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Old 06-14-2017, 08:14 PM   #1
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That worked out well for Nixon. What could possibly go wrong?

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More fun news!

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The special counsel overseeing the investigation into Russia’s role in the 2016 election is interviewing senior intelligence officials as part of a widening probe that now includes an examination of whether President Trump attempted to obstruct justice, officials said.

The move by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III to investigate Trump’s conduct marks a major turning point in the nearly year-old FBI investigation, which until recently focused on Russian meddling during the presidential campaign and on whether there was any coordination between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. Investigators have also been looking for any evidence of possible financial crimes among Trump associates, officials said.
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Trump had received private assurances from then-FBI Director James B. Comey starting in January that he was not personally under investigation. Officials say that changed shortly after Comey’s firing.

Five people briefed on the requests, speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly, said Daniel Coats, the current director of national intelligence, Mike Rogers, head of the National Security Agency, and Rogers’s recently departed deputy, Richard Ledgett, agreed to be interviewed by Mueller’s investigators as early as this week. The investigation has been cloaked in secrecy, and it is unclear how many others have been questioned by the FBI.
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The obstruction-of-justice investigation of the president began days after Comey was fired on May 9, according to people familiar with the matter. Mueller’s office has now taken up that work, and the preliminary interviews scheduled with intelligence officials indicate his team is actively pursuing potential witnesses inside and outside the government.

The interviews suggest Mueller sees the question of attempted obstruction of justice as more than just a “he said, he said” dispute between the president and the fired FBI director, an official said.

Probing Trump for possible crimes is a complicated affair, even if convincing evidence of a crime were found. The Justice Department has long held that it would not be appropriate to indict a sitting president. Instead, experts say, the onus would be on Congress to review any findings of criminal misconduct and then decide whether to initiate impeachment proceedings.
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Fine, but it's possible to simultaneously understand why something happened and also not blame anyone except the perp.
A viewpoint not exactly popular on either side of the aisle these days, though criticism of understanding is hardly new. (On a - for me - local level, I've seen flaming w.r.t this as far back as 2010 and a discussion why certain neighbourhoods were shit.) I've never quite understood the dislike of trying to understand the why - while it does run the risk of getting stuck going down paths that don't really lead anywhere, the idea behind it is that of identifying cause and effect and then maybe tackling the problem at its root.

You know, teach someone to fish etc, only w.r.t. solving criminality.

In international politics, the Senate has codified Russia sanctions first brought in by Obama's executive orders, plus some extras, in a 97-2 (Lee, Paul voted aganist, van Hollen abstained for whatever reason) vote. I'm assuming Trump isn't happy, but eh.
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A viewpoint not exactly popular on either side of the aisle these days, though criticism of understanding is hardly new. (On a - for me - local level, I've seen flaming w.r.t this as far back as 2010 and a discussion why certain neighbourhoods were shit.) I've never quite understood the dislike of trying to understand the why - while it does run the risk of getting stuck going down paths that don't really lead anywhere, the idea behind it is that of identifying cause and effect and then maybe tackling the problem at its root.
Except that my problem was explicitly trying to ascribe logical reasoning and justification for obviously illogical actions and trying to give propos for a line of thought that will lead to victim blaming without any moving towards a solution.

Should conservatives stop trying to defend what they believe? Should they refuse to do what they were elected for? Should the GOP become liberal because maniacs with guns might shoot them? That's not how democracy works.

They weren't doing anything illegal or outside what is expected from a normal, vibrant democracy with differing povs.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:23 PM   #2
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Except that my problem was explicitly trying to ascribe logical reasoning and justification for obviously illogical actions and trying to give propos for a line of thought that will lead to victim blaming without any moving towards a solution.

Should conservatives stop trying to defend what they believe? Should they refuse to do what they were elected for? Should the GOP become liberal because maniacs with guns might shoot them? That's not how democracy works.

They weren't doing anything illegal or outside what is expected from a normal, vibrant democracy with differing povs.
Understanding something does not mean condoning it.

The man's actions, although they are not justifiable or rational to us, they are logical, given his irrational nature. Even irrational people think they're acting rationally, because inside their twisted worldview, it makes perfect sense.

TL;DR, that's not victim-blaming. So stop being all triggered and shit.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:29 PM   #3
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There will need to be dozens and dozens of hearings and depos before any sort of impeachment proceedings can begin. Even if they find obstruction charges to be legit... well... clench thine anus... because we've got, at bare minimum, another solid year of Trump admin ahead of us.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:31 PM   #4
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Understanding something does not mean condoning it.

