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ASOIAF/GOT-AU-ToJ Divergence

Discussion in 'Other Fandoms Discussion' started by Miggy27, Jul 2, 2016.

  1. Miggy27

    Miggy27 Squib

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    First I want to give my take on R+L=J. I believe that Lyanna went willingly and at some point she and Rhaegar were married. Whether she continued to stay willingly after war broke out I do not know, but I could go either way.

    I think the strongest evidence for the two being married is the blanking out of the name Lyanna gave him on the season six finale, and the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower. I don't believe three members of the Kingsguard would stay to guard a pregnant mistress, even on orders from their Prince. They also did not abandon the Tower after learning of Rhaegar's death to go to Dragonstone, as they would have likely done if they viewed Lyanna and the child she carried as a mistress and a royal bastard.

    What I do not understand is the presence of only Three Kingsguard. Once they learned of the sack and the death of Rhaegar, logic dictates that they would attempt to move Lyanna to a safer location (they were close to Starfall) or atleast bring additional men to guard her. Also, why would Eddard go to the Tower with only six men, unless he knew exactly what he was going to find? I know that we all love the books and anyone on this forum critiquing the writing in ASoIF is like a JV basketball player critiquing Lebron James. I'm just saying that a change here is realistic, and this change would offer an incredibly intriguing story line from my point of view.

    I've wanted to read a story that focuses on a "Jon Snow" raised in exile by members of the Kingsguard. That, or a one in which he learns the truth of his parentage via the "Weirnet" or a loyalist who knows what took place between Rhaegar and Lyanna but for whatever reason was not present at the Tower that day. If my writing skills were not so awful I would attempt to write the story myself. I've never written fiction, I struggle with writing dialogue, and my ability to describe the physical characteristics of a person or setting is piss poor. I've attempted to start a story that revolves around the Kingsguard raising Jon Snow in Essos but the aforementioned weaknesses in my writing made me laugh at the quality of the fic.

    Anyways, does anyone else agree that this potential plot divergence is worth pursuing?
     
  2. Puzzled

    Puzzled Professor

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    What You're Risking Your Life For is basically that already.

    As for the Kingsguard, the Tower of Joy was in Dorne, the same kingdom Rhaegar's wife was from. The lords there would probably be more inclined to take Lyanna into 'protective custody' than to assist him.

    Eddard's small force can be explained by Dorne having not surrendered yet, his small group could go where an army couldn't.

    Lastly, no matter what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna it led directly to the deaths of Jon's grandfather and uncle. The Targaryens weren't very popular for a very good reason, they were all seen as crazy. Jon would need a very good reason to bother siding with them against the man who raised him and his siblings.
     
  3. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

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    Your belief, Rhaegar's and Lyanna's included, in this is irrelevant.

    Polygamy was only allowed/practiced by Aegon the Conqueror with his sister-wives. When Aegon's son, Maegor (the Cool), did that, and this was while Aegon was still very much alive, he got exiled from Westeros for it.

    So while Rhaegar and Lyanna may believe they were married, chances are very small that anyone else (barring Rhaegar's friends and regular lickspittles) would have seen that as a legitimate marriage.

    The show is fanfiction at this point. Sure, they know some stuff from what GRRM told them, but overall, it's D&D's own shitty fanfiction being adapted to the screen. So keep that in mind when you think something from the show might be part of actual canon.

    Except that's completely wrong. They're sworn to obey the king. Rhaegar wasn't the king, yet they followed him as if he was, even when Aerys was alive. So it's not much of a stretch that they'd follow his commands, regardless of legitimacy.

    Their beliefs are completely irrelevant. You can believe whatever you want, but that does not make it a fact.
     
  4. CheddarTrek

    CheddarTrek Set Phasers to Melt Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I've always guessed that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. Granted I did guess the whole thing about Jon's parentage before I read the theories online, probably back around 2009 when I initially read the first four books.

    Robert just seemed to me... too obsessed. I don't recall any hints from Ned or anyone else that Lyanna gave a rat's ass for Robert. Maybe something between them sort of started at that Tournament when Rhaegar honored her... but because Rhaegar was married, and Lyanna was promised to Robert, there was no way in hell she was going to pursue it.

    Or whatever. But yeah, my money has always been on Lyanna going willingly because Rhaegar said something to convince her that it mattered. For the future of Westeros. Or something.
     
  5. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

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    I don't have an issue in imagining that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar (at first).

