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2nd amendment / gun discussion thread: Keep it in here

Discussion in 'Politics' started by LogrusMage, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    Especially since public comments usually aren't going to be anywhere near as carefully worded and considered as the written-out opinion.
     
  2. Banta

    Banta The Chosen One DLP Supporter

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    DC Circuit Court of Appeals struck down a law restricting concealed carry.

    The important bit:

    I expect this case, or one like it, will hit SCOTUS at some point.
     
  3. Agayek

    Agayek The Chosen One

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    It wouldn't surprise me if it does, but at the same time, I wouldn't expect SCOTUS to rule any differently than the district court. From a legal standpoint, the case is very strong against barriers to constitutional rights. Requiring people to justify their exercising a right is, by legal precedent, the same thing as denying them that right, so I really don't see the ruling being overturned any time soon.
     
  4. Banta

    Banta The Chosen One DLP Supporter

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    What I find interesting (and scary as balls) is that the DC Circuit has paid attention to some of the footnote 9 cases in Heller that said that restrictions to concealed carry are okay so long as open carry is legal and unrestricted. If this kind of case hits SCOTUS with that kind of reasoning...
     
  5. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 Prestige

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    From my reading of the constitutional amendment and the way it has played out in the courts, states will have one of two options; either they choose to let people open carry, or they choose to let people carry concealed. They can't ban both.

    Now, my hope is this does to SCOTUS who then uses it to strike down "may issue," leaving only "shall issue." The only remaining hindrance restraining 2A rights then would be the stupid lack of reciprocity across all fifty states, but there's bill in the house and senate to change that. Here's hoping they pass before the next election cycle.
     
  6. AaronD

    AaronD Squib

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    I read the first few post on this thread. God, why are people so fucking stupid? What the fuck is an "Assault Rifle"? According to Google it's: "a rapid-fire, magazine-fed automatic rifle designed for infantry use". By "rapid-fire", I'll assume they mean fully-automatic. For people that do not understand this, a fully-automatic weapon is a weapon in which you can hold the trigger down and the gun will continue to fire until it runs out of ammunition. A semi-automatic weapon mean 1 trigger-pull = 1 shot fire. Fully Automatic weapons require a special license in the United States.

    What the conversation is really centered around is semi-automatic rifles. These weapons can be used for hunting, but most of them are used simply for the enjoyment of going out and shooting. These weapons are not really meant for hunting, it's resistance to "government tyranny". Is the tyranny that most people imagine when they think of that word likely? No. Is it possible? History shows that it is.

    The present time shows us that semi-automatic rifles are in no way needed to kill a bunch of people. On the same day that the Sandy Hook school shooting occurred, a man in China stabbed 22 people to death. Most of the deadliest shootings did not even occur in the United States.

    Additionally, the united states does not have a "gun problem". It has a suicide + crime problem. 60% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S are suicides. Another 17% are justified shootings, and the majority of the actual gun-related crime occurs in 7 democrat-run cities that have some of the toughest gun control laws in the united states.
     
  7. Blinker

    Blinker DA Member DLP Supporter

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    I can't imagine anyone saying you need a gun to kill lots of people, but it sure does make it easier. In the UK we've had a couple of attacks recently using blades, where the death toll would likely have been higher if they could have picked up a firearm easily.

    On suicides it's a similar issue, there's a strong link between the success of suicide attempts and (unsurprisingly) access to highly lethal means of suicide. I'm just going to put this quote. “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

    Both of these points are essentially the same, some people (criminals and the suicidal) who have mindsets that you hopefully don't share find it a lot easier to do something bad if they have easy access to guns. Perhaps you don't believe this is true, perhaps you think it isn't significant enough to matter, but it seems a point at least worth acknowledging. "the united states does not have a "gun problem". It has a suicide + crime problem" seems pretty disingenuous to me.
     
  8. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    The US doesn't have a gun problem, eh? More people die every year in the US from guns than from car accidents, more than 30 thousand a year. If 60% are suicides and 17% are justifiable (a statistic I don't accept, but I'll humor you), then 23% are murders. So 83% are unnecessary deaths caused at least in part by easy access to firearms.

    Plenty of other countries have just as many people per capita who are depressed or who commit crimes, but we don't see thousands of deaths. We absolutely have a gun problem in the United States.

