Debate on Existence

[Cupspeaker]

I don\'t believe in god, afterlife, reincarnation, heaven, hell, etc. It\'s my choice to be an atheist. I believe that when a person dies it\'s over. It is done. All gone. So I would not die for anything or anybody. I try to pack as much fun as possible in my life because once I die it\'s over. By the way anyone else atheist?

[Taure]

Erm...it's my experience that most people are atheists...

[Cupspeaker]

Really? Like who? Your friends? Family?

[Amerision]

Really? Like who? Your friends? Family?

Forgive me, but you sound insecure in your lack of religion.

Erm...it's my experience that most people are atheists...

I've actually found that many people claim to not believe in religion, call it bullshit, whatever.

But very few people actually believe this deep down. Most people don't believe in the actual religion and its various methods, but they do believe in the idea of an afterlife, and a God.

Even if it isn't true, I would still want to believe in it. Not believing makes for a cold, sad, depressing life. I'd rather believe that when I die, it's not the end.

You can call me self-delusional, but hey, whatever makes my life better!

In addition, whether you are an athiest or not, you still are following some basic form of religion. If you've ever stopped yourself from doing something that you believe is 'immoral' because its immoral, then chances are you do believe in some detached way.

Otherwise, you'd be doing some stuff that society would be frowning on.

I'll repeat what I said above, while I see the logic in athiesm, I'm probably agnostic, in that I honestly don't know, but believe in some form of higher being and afterlife because it's just comforting.

Linking this to Harry Potter, you can pretty much say that Voldemort is an athiest, he doesn't want to die and become nonexistent.

[Xiph0]

Cupspeaker: Friendly word of advice, while I'm a (strong) Atheist, theres a few Christians around, including DGD.

Again, I'd die for my (extended and immediate) family, but for sure not a friend.

If you've ever stopped yourself from doing something that you believe is 'immoral' because its immoral, then chances are you do believe in some detached way.

This isn't organized, or reinforced, or a ritual in the classic sense.

These are believes made of free-will and free conscious.

Saying "You'll go to hell if you don't __" Pray, for instance, takes away from that "free-conscious", it's done by organized groups, and reinforced through ritual; thus a religion.

Linking this to Harry Potter, you can pretty much say that Voldemort is an athiest, he doesn't want to die and become nonexistent.

ROFL! Voldemort is just like any of the rest of us in that he doesn't want to die; this doesn't make him Atheist, Amerision, it makes him a thinking being.

You can call me self-delusional, but hey, whatever makes my life better!

Well, okay then, you're self-delusional.

[Giovanni]

Speaking here as a true atheist (no after-life, reincarnation, soul, etc) I am going to say that it isn't that depressing of a life, and I don't really fear death either.

I will admit that it bothered me a bit at first... But in the end it made me realize how great an opportunity life affords us. I mean think about it, 72 years to do whatever the fuck we want. Short in the universe's time, but in terms of human experience -- thats one hell of a run. I wouldn't want to live forever; on this world, or in any other. Do I regret that I won't have the opportunity to do everything? Maybe, but what would I do once I'd done it all?

I've got nothing against people who need organized religion to give them that little spiritual boost that I've found through atheism... It's their morals that I tend to have issues with.

As for why I as an atheist choose to be more or less morally oriented -- it's very simple: Life Expectancy. I'd rather not spend valuable time experiencing prison, and Bubba-the-Bastards-Big-Below-the-Belt-Brain.

And as for why I would die for a few friends, knowing that it would be the end of my existence; that's not as simple, but I would still do it. I think I covered it in previous posts, maybe.

EDIT: If this post offends the religious members of the forum, sorry. I just don't believe in a Supreme Being or in an Afterlife.

[Amerision]

Each for his own, I guess.

I used to think about death alot, and was terrified at the concept of just going out like a flame on a candle.

Technically, it is impossible for the brain to concieve not existing, as the notion of nonexistence of the self is beyond our capacity of comprehension, as we take the existence of the self as a universal constant (ie, how does this affect me, where am I in relation to X, etc).

Imagining nonexistence in impossible simply because just doing that is trying to bring the concept of nonexistence to you, trying to see how nonexistence would effect you. You can't do that because "you" don't exist in that scenario, and you can't see how nonexistence would effect you.

Yes, I have thought about this ALOT.

If believing in the man upstairs is what it takes to take my mind of the above, then so be it. I then lead a happier life.

I guess you can relate it to you not thinking about the millions of bacteria in your mouth, and how they are killing your cells, etc. It's simply easier to be ignorant, and get on with your life. Being omnipotent would be extremely depressing.

As for Voldemort being an athiest, why else would he not believe that there is a "next great adventure" (afterlife)?

Not believing that there is a "next great adventure" implies that you are athiest.

[Taure]

Originally Posted by Cupspeaker

Really? Like who? Your friends? Family?

I myself am a Christian, but out of the 800 people at my school, only around 25 would claim to be a theist (not athiest - a theist).

I would say that this is typical of Britain in general.

As for death, I'm not afraid of it, but what I am afraid of is the act of dying.

[Xiph0]

As for Voldemort being an athiest, why else would he not believe that there is a "next great adventure" (afterlife)?

Not believing that there is a "next great adventure" implies that you are athiest.

What book was that in? I don't recall that.

[Giovanni]

I would disagree that it is impossible to think of not existing.

It all boils down to being able to say, I am not X, nor am I Y... The Universe is X. I am [line segment] (x,y) , (x,y). Not all of the universe is in relation to me, therefore my existence -- while not meaningless is just one tiny speck of the infinite.

