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Old 06-04-2017, 01:57 PM   #101
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So you want to...continue doing exactly what has been getting done, and which has comprehensively failed? Sure, why not. But if anyone is basing their position on 'feels', its you. You refuse to contemplate a resolution that doesn't involve speaking you mind, and which doesn't involve revenge. Who cares if it begets more violence, so long as you get your revenge for the last round of violence.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:59 PM   #102
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I thought the controversy wasn't that Corbyn wanted dialogue, but that he refused to condemn IRA and the others, and state that their actions were wrong?
Corbyn has quite consistently condemned the violence of the IRA: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7761801.html
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:09 PM   #103
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His approach to these issues is one I quite respect, because its actually got a chance of being successful. You don't get people to the negotiating table by shouting to all and sundry about how awful they are. You have to extend an olive branch.
Hmmm, you can extend the olive branch, but you also need the other side to want peace, too. Otherwise, you're just a fool willing to turn the other cheek and get that slapped as well. What worked to end the Troubles won't work to end the turmoil in Palestine, for example, or with Daesh, because neither side in both of those actually want peace.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:11 PM   #104
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Absolutely true, but a willingness to try something...anything other than the current failed approach has to be applauded. Doubling down on failure isn't a good plan in any situation, but even less so in Government.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:15 PM   #105
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So you want to...continue doing exactly what has been getting done, and which has comprehensively failed? Sure, why not. But if anyone is basing their position on 'feels', its you. You refuse to contemplate a resolution that doesn't involve speaking you mind, and which doesn't involve revenge. Who cares if it begets more violence, so long as you get your revenge for the last round of violence.
Oh we doing the ignore what the other person just said and put words in their mouth routine now? I mean, I don't remember saying anything about revsnchism was smart or that the current politics worked, but since you're saying I'm saying, I better fix whatever I said before.

I mean, I think I had just written that aiming for an equilibrated police where the other side is fully engaged while not leaving out any kind of military response that will depend on the circumstances is what a state should aim for. I have this funny idea in my head that a state has to protect it's innocent civilians, even if the people attacking them have good reasons to be angry. Crazy ain't it?

But I'm sure explaining to the populace that not doing anything, then giving the terrorists legitimacy and giving in to their demands even if partly will go greatly with the population.

I mean, it's not like we don't have successful examples of pacification while using force of arms too. Like, I'm sure that the fact that the FARCS kept breaking the ceasefires arranged for decades and then, after being broken militarily by the government while said government addressed directly to the problems face by the civilians that historically supported the guerrilla , it decided to give up arms and enter a peace agreement where there was almost immediate and unilateral demobilization with some concessions that were good, but not nearly as much as what the guerrilla aimed as it's objective.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:29 PM   #106
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No no no. Just let Putin take over half of Ukraine instead of all of it. Let the terrorists kill half of us instead of all of us. That's how you do diplomacy and compromise.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:50 PM   #107
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Corbyn inviting Hezbollah to Parliament is no different to Thatcher inviting Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the islamist who threw acid in womens faces if they didn't wear a veil, to Downing Street. Corbyn attending ceremonies to commemorate the dead in past conflicts and urging peace whilst respecting individuals involved for their bravery is much like Michael Fallon attending a party in Syria celebrating Bashar al-Assad's re-election with 99% of the vote in 2007. Corbyn condemning the violence in the Ukraine but also condemning the aggressive stance of NATO that he perceives as exacerbating the situation is much the same as Amber Rudd condemning terrorism but promoting the selling of arms to the Saudi Arabian regime who indirectly fund and arm terrorists.

Sometimes politicians can't have a kneejerk 'bomb everyone we dislike' response and must engage in dialogue but it's the motivations for that dialogue we should look at - whether that diplomacy with abhorrent people is with the goal of seeking greater peace or seeking greater profits.

(edit: half these posts should probably be in the uk gen election thread...)
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:58 PM   #108
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Corbyn inviting Hezbollah to Parliament is no different to Thatcher inviting Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the islamist who threw acid in womens faces if they didn't wear a veil, to Downing Street. Corbyn attending ceremonies to commemorate the dead in past conflicts and urging peace whilst respecting individuals involved for their bravery is much like Michael Fallon attending a party in Syria celebrating Bashar al-Assad's re-election with 99% of the vote in 2007. Corbyn condemning the violence in the Ukraine but also condemning the aggressive stance of NATO that he perceives as exacerbating the situation is much the same as Amber Rudd condemning terrorism but promoting the selling of arms to the Saudi Arabian regime who indirectly fund and arm terrorists.
See, the implication of your narrative there is "It's okay because other people did similar things", whereas my reaction is "All of those things were despicable."
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Old 06-04-2017, 03:05 PM   #109
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Corbyn inviting Hezbollah to Parliament is no different to Thatcher inviting Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the islamist who threw acid in womens faces if they didn't wear a veil, to Downing Street. Corbyn attending ceremonies to commemorate the dead in past conflicts and urging peace whilst respecting individuals involved for their bravery is much like Michael Fallon attending a party in Syria celebrating Bashar al-Assad's re-election with 99% of the vote in 2007. Corbyn condemning the violence in the Ukraine but also condemning the aggressive stance of NATO that he perceives as exacerbating the situation is much the same as Amber Rudd condemning terrorism but promoting the selling of arms to the Saudi Arabian regime who indirectly fund and arm terrorists.

Sometimes politicians can't have a kneejerk 'bomb everyone we dislike' response and must engage in dialogue but it's the motivations for that dialogue we should look at - whether that diplomacy with abhorrent people is with the goal of seeking greater peace or seeking greater profits.