    Saying that the majority of such crimes happen in cities where there are very strict laws is disingenuous in the extreme, because we all know that criminals just buy their guns in states where the laws are lax. Besides, the number in absolute terms might be higher, but given how much larger the populations are than rural places, the number as a share of the population is usually much lower.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
  9. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 Prestige

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    No, we don't all know that. First, it is illegal to buy firearms in state where you are not a resident. So the gun sales that are happening across state lines are also illegal gun sales. Second, and more importantly, inner-city crime is driven by the drug trade, and the guns are coming from Mexico along with the heroin and other drugs. Mexican cartels get a significant portion of their guns from the American government. Those guns are shipped to Mexican police forces or the military, and then get dumped on the black market. Hell, the largest and most powerful drug cartel in Mexico as of a couple of years ago was made up of 30 ex Mexican special forces solders, and the Zetas control several gangs in the US. And yes, I personal know someone who ran truckloads of guns from Mexico into the US before that person turned their life around (and is now past the statute of limitations).

    The issue isn't lax gun laws. The issue is criminals acting like criminals.
     
  10. Joe

    Joe The Reminiscent Exile Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Oh, are we gearing up for another round, @Joe's Nemesis? It's been too long!

    It's a little from Column A and Column B, right?

    I mean criminal acts can be defined rather simply: Crime = motivation + opportunity + capability

    The sheer availability of firearms in the US, at least one for every man, woman, and child, certainly presents capability for the disingenuous to be so. No other first world nation on the planet has issues with firearm related deaths like the US, whether crime/suicide/justified. It's simply absurd, laughable if it weren't so grim. We can compare populations, of course, and even allow inner city violence as uniquely US in this instance, but even then you're still something like... 11 times higher than the next cowboys. I mean, in that data the only country beating you in gun deaths per 100,000 is Afghanistan.

    The black market, you say. OK, but let's be honest, it doesn't take much to acquire a gun legally in the United States either. So you have a deluge of legal firearms flowing into illegal channels. The bathroom is flooded, you're trying to mop up the spill, but at the same time refusing to turn off the faucet. Why?
     
  11. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Yes, we do. Straw purchasing and private sales, which by current statute are legally purchased guns, are then trafficked into high-regulation states are methods we all know are used to circumvent gun regulations.

    Using my current state of New York as an example, six out of seven guns (that's 86%) used in crimes in New York State were obtained out-of-state.

    Can't get a gun in New York? Don't worry, just get your homies in Virginia to buy it for you as a "gift".

    How nice, the company you keep.

    No, the issue is that criminals can legally take advantage of lax gun laws. So the problem is the lax gun laws.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  12. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 Prestige

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    It seems I'm quite a bit more tolerant of people who made mistakes in their past life and then turned it around. Funny, seeing as I'm considered so intolerant being a conservative. Par for the course, actually, considering your other posts about fairy-tale religions and the like.
     
  13. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I'm intolerant of criminals; after all, it's my job to put them in prison.
     
  14. Oz

    Oz Heir to Hogwarts Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Getting shitfaced and impulse buying a thousand dollar food mixer is a mistake.

    Dozing at the wheel and driving into a ditch is a mistake.

    Forgetting to carry the one is a mistake.

    Smuggling truckloads of guns over a national border is a little bit more than a mistake, it's a god damn career lmao.
     
  15. tikkier2000

    tikkier2000 First Year

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    I thought other members already clarified this, but flooding legal markets makes it much easier for illegal ones to find firearms. The fact that there are more guns out there makes it easier in general. If you're a criminal that's, say, trafficking drugs or firearms across the border, I don't think you care much about the Glock in your back pocket being legal. So the legality of out-of-state guns sales doesn't affect gun deaths all that much. And while people can obviously be imprisoned on gun charges, often they're treated as secondary unless they're needed for a warrant or to simply get someone off the street.

    You're right, inner-city crime is largely driven by drug trade, but you don't see anything productive being done about that, do you? And until someone addresses NAFTA and it's idiocy, I don't see much changing. Also, no. America has plenty of our own guns. I highly doubt that the guns are coming from Mexico, or not a significant number. If you have evidence to back that up, I'd want to see it.