    I mean, she was a 14-15 year old girl, whereas Rhaegar was in his mid 20s. It's not all that hard to imagine him basically talking her into doing all of that, for all that it made her a hypocrite to elope with a married man while she criticized Robert for pre-marital sex with other people.

    However, I do take issue in how often the ASOIAF fandom chooses to portray Lyanna as this weird, often enough near sociopathic character who barely gives a rat's ass that her actions led to the death of her father and brother.

    Also, in regards to that comment about Robert being obsessed - this is something that Droman/Hashasheen pointed out - that's utter nonsense. Because he was willing to wait for her to fully mature and grow up before taking her as his wife, when he could have very well done so at any time before that (within reasonable limits for Westerosi society, of course).
     
  6. CheddarTrek

    CheddarTrek Set Phasers to Melt Moderator DLP Supporter

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    In my mind... Lyanna is like Arya. And while I can't see Arya eloping with someone because of juvenile infatuation or naivety, I could see her being convinced by some combination of prophecy, greenseers, and other magic bullshit.

    Run off with a crush who sweet talked her? no.

    Run off because "Winter is Coming" in a literal, world-ending sense and the only way to make sure the world survives is to pop off with Rhaegar to get pregnant with the Prince-Who-Was-Promised? Yeah, I could Arya saying 'fuck it, let's go.' Especially if there was a reason to actually believe it, and the Starks are traditionally susceptible to magic bullshit, so... maybe. Just maybe.
     
  7. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

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    The trouble here is how exactly does one go about proving that.

    Rhaegar has literally no proof of the impending Otherpocalypse, other than vague ramblings of his mad ancestors.

    Also, from where are you getting that "Starks are traditionally susceptible to magic bullshit" bit?
     
  8. Xantam

    Xantam Denarii Host

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    While I'm not convinced one way or the other, it wouldn't be out of character for Bloodraven to spur Lyanna on with a few choice words from her gods.
     
  9. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

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    I wasn't aware Lyanna Stark had the potential to be/was a greenseer.

    Or are people now thinking Bloodraven just randomly drops in on everyone?
     
  10. Longsword

    Longsword Second Year

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    When ever I feel that some theory develops which is absurd, yet it no longer sticks out that much (because it has been repeated so many times), I try to put it into dialogue.
    Imagine the dialogue for the scenario above. It would be hilarious and feel like a shit fic on AO3. So the only possible scenario is one in which Lyanna's infatuation went into a direction which she had not anticipated.

    As for Arya : I do not see why readers compare the two. The characters in the setting do because of their looks and wish to train at arms, but the readers have no great reason to.
     
  11. Cxjenious

    Cxjenious Supreme Mugwump

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    You just gave the reason why readers compare them.
     
  12. Longsword

    Longsword Second Year

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    That hardly makes a character what it is. Arya's arc has taken her in a direction where her reason to fight is no longer a side passion or a gimmick.
    Lyanna, whatever else she may have been, ran away with a man she barely knew (if at all). That is Sansa like behaviour in a direction diametrically opposite to Arya's.
     
  13. Darksnider05

    Darksnider05 Squib

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    Most people do not read very much into Arya's character or her motivations. You normally get stab stab stab "stick em with the pointy end". Instead of I have human empathy these assholes don't, someone should stop them. Many chapters later of watching no one stop said assholes and a burning hatred for people like them northern or southern.

    Arya also in the books, was not a failure at being a Lady she just couldn't do the superficial parts very well and was eight at the start. So no don't go into the fandom expecting good portrayals of Arya and her aunt who she is somehow like who we have zero P.o.V chapters from.
     
  14. CheddarTrek

    CheddarTrek Set Phasers to Melt Moderator DLP Supporter

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    You wait for a chapter from GRRM where Bran 'sees' it or get Jon out to talk to Howland Reed.

    That we know of.

    Because several of the characters in the series who are associated with magic of some kind, from Bran the Builder to current Bran, are Starks. We have more evidence of Starks fucking about with magic of some kind than we do Baratheons or Lannisters.

    It does not mean that Lyanna had any ability whatsoever with magic.

    You lot all seem to be thinking that I'm proposing this as "probably what happened" when I'm not. I said "In my mind..." which I meant to imply it's how I imagine things to be, and expect them to turn out, but I'm not offering up any proof because I'm not trying to convince anyone. I don't think (unless I've missed it) that there's enough evidence to say anything with authority about the whole situation.