(edit: half these posts should probably be in the uk gen election thread...)
We're engaging in whataboutism is now? Putin would be proud.
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Old 06-04-2017, 03:06 PM   #110
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See, the implication of your narrative there is "It's okay because other people did similar things", whereas my reaction is "All of those things were despicable."
That wasn't the intention of my post. How about this: some groups around the world have violent goals due to the circumstances they are in. Do you engage with those groups on a case by case basis where you either bomb them or seek some way to profit from them or do you engage with them in order to try and reach peaceful conclusions to their conflicts?
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Old 06-04-2017, 04:03 PM   #111
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The Left historically stands against oppression everywhere; Corbyn and the Stop the War british illiberal left spits on that proud history.
Of course they're fucking illiberal, considering the term 'liberal' tends to be correlated with the right wing of the European political spectrum.

Pedantics aside, but IIRC the more right wing mainstream parties tend to be perceived as stronger on national security issues in the western world, and May does have the advantage of being in the government and having a record to fall back on. (Though that's also a disadvantage given the police cuts that are being heavily touted on Labour-affiliated sites.) Second attack in a few weeks might give May some advantage, though, but also depends on what information becomes known. If it's another homegrown attack it'd be different from a refugee etc.
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Old 06-04-2017, 04:24 PM   #112
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Of course they're fucking illiberal, considering liberalism tends to be correlated with the right wing of the European political spectrum.
Hang on, what?
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Old 06-04-2017, 04:41 PM   #113
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I think most people would say that peaceful solutions are ideal so long as:

1) Both parties negotiate in good faith.
2) The terms agreed to are acceptable.

The problem with appeasement is that both those principles tend to be broken. You give away Czechoslovakia for a deal that gets broken six months later.
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Old 06-04-2017, 04:54 PM   #114
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Hang on, what?
I slightly misspoke - not so much liberalism, but the term 'liberal' is very much not of the Left over here. Doesn't mean they don't share the free speech values that liberalism implies, though.
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Old 06-04-2017, 05:36 PM   #115
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See, the implication of your narrative there is "It's okay because other people did similar things", whereas my reaction is "All of those things were despicable."
Yet, as you so often say, we deal not in the ideal, but in the realities we face. Corbyn advocates opening a dialogue with the bad people we aren't on the side of, as opposed to listening and financially aiding to the bad guys we support, ie Saudi Arabia.

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I slightly misspoke - not so much liberalism, but the term 'liberal' is very much not of the Left over here. Doesn't mean they don't share the free speech values that liberalism implies, though.
This is very true, and extremely confusing when I first moved to Australia. The right wing party is the Liberal part, and the left wing is the Labour party.

@Invictus The only way the solution you are proposing works is if we literally invade and occupy the Middle East long term. Are you still genuinely calling for this, as the best solution to the problem? Because if you aren't, and we start cracking down on Islam in the West, like May is proposing to do, all we are going to do is put desperate people up against a wall where they have nowhere left to turn. A significant percentage of these people will engage in Terrorism, and considering the wide availability of vans and knives, stopping someone determined to cause harm in our societies is all but impossible. Of course, in our attempt to do so we will undermine all the progress we have made, the freedoms we have fought for over the last century.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:03 PM   #116
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Yet, as you so often say, we deal not in the ideal, but in the realities we face. Corbyn advocates opening a dialogue with the bad people we aren't on the side of, as opposed to listening and financially aiding to the bad guys we support, ie Saudi Arabia.



This is very true, and extremely confusing when I first moved to Australia. The right wing party is the Liberal part, and the left wing is the Labour party.

@Invictus The only way the solution you are proposing works is if we literally invade and occupy the Middle East long term. Are you still genuinely calling for this, as the best solution to the problem? Because if you aren't, and we start cracking down on Islam in the West, like May is proposing to do, all we are going to do is put desperate people up against a wall where they have nowhere left to turn. A significant percentage of these people will engage in Terrorism, and considering the wide availability of vans and knives, stopping someone determined to cause harm in our societies is all but impossible. Of course, in our attempt to do so we will undermine all the progress we have made, the freedoms we have fought for over the last century.
.... Pretty sure you're confusing threads and situations and context. That's important Inomine, context. And lol, I don't remember agreeing with May or being anti-Islam. So, wut?
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:41 PM   #117
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A significant percentage of these people will engage in Terrorism, and considering the wide availability of vans and knives, stopping someone determined to cause harm in our societies is all but impossible.
LMAO. If there was ever an opportunity for me to spin a thread into a 2nd Amendment argument and get the whole thing booted into the Hall of Shame, this is it.



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Old 06-04-2017, 06:52 PM   #118
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The idea of negotiating with Islamic terrorists has another major snag beyond the points I raised earlier: namely, who the hell do we negotiate with? You could try talking to the leader of on group, but there are dozens of different groups out there. On top of that, most of the terrorist organizations are highly decentralized and have a pretty flexible hierarchy.

Even if you managed to work out acceptable terms with the head of ISIS, and ISIS actually honored those terms, you'd still have dozens of other groups out there, and a "Provisional ISIS" or "Real ISIS" would spring up within weeks.
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:31 PM   #119
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Not strictly about the Manchester attack, but following on from the one in London, this is relevant:

Reuters: Iran says London attacks 'wake up call', urges uprooting terrorism sources

Iran is taking pot shots at Saudi Arabia, but Iran telling people to crack down on terrorism funding is just about the most blatantly hypocritical piece of rhetoric I have ever seen.
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:59 PM   #120
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Not strictly about the Manchester attack, but following on from the one in London, this is relevant:

Reuters: Iran says London attacks 'wake up call', urges uprooting terrorism sources

Iran is taking pot shots at Saudi Arabia, but Iran telling people to crack down on terrorism funding is just about the most blatantly hypocritical piece of rhetoric I have ever seen.
Iran lecturing the west on cracking down on terrorism is like France lecturing the US on winning a war.
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