    Again, that wasn't the point of gun-control. It's not about imprisoning more criminals, it's about bringing gun deaths down. You're missing the entire goal of the regulation. I, personally, am not in favor of strict laws prohibiting most firearms, but I will readily admit that the way we handle it now is inefficient, dangerous, and ignorant. If we want to bring down gun deaths, that means we need to address mental health and the drug epidemic/gang violence in big ways. Which, if I'm being honest, are being pushed under the rug, especially mental health. We're playing damage control in many respects.

    I believe I had this conversation on another political thread on DLP, but the way you phrase that sentence leads me to assume you have a hard-line stance on criminals. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) "Criminals acting like criminals" is an awfully imprecise approach to criminality and it's motivators, circumstances, and effects. I recommend the book Life After Murder for an entry point into nuance.

    I think it's more than just lax gun laws. Not only that, but it's naive to not address criminality. Both are large factors in how many gun deaths the United States has. (I'm going to exclude suicide because, while very important, mental health is its own category and probably deserves its own thread.)

    If I live in a high crime neighborhood or city, I'm going to be pressured into committing crimes, right? Well, guns are used as tools to assert dominance and make my crime pay better. Yes, we have to address our current gun laws, I'm not saying we shouldn't. But should we ignore the root of the problem entirely? The seems selectively blind, if you ask me.
     
  16. Nazgus

    Nazgus Death Eater

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    In midterm season so can't look it up right now, but I know for a fact that the majority of the guns seized by the Mexican government (over 60% for sure) were actually traced back to stores in the US. So the flow of drugs may be from Mexico into the US, but the flow of guns goes the other way.
     
  17. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I'm not ignoring that. What I'm saying is that criminality will always exist, and that while I think we could definitely do more if we had more money and people, law enforcement is already something that we as a society are doing.

    And what I'm also saying is that we live in a society that is not only permissive of rampant gun violence, but one that practically encourages it with how pervasive firearms are. If I am honest, I will not say that all guns must go; the Second Amendment exists, and law abiding citizens have a right to defend themselves. But we have too many guns. We have too many overpowered guns. We have too many people who shouldn't have guns having guns. We have too many mentally ill or potentially violent or suicidal people with guns.

    I'm in law enforcement, I'm around guns every day; I'm not some New Yorker reading, cappuccino drinking idiot who's never even touched one. But the public has too easy an access to them, illegal AND legal. And because those people have access to a tool whose ONLY purpose is to kill, people are dying. We have an obligation to do better.
     
  18. tikkier2000

    tikkier2000 First Year

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    We do have an obligation, especially when it's completely within our grasp to do so. I guess what I'm getting at is that a free society will always have inherent risk, and what I don't want to see is people giving away their rights out of fear. Yes, that's unlikely, but history should teach us lessons, not repeat itself. I just... I'm wary. And maybe that's bad, maybe that's my paranoia talking for me, but I can't bring myself to just throw my support behind anything that comes up. We need regulation, but we need it done right, and honestly? I don't have a clue who can be trusted to do it right.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  19. Download

    Download Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    You're presuming those 60% of people wouldn't have killed themselves without access to firearms. That's quite clearly fallacious.
     
  20. Psychotic Cat

    Psychotic Cat Order Member

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    Not really.

    Generally speaking, suicide isn't a choice people rationally arrive at while sound of mind. But this is the gun thread, not the euthanasia thread, so for the sake of not going off topic we'll set that debate aside and focus on what people typically think of as suicide, which is generally a result of mental illness.

    To share a quote from a man that attempted suicide by jumping off of the Golden Gate Bridge that I first heard at least decade ago that's stuck with me

    It's a good article on the bridge and people jumping off of it, to share another quote.
    Attempting suicide once doesn't neccecarily mean a person is going to die, people come close, even make the attempt only to go on and turn their lives around. (

    Of course, if the method they use on that first attempt is sucking down some lead, it's a different story.

    Guns kill people, that's the point, they literally have one job and if they didn't do it well we wouldn't have this thread because people wouldn't waste money producing them. They do it quickly, reliably, and easily.

    Give a suicidal person access to a gun and they have no need to spend time tying a noose, starting your car in a closed garage or finding something tall to jump off of and no chance to take it back and call for help like swallowing pills or cutting themselves. All it takes is a moment of weakness that lasts long enough to put it in their mouth and squeeze and they're dead

    So I think we should be able to agree that access to a quick, easy, painless and nigh-guaranteed method of suicide probably does result in the deaths of people who would otherwise have lived.