Or better yet, remove it one step further -- I usually think of it as a 2-dimensional Y/X graph, with a small area that is in three dimensions (Y/X/Z). In that small area, I can exert influence, albeit a very small one. Outside of it, the universe has no relation to me, nor I to it.

[Amerision]

You can think of nonexistence, just not you not existing. You related a point to your being. That is all and well, but you are thinking about it as an outside observer, looking at a point that you call yourself nonexisting. In reality, you are still there, observing.

Can you think of you when you don't exist? Can you imagine where "you" are, and how you would feel?

It defies logic.

[Giovanni]

The above Y/X/Z scenario does not have me as an observer, because due to the third 'Z' plane, I am unaware of what happens on the two planes below me because I am unable to see them.

Instead I am confined to my own line segment with no ability to interact with area's outside my plane. As observation is as you just said an interaction, I am unable to observe them either.

[Amerision]

That's not what I meant.

You are placing yourself on the plane. You are imagining the points, seeing them, visualizing them.

That means you are observing. You are imagining this reality. You are thinking of it.

Just the fact that you are imagining means that you still exist.

Try imagining the world without you existing. You can think of the world without you interacting with the people, but then that fails. You still exist in that you are thinking and imaginging the interactions. Your thoughts are present.

This argument in of itself is futile. My point is that your counterpoints are nonexistent and false. Any point that you would make would automatically conflict with this theory.

[Giovanni]

In order for me not to exist on the plane, then the plane would not exist, and then I would not exist to observe the universe. The plane is my life. Once I reach it's bounderies there is nothing for me to observe. The boundaries would be death. I can however exist and interact with my own life (the Y/X/Z boundaries), and in that respect, you are correct, I cannot imagine myself not existing to eat breakfast today as I have already eaten breakfast. I cannot imagine myself not eating breakfast at any of the 'breakfast' points within my plane of existence.

However, this only covers my finite plane of existence -- which does not include the parts of existence which we are debating

[Amerision]

In order for me not to exist on the plane, then the plane would not exist, and then I would not exist to observe the universe. The plane is my life. Once I reach it's bounderies there is nothing for me to observe. The boundaries would be death.

And that is exactly what I'm trying to say. If you try imagining yourself did using the athiestic belief of complete nonexistence, it is impossible.

I can however exist and interact with my own life (the Y/X/Z boundaries), and in that respect, you are correct, I cannot imagine myself not existing to eat breakfast today as I have already eaten breakfast. I cannot imagine myself not eating breakfast at any of the 'breakfast' points within my plane of existence.

However, this only covers my finite plane of existence -- which does not include the parts of existence which we are debating

The mere fact that you are referring to your plane of existence, your life, conscienceness, means that you are alive. We are debating how you would be if you were outside of the boundries of your life - nonexistence. And, as you say above, it is impossible.

QED

[Giovanni]

It wont let me edit my previous post... So here is previous post version 2.0

In order for me not to exist on the plane, then the plane would not exist, and then I would not exist to observe the universe. The plane is my life. Once I reach it's bounderies there is nothing for me to observe. The boundaries would be death. I can however exist and interact with my own life (the Y/X/Z boundaries), and in that respect, you are correct, I cannot imagine myself not existing to eat breakfast today as I have already eaten breakfast. I cannot imagine myself not eating breakfast at any of the 'breakfast' points within my plane of existence.

However, this only covers my finite plane of existence -- which does not include the parts of existence which we are debating

*80000 years of philosophical debate later*

*drumroll*

Neither of us have convinced the other.

[Cupspeaker]

I dont understand and I won\'t try to. To the athiests: Why are you atheist? I just wanna know. What\'s your reasons?

[Lord Ravenclaw]

Non-serious answer: Because nothing out there is more superior a lifeform than I.

Serious answer: Because I am a man of facts, I don't believe in what I can see. Perhaps there's a "God", but he's done nothing to show anyone that "God" exists. No monolith, no appearence, nothing. Just stories handed down through books and people. In my mind, "God" was created out of necessity, a need to have some purpose in their lives, which then turned into a method for them to control their fellow man. I have more reasoning, but that's the jist of it.

Split topic.

[LINKed up]

For myself, I have no idea whether I am a theist or an athiest. I think that there might be something out there helping us along the way, but I agree with Raven, seeing is believing.

[nonjon]

If you want Dr. Nonjon's abbreviated guide to life on these two connected issues it is this:

I'm pretty middle of the road like a great many others on believing in God. When asked, I've found the most true answer for me is to say that right now, at this point in my life, I don't need to believe in God. If you want to believe, more power to you. If you're convinced there is nothing, more power to you too. When I'm on my deathbed or in some dangerous trying experience, there may come a point where I find myself looking for guidance in the form of a higher power, but right now I don't need to believe in one. And so I don't. Because I know if I ever do believe in one, it will be an understanding one who will forgive my lack of faith up until that point.

As for an afterlife, I like to think there's something more but I'm not certain. Nor am I certain there isn't anything after death. It's a possibility though.

And that uncertainty is where I find the meaning of life: It's better than the alternative. That's all you need to know. Why are we here? Why do we exist? What is the meaning of life? It's better than the alternative.

Life exists. On what we all know and call the mortal plain. Is there karma, rebirth, life after death, heaven, hell, and purgatory awaiting us? Maybe. But this life is real, it's a certainty. And that's why it's better than the alternative.