The man's actions, although they are not justifiable or rational to us, they are logical, given his irrational nature. Even irrational people think they're acting rationally, because inside their twisted worldview, it makes perfect sense.

TL;DR, that's not victim-blaming. So stop being all triggered and shit.
They're logical in their irrationality, because... he thinks they're rational. And that evidence at hand points that in his insanity he acted in a logical way that was... Republicans being Republicans is evil, and thus the cause at hand was... republicans behaving like republicans and that's not victim blaming at all? I'm confused by what you're defending. We're not talking about abstract concepts here Revan, its this specific case.

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More like it'sbeginning...maybe.gif

There will need to be dozens and dozens of hearings and depos before any sort of impeachment proceedings can begin. Even if they find obstruction charges to be legit... well... clench thine anus... because we've got, at bare minimum, another solid year of Trump admin ahead of us.
Mhm. I expect Congress to turn on him before that though if it threatens to reach that level, and it this kind of wear is ideal for Dems if they want big wins in 2018.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:37 PM   #5
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:38 PM   #6
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They're logical in their irrationality, because... he thinks they're rational. And that evidence at hand points that in his insanity he acted in a logical way that was... Republicans being Republicans is evil, and thus the cause at hand was... republicans behaving like republicans and that's not victim blaming at all? I'm confused by what you're defending. We're not talking about abstract concepts here Revan, its this specific case.
Investigating a crime to understand what happened and why isn't victim-blaming. It's a fairly basic concept.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:38 PM   #7
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@Invictus Yet I would argue there's a teensy tiny difference between the explicit victim-blaming antics of 'you reap what you sow' and the search for understanding of 'did X policy cause Y result', to argue two abstract extremes. It should be, and is, possible to formulate questioning that aims to answer the latter question without veering into stupid politicising of tragedies such as this one. I replied to the overarching concept that I thought was present in Revan's post, not the impetus for it. My apologies for being unclear in this case.

If you think we cannot and should not discuss this abstract concept without nigh-continuously referring to the specific case that prompted its relevance, that is fine, but we'll also have to agree to disagree on it.

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Old 06-14-2017, 08:41 PM   #8
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I just don't get how it is victim blaming when I said:

1) Republicans have pissed a lot of people off lately
- Which is true, just like Democrats pissed off a lot of people in the past. The Republican run government has not been making a lot of friends lately, which is unique as this usually happens after a few years in power, not at the start. So, you had a unpopular government get elected without the popular vote and then they managed to worsen relations by trying to pass bills that very few people like. Add on the fact that many people believe Trump should be impeached and they believe the Republicans don't care about his problems because they are finally in power....

...and you got a keg ready to go boom.

2) Desperate people and those who have mental problems are more likely to commit crimes like this.
- Once again, true. This is similar to school shootings where the shooter wants to get revenge before ending his own life. It is a way of making a statement, and to them its logical.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:42 PM   #9
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Investigating a crime to understand what happened and why isn't victim-blaming. It's a fairly basic concept.
Yes. That's exactly what I defended. See my extensive posts about it.

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@Invictus Yet I would argue there's a teensy tiny difference between the explicit victim-blaming antics of 'you reap what you sow' and the search for understanding of 'did X policy cause Y result', to argue two abstract extremes. It should be, and is, possible to formulate questioning that aims to answer the latter question without veering into stupid politicising of tragedies such as this one. I replied to the overarching concept that I thought was present in Revan's post, not the impetus for it. My apologies for being unclear in this case.

If you think we cannot and should not discuss this abstract concept without nigh-continuously referring to the specific case that prompted its relevance, that is fine, but we'll also have to agree to disagree on it.
That's fine, it was also my mistake to assume wrongly. Obviously understanding what happened should always be looked for, but trying to ascribe some kind of overaching narrative that implies pattern and logic for this specific case, which would tie it up to politics/opinions being in some kind considered justification for a crime is what galls.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:43 PM   #10
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Yes. That's exactly what I defended. See my extensive posts about it.
If it is, then I don't see why you've been jumping down my throat for doing exactly that...
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:57 PM   #11
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Taking away healthcare specifically targets those that would be most desperate or have nothing left to lose.

Understanding does not mean condoning. (Which I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees with?)
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:05 PM   #12
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:14 PM   #13
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If it is, then I don't see why you've been jumping down my throat for doing exactly that...
I quoted you exactly twice (now thrice). One I explained in details why, which you even agreed that the assumption I made was understandable by the context of the discussion at hand. The second time was you quoting me and then telling me I was an easily triggered moron and that the case at hand obviously had a logic that could be applied elsewhere. Then I asked for specific proof of that, and you answer me in generals. In a case you yourself acknlowdged as suigeneris.

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Taking away healthcare specifically targets those that would be most desperate or have nothing left to lose.

Understanding does not mean condoning. (Which I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees with?)
Yes. And the case at hands has any, whatsover, indication that this specific person was personally affected by that? That's the entire point of the discussion. You're ascribing him a motivation that just doesn't seem to exist.

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I just don't get how it is victim blaming when I said:

1) Republicans have pissed a lot of people off lately
- Which is true, just like Democrats pissed off a lot of people in the past. The Republican run government has not been making a lot of friends lately, which is unique as this usually happens after a few years in power, not at the start. So, you had a unpopular government get elected without the popular vote and then they managed to worsen relations by trying to pass bills that very few people like. Add on the fact that many people believe Trump should be impeached and they believe the Republicans don't care about his problems because they are finally in power....

...and you got a keg ready to go boom.

2) Desperate people and those who have mental problems are more likely to commit crimes like this.
- Once again, true. This is similar to school shootings where the shooter wants to get revenge before ending his own life. It is a way of making a statement, and to them its logical.
Let's go step by step.

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The Republican run government has not been making a lot of friends lately, which is unique as this usually happens after a few years in power, not at the start.
And that means Democrats should've expected attacks last year? I fail to see the logic of this statement or how it could be applied as a pattern. If anything, if you were any kind of right, Republicans in 2007 would've faced a shooting every week.

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2) Desperate people and those who have mental problems are more likely to commit crimes like this.
- Once again, true. This is similar to school shootings where the shooter wants to get revenge before ending his own life. It is a way of making a statement, and to them its logical
Except that this case at hand has no indication whatsoever at the moment that he faced this kind of desperate situation. You're giving him motives that just weren't even mentioned anywhere. I mean, he could, obviously, but that doesn't allow you to invent a reasoning for him just because it fits your narrative. Worse, the Bill isn't even a Law, so he has no reason to be desperate yet, since he didn't feel any effects yet. It would be just paranoia, plain and simple.

Try that logic with Obama and with a conservative that likes gun and his fear of having his gun taken away.

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So, you had a unpopular government get elected without the popular vote and then they managed to worsen relations by trying to pass bills that very few people like.
Except that politicians everywhere pass unpopular bills all the time, and in Parliamentary elections the party in power rarely has the absolute majority. Yet you can't honestly say you're expecting May or Trudeau get shot for PROPOSING a bill that people didn't liike.

You're crafting an entire narrative based on your, liberal, point of view based on assumptions and not even circumstancial evidence. So in conclusion, you're crafting this entire narrative based on that the bills GOP passed crossed sometime of line, while not even deigning to explain exactly how and why it passed and how it relates to this shooting.

edit: Forgot to add the final conclusion.

Last edited by Invictus; 06-14-2017 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:44 PM   #14
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I quoted you exactly twice (now thrice). One I explained in details why, which you even agreed that the assumption I made was understandable by the context of the discussion at hand. The second time was you quoting me and then telling me I was an easily triggered moron and that the case at hand obviously had a logic that could be applied elsewhere. Then I asked for specific proof of that, and you answer me in generals. In a case you yourself acknowledged as suigeneris.
The specifics of the case are by definition suigeneris. The profile is not, it's generally applicable. And the scenario is all too common.

You never asked me for 'proof' of anything, you said this:

Quote:
They're logical in their irrationality, because... he thinks they're rational. And that evidence at hand points that in his insanity he acted in a logical way that was... Republicans being Republicans is evil, and thus the cause at hand was... republicans behaving like republicans and that's not victim blaming at all? I'm confused by what you're defending. We're not talking about abstract concepts here Revan, its this specific case.
which is just a rambling series of statements followed by an accusation of victim-blaming.
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:09 PM   #15
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The specifics of the case are by definition suigeneris. The profile is not, it's generally applicable. And the scenario is all too common.

You never asked me for 'proof' of anything, you said this:

which is just a rambling series of statements followed by an accusation of victim-blaming.
So you used suigeneris to say that the specifics of this specific were in fact specific to this specific case. Congratulations on that. I was confusing this case with the other mass shooting that involved the GOP majority whip that happened in June 14 of 2017 in Washington DC in baseball field. Gee. Thanks for making that clear.

And that's your line of thought. Not my fault you never bothered to organize it or make anything about except some quick firing posts without any depth, and confusing all my arguments into one on purpose.