    My point boils down to this: I think it's more likely that Rhaegar convinced Lyanna of a prophecy and got her help than that he kidnapped and raped her. Maybe he convinced her after kidnapping, but I think it makes more narrative sense for him to have had her cooperation at some point.

    There's absolutely no evidence for either. But since we don't know there's also no reason to assume she just had a crush and ran off and/or got kidnapped.

    The characters in the series compare the two because the author chose to have them compare the two. So that's why everyone else does it. I think it's a valid comparison until the author deliberately shows us its not.

    Which is... sort of my point. If Lyanna wasn't like Sansa, wasn't the sort to do that, then it therefore makes more sense to me that she had a reason and we just don't know about it yet.

    But I suppose I should again say that this is just how I expect things to turn out, not something I have evidence for.

    For comparisons sake, it's like how I expected Harry Potter to grow up to be a badass after GoF. I expected OotP to be a LOT different than what we got. The series itself didn't give me any reason to expect that Harry would grow to be a wizard of Dumbledore's caliber, but I expected it. I was wrong.

    I might be wrong here too, but it doesn't change that it's what I'm expecting because it 'feels' right. It's also possible that I've forgotten details from the books, given that I wasn't really that into them either time I read through.

    If we want to argue with evidence we probably need a scene with Howland Reed. Or possibly Bran traveling with his hax!abilities.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
  15. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

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    But we're not talking about those kinds of circumstances.

    We're talking about how Rhaegar could have proven that to Lyanna.

    That's a cop-out excuse and you know it.

    So basically stuff that falls into mythological folklore.

    I mean, you do remember that the Durrandons, who later became Baratheons, were supposedly a bloodline that was wed to a goddess, right? Doesn't get more magical than that.

    Why is that more likely? He's a Targaryen. It's far more likely that he's infected with madness rather than any notion of greatness. Madness doesn't have to come in the same form as it did for his father. The point here is that barring a quick Littlefinger/Varys teleport trick to the Lands of Always Winter and back to Harrenhal, he literally could not have had any proof with which to convince Lyanna Stark of the existence of Others.

    Why not? It's far more likely that an underage girl could get charmed by an older man, who's already somewhat famous across the whole of the seven kingdoms and desired by many women, and run away with him without thinking about the consequences, than for her to believe her about the existence of mythological beings whose last known appearance was over 8000 years ago, in times that were barely documented anywhere.
     
  16. CheddarTrek

    CheddarTrek Set Phasers to Melt Moderator DLP Supporter

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    It's not, actually, because that WAS what I was talking about. That's where the entire convo got off the rails, actually, because I was talking about one thing and the rest of you another.

    I don't know that responding to the rest of this is worth the effort - you make good points, but nothing remotely changes my mind? And I think given my previous paragraph it's a moot point anyway.
     
  17. Cxjenious

    Cxjenious Supreme Mugwump

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    So? I didn't say "that makes a character what it is." i said that's why readers compare them. Because the characters do.
     
  18. Miggy27

    Miggy27 Squib

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    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaegar_Targaryen-


    In either 280 AC or 281 AC,[25] Lord Walter Whent announced a tourney would be held at Harrenhal to rival any previous tournament. It is believed by some that the tourney was secretly arranged and financed by Prince Rhaegar, as a pretext, so Rhaegar could meet up with the great lords of the realm to discuss arranging a Great Council and the removal of his father.

    While King Robert I Baratheon despises Rhaegar and accuses him of having raped Lyanna Stark, the only thought of Eddard Stark, Lyanna's brother, that is mentioned in the books is that Eddard did not think Rhaegar frequented brothels. This is the textual evidence that suggests it is not likely that Lyanna was abducted. If she had been forced to leave with Rhaegar then I think we would have gotten more negative thoughts on his character from Eddard.

    My thoughts on Rhaegar's decision making-To runoff with bethrothed of a Lord Paramount when the realm was on the verge of civil war...it can't be justified. He should have had his father poisoned or convinced one of the Kingsguard loyal to him to kill the man once the Great Council he envisioned was no longer an option.

    When he learned that the father and brother of his "great love" Lyanna had been killed by the Mad King, he should have found a way to kill him. He could have greatly strained the alliance amongst the rebelling lords by offering to pardon them, and publicly proclaiming Lyanna's as having been willing participant in their ill advised romantic getaway (lol).

    Regarding Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy;it could be argued that Rhaegar had prophetic dreams about the Long Night. It would not be the first time a member of his family had prophetic dreams regarding an apocalyptic event. When Daenