is probably higher than me becoming a victim of a terrorist attack, true. But I also have a higher chance of defending myself from a mugger than a bomb.

People are outraged when someone says that living in a big city carries an unavoidable burden of having to deal with possible terror attacks. I think it's true. It's either accepting the risk or absolute, far-reaching police state where security trumps personal liberties.

That said, I don't like big events such as concerts and avoid them for a range of reasons. Possible terrorist attack is one of them. Probably ridiculous, given where I live, but fuck it. I can't be rational 100% of the time.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:22 PM   #27
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@bolko7 wow, the sheer ignorance is astounding, do you really think society has enough man power or money to constantly guard every single event with thousand men.

I assure you, even if we had a 1984 society, a determined suicide bomber or just a guy with a shotgun will always be able to kill many people no matter how much surveillance.

Do you know what the best response to such a event is ... doing nothing it's idiots like you who cause mass hysteria who want something to be done which in the end is useless, devours tax money, harms our privacy and stealing everybodys precious time.

Do you really want to be searched every 5 minutes which would slow down our whole economy and probably not even save anybody.

Lol, your comment about people thinking being Muslims = being good is hilarious fear and hate for Muslims is at a alltime high comparable to after 9/11 you really belive Muslims get any special treatment pretty sure that some innocent people get the shit beaten out after that because idiots like you can't differentiate a whole group from radical maniacs.

Socially stigmatizing muslims will only create a enviorment of intolerance and hate towards them, which will lead to them not being able to socially integrate, which is the perfect breeding ground for increasing the number of radical maniacs so in the end you will only create more.

Terrorist, Nazis etc. are often losers who don't feel like a part of society which are the perfect victims for radical groups who can manipulate them and give them a feeling of acceptance and brotherhood.

While Religion can be a factor in radicalizing people shit like this would still happen without religion, it's just a part of humanity, that people who are not integrated, uneduacated, poor etc. will search for a reason to inflict violence against the accepted groups.

I do not want to make light of this sad situation but people everyday die, due to the most ridiculous situations, accidents etc. in far higher numbers which could be prevented if some money would be pumped to fix this issues but you usually won't hear in the news from a guy who broke his neck due to companies saving money in safety measures in construction work etc.

While this is sad, people not related to the victims will move on and should not let this fear effect their private life the chances of being run over by a car, getting killed for your money or slipping on a banana peel and falling down some stairs are higher than this happening to you.

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Old 05-23-2017, 04:04 PM   #28
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Elaborate on the 'keep happening', and do compare and contrast to other large and wealthy European countries.

Also, something something coalition against IS if it is IS-related. (They have claimed but long after it happened, and claiming is cheap, hence the conditional.)
.
Britain, France and Germany have had many terrorist attacks in the last several years.

At least compared to Poland, which had none.
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Old 05-23-2017, 04:59 PM   #29
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Britain, France and Germany have had many terrorist attacks in the last several years.
Moving the goalposts a tiny bit there, aren't you?

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At least compared to Poland, which had none.
So have Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, unless you expand "last several" to "last baker's dozen".

I ask you again to elaborate your point and to actually engage in discussion instead of this pseudo-sealioning you've got going on.

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Why I do not know but I can only assume part of it was cuz he was Musialm
Assuming makes an ass out of u and me, as the saying goes. I've no idea why they didn't get Amri for his apparent involvement in the drugs trade, but where you assume malice, I would like to point out that Hanlon's Razor is also a thing. It's not as if incompetent police is anything new anywhere in the world - they are human and thus prone to errors.
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Old 05-23-2017, 07:42 PM   #30
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The individual who carried out this attack may have been raised Muslim, he may have attended mosques his whole life, but the moment he decided to kill 20 or so children he forfeited his membership card to that religion.

We have this argument every time an attack happens - and given the wave of religious terrorism over the last thirty years, that's understandable, but it's becoming a bit inexcusable. Same song stuck on repeat, baby. Losing that beat we can dance to. Muslims are no more responsible for this attack than you are.