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The man's actions, although they are not justifiable or rational to us, they are logical, given his irrational nature. Even irrational people think they're acting rationally, because inside their twisted worldview, it makes perfect sense.
You said as answer to me denying that it should be expected this kind of result just because of what GOP did. Even better, you hijacked my answer to Oment and made it seem as if it were complementing my answer Lindsey, which it wasn't since they were different arguments if with similar end conclusions. So you conflated to arguments into one because again you didn't bother to read what I wrote.

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I'm confused by what you're defending. We're not talking about abstract concepts here Revan, its this specific case.
Yes. It's very hard to guess here that I wanted you to elaborate on what you said, and hopefully, provide evidence for what you just stated as a fact. I just like saying I'm confused and like even more to stay that way.

(Inb4 you use that to say it certainly looks like that so to avoid actually providing a real answer).
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:25 PM   #16
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You said as answer to me denying that it should be expected this kind of result just because of what GOP did.
Actually, I said that in response to your statement that your problem with asserting logic to the situation was that it leads to victim-blaming. To which my response was that understanding a thing is not condoning it, that the man's actions are inherently logical, given an irrational viewpoint, and that that isn't victim-blaming.

You then asked me for proof. Proof of what? It's self-evident.

I suspect we're talking past each other.


--

In an effort to get back on topic, Trump apparently called the mayor of an island in the Chesapeake and told him not to worry about rising sea levels.

I think this is interesting because it exhibits a critical piece of bad logic that many climate change skeptics/deniers fall prey to: Namely, that because a thing has always been a way, it will continue to be that way.
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:31 PM   #17
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Actually, I said that in response to your statement that your problem with asserting logic to the situation was that it leads to victim-blaming. To which my response was that understanding a thing is not condoning it, that the man's actions are inherently logical, given an irrational viewpoint, and that that isn't victim-blaming.

You then asked me for proof. Proof of what? It's self-evident.

I suspect we're talking past each other.
So it seems. My statement was in direct answer to Oment comment that seemed to imply that I was defending not investigation the crime, while I was just saying that while it should be done, people shouldn't ascribe him motivations that weren't there nor assuming that what he did was in anyway logical except in his insanity, which is what Lindsey was doing with that whole healthcare thing.

So. It's a big knot.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:27 AM   #18
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Scalise is rapidly approaching fucked.

https://www.medstarwashington.org/sa...date/#q=%7B%7D



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Congressman Steve Scalise sustained a single rifle shot to the left hip. The bullet travelled across his pelvis, fracturing bones, injuring internal organs, and causing severe bleeding. He was transported in shock to MedStar Washington Hospital Center, a Level I Trauma Center. He underwent immediate surgery, and an additional procedure to stop bleeding. He has received multiple units of blood transfusion. His condition is critical, and he will require additional operations. We will provide periodic updates.
During the hospital visit, Donnie couldn't even talk to Scalise, he had to talk to his wife.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:43 AM   #19
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Scalise is rapidly approaching fucked.

https://www.medstarwashington.org/sa...date/#q=%7B%7D




During the hospital visit, Donnie couldn't even talk to Scalise, he had to talk to his wife.
If it crossed the pubic area and hit bone, there's likely damage to the external iliac artery. Absolutely not good.

Fuck you, crazy shooter guy. Enjoy being dead.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:50 AM   #20
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Yeah. I know some folks who know a know a thing or two about acute trauma to the pelvis. Like, pelvis injuries are terrible. The pelvis is a cobweb of arteries and veins, the bowel and bladder floats around in there every which way, the pelvis and a leg can hold over a liter of blood each.. Repair of pelvic injuries is a huge fucking deal and, as you could imagine, stopping bleeding via tamponade or "holding pressure" is nigh impossible. I know a guy who got shot in the ass in OIF, and the round bounced off of his pelvis every which way and just shredded everything in there.

He could be in a very bad way. As well, every single day on a vent or back and forth into an OR is another day a complication or hospital acquired infection could occur. A lot of people don't appreciate that general anesthesia isn't like being asleep, your body literally thinks it is running from a lion the entire time it is being cut on. Its hard as hell on a person.

In other news, life is literally a Clancy novel, potential dirty bomb in a shipping container in Charleston, CG has cleared a 1 NM safe zone around the vessel.

Prooooooooooooooooobably nothing, but at the same time lol it's 2017. And hey, the Norks have more delivery problems than detonation problems.

https://content.govdelivery.com/acco...letins/1a27e43
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