The only one responsible is the radicalised extremist who used his religion as a veil, a cover, a shield of fucking arrogance to justify causing this harm. He was wrong, misguided, and a coward.

If you're willing to blame Muslims (and I'm always happy to see most of you bastards not willing to do so) for this nastiness, then you're part of the problem. And for every asshole there's a hundred good people, trying to live their lives peacefully - either under the tenets of their religion or not, they just want to live healthy, happy lives with people they love in peace. Like the Muslim taxi drivers who drove people away from the Manchester arena for free, or the Muslim surgeons who spent hours upon hours Monday night fighting to save the lives of the injured.

Tl;dr: The moment you blame an entire group of people - race or religion - for the actions of a few, you do more harm than good. You add a poisoned drop of ignorance and hate into the glass of radicalised Kool-Aid that these assholes use to justify their crimes. Stop it.
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Old 05-23-2017, 07:49 PM   #31
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Edit: on second thoughts, never mind.

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Old 05-23-2017, 08:19 PM   #32
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The shortsighted is you, where did I said I want anyone banned ?
Well...

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But I do think it is time to stooped accepting Muslims saying that it is not them and we need to be tolerant of them.
...we just need to 'stop being tolerant', eh? But oh, banning! That's too much! That isn't the logical consequence of what you said! (/sarcasm)

I call bigotry when I see it, and I'm no 'SJW'. So don't think you can hide behind ad hominems; you said what you said, own it.

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What I want is that the Muslim community works with us to find all ppl that could support terrorist, not just ignore odd actions in theirs community.
So, returning to the above, stigmatizing people will really make them want to work with you. That strategy can't possibly fail.

Believe it or not, working with community leaders to find the people who pose a threat is what governments already do. The long and short of it is that you have no real idea of how counterterrorism actually works.

We can't catch everyone; some people will slip through the net. Security forces have to be lucky 100% of the time, but perps have to be lucky only once.
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:58 AM   #33
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To me, it's incredibly frustrating hearing about terrorist attacks and hoping that it isn't a Muslim attacker then finding out it is.

You just know that there will be the same voices of Muslims condemning it but not being heard, people calling for greater abuses of freedom and privacy for a terrible but small problem, others in a backlash against the hate being too free about some things that really should change in Muslim communities and thankfully a lot of people being willing to help.

But at least theres a conversation being had even if most people are either talking past each other or not being heard.

Compare that to America where the greatest terrorist threat is right wing white extremists.
  • the FBI says that they are the biggest terrorist threat
  • they've killed more people in the US in terrorist attacks since 2002
  • they've infiltrated police forces and are organising infiltrators to deliberately obstruct justice
  • they fucking violently took over government property. Seriously, what the fuck America? How is this even a thing?
However there's little talk about it and the current US government has changed the definition of terrorism to ignore them. For all of the worry about Islamic terrorism you should be way more worried about that.
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:48 AM   #34
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It is kind of sad how whenever one of these attacks happens, all the usual suspects don't even wait for the bodies to get cold before jumping on it to push the same political agendas that come up every time terrorism happens. Hell, this thread stopped talking about the actual attack about four posts in to focus on debating Islamaphobia and taking potshots at whichever side of the political spectrum the poster doesn't like.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:09 AM   #35
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At above: in part it was because there was actually little to discuss that hasn't been rehashed already. Suicide bombing is known, there was no known face of the perpetrator to turn the murdering twat into a nihilistic pin-up boy, and while much could be said about British journalists being obnoxious toerags, that isn't news per se either.

In actual news: three men were arrested earlier today - whether that'll go anywhere remains to be seen. For those keeping count, we're on four arrests at the moment. Home Secretary Rudd suspects the perpetrator did not act alone, but for now they remain suspicions and no proof. The independent anti-terrorism taskforce did raise the threat level to the maximum, suggesting there might be intelligence of people wanting to follow suit. (Whether that's linked in an organisation or copycat behaviour is, naturally, unknown.)

Oh, and if the US could keep its leaking to Trump-related business, UK intelligence would appreciate it.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:59 AM   #36
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An ideology which holds martyrdom as one of its highest honors, going as far to provide certain divine rewards for the martyrs is going to vastly produce more suicide bombers, as there is a straight line from the ideology to the action. While it's conceivable to read the Bible and other religious scriptures and be inspired to become a suicide bomber, there just isn't the same theological justification.

tl;dr. There's something fundamentally wrong with Islam to produce such high numbers of terrorist/fanatics/suicide bombers compared to any other major religion in the planet.
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:18 PM   #37
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An ideology which holds martyrdom as one of its highest honors, going as far to provide certain divine rewards for the martyrs is going to vastly produce more suicide bombers, as there is a straight line from the ideology to the action. While it's conceivable to read the Bible and other religious scriptures and be inspired to become a suicide bomber, there just isn't the same theological justification.

tl;dr. There's something fundamentally wrong with Islam to produce such high numbers of terrorist/fanatics/suicide bombers compared to any other major religion in the planet.
Christianity is based on a person sacrificing themselves for the greater good. It would be horrifyingly easy to justify terrorism or suicide bombing within the Bible (hell, look at the IRA in the 90s for a great example).

The main reason for this happening is less to do with religion, but instead with circumstance. Christians tend to be much wealthier than their counterparts, even in regions such as China and India. Not only that, but for the last 300 years, Christians dominated the world. Rarely has a Christian felt like a secondary citizen or the desperation that creates fundamentalists. If they had, I wouldn't doubt it for a second that they would turn to terrorism.

A large reason for Islamic terrorism is how the West treated them in the past. Their guerrilla warfare after colonization in the early 1900s, lead to suicide bombing to be acceptable. They just use religion to justify it instead of independence/freedom.

If you switched the middle east status with the west (meaning the Middle East were the wealthy and powerful ones while the west struggled), you would probably see Christian suicide bombers all over the place. It is pretty easy to justify doing something horrible with most religions as biblical times were a pretty awful place.

tldr: suicide bombing became mainstream due to the independence and inter-fighting due to colonization of the middle east and Africa... just back then it was for 'independence'. They just tied it to religion to make it more acceptable. The same thing would have happened in Christianity if in the same situation.

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Old 05-24-2017, 05:10 PM   #38
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Christianity is based on a person sacrificing themselves for the greater good. It would be horrifyingly easy to justify terrorism or suicide bombing within the Bible (hell, look at the IRA in the 90s for a great example).

The main reason for this happening is less to do with religion, but instead with circumstance. Christians tend to be much wealthier than their counterparts, even in regions such as China and India. Not only that, but for the last 300 years, Christians dominated the world. Rarely has a Christian felt like a secondary citizen or the desperation that creates fundamentalists. If they had, I wouldn't doubt it for a second that they would turn to terrorism.

A large reason for Islamic terrorism is how the West treated them in the past. Their guerrilla warfare after colonization in the early 1900s, lead to suicide bombing to be acceptable. They just use religion to justify it instead of independence/freedom.

If you switched the middle east status with the west (meaning the Middle East were the wealthy and powerful ones while the west struggled), you would probably see Christian suicide bombers all over the place. It is pretty easy to justify doing something horrible with most religions as biblical times were a pretty awful place.

tldr: suicide bombing became mainstream due to the independence and inter-fighting due to colonization of the middle east and Africa... just back then it was for 'independence'. They just tied it to religion to make it more acceptable. The same thing would have happened in Christianity if in the same situation.
I think this is one of the main points when it comes to understanding why the middle east produces the most terrorists at this point in time. It's not the only factor, but it's certainly the precipitating context.

The other way to look at this is to look at the long game. The wider strategy. What's the purpose behind these attacks, and what's the outcome in the long term? The individual suicide bombers may not have a plan, but the organisers certainly do. The west has vastly superior militaries, economies and technology etc, so right now, the Middle East is fighting us the only way they can, guerilla warfare. And it's prominence comes off the backs of the successes of 9/11. And I call that a success because it forced the US into two extraordinarily costly wars, which the WaPo estimates at somewhere between $4 trillion to $6 trillion.

And what have they achieved with that money? Little to nothing. And for more context let's go back to the opening statement that @bolko7 made:
Quote:
I mean really, can we all get a target that we can kill and get this shit over it?
This is the exact reason why they do what they do. They are trying to bait us into more economically draining wars, as they know it's the best/only way to hurt us. When we drain money away from education, healthcare and infrastructure in order to pay for the ever increasing cost of 'wars' and 'security', the terrorists are the ones that win, not us. When we tear our societies apart over fear and suspicion of the second largest religion on the planet, they are the ones who win, not us.

As others in this thread have pointed out, there is no simple or easy solution here, no way to 'quickly' fix the problem. There are just more and less costly actions. And of all the choices we have, I would prefer it if we didn't fight on their terms - or fall prey to the bait offered us.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:00 PM   #39
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@Lindsey Eh I think the problem is less circumstantial and more theological. Both religions have a text that they believe is from God. The interpretation of those texts can lead to extremism. For example it was the perversion of the Christian texts that supported the Crusades and slavery.

There is a difference however. In the Christian faith you have the old and New Testament. Nearly all verses used to support brutal actions can be found in the Old Testament. The Old Testament's purpose however is in highlighting the depravity of man and it's need for a Savior. In the New Testament, you have that Savior appear in the person Jesus. Jesus fulfills the old law and implements a new covenant between God and humanity. Ultimately meaning that the extreme laws of the Old Testament have been done away with. You have the apostles in Acts decide that the way Christians should live is to "abstain from sexual immorality and drunkenness, love all people, obey the government over you, seek peace with all people,etc"

That is inthe governing document of Christianity and made pretty clear. It's one of the reasons many in the upper echelons of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages was so against the translation of the Bible because they knew the common man would call them out on it. Martin Luther eventually did.

In the case of Islam (I'd need to do a more in depth study to fully do this justice) there is less of a divide. While the Bible clearly does away from the horrific extremes of the Old Testament, there is really no "update" to The Q'uran that does the same thing. So you have extremists with more "theological support" for their actions.

Just to clarify, I'm not defending the view that muslims need to be banned or are terrible people. There are far more peaceful adherents to Islam than there are extremists and trying to discriminate based on that is appalling. That said, Islam, as a religion, lends itself more easily to extremism than other religions.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Arthellion View Post
In the case of Islam (I'd need to do a more in depth study to fully do this justice) there is less of a divide. While the Bible clearly does away from the horrific extremes of the Old Testament, there is really no "update" to The Q'uran that does the same thing. So you have extremists with more "theological support" for their actions.

Just to clarify, I'm not defending the view that muslims need to be banned or are terrible people. There are far more peaceful adherents to Islam than there are extremists and trying to discriminate based on that is appalling. That said, Islam, as a religion, lends itself more easily to extremism than other religions.
I'm going to assume from this statement that you've not studied much about the Qur'an, because that depiction is not a particularly accurate one. We have several Muslim members who could explain things further, but it's depiction in (particularly Western) media as being a text prone to extremism is an exaggeration; like the Bible, the meat of ideology is in the interpretation. Wahhabism and Salafist dogma, which is largely responsible for groups like Al Qaida, is itself an extremist interpretation of the source material.

There is little to be gained by casting the blame on the religion. Terrorists of all stripes (Islamist terrorists, Christian terrorists, eco-terrorists, neo-fascists, Sovereign Citizen terrorists, racial supremacist terrorists, etc.) have a lot more in common with one another then their disparate ideological bases would have if their reasoning was truthful.

A more accurate way to think of them is that they are a collection of violent social outcasts who latch onto extremist ideologies in order to justify their violence against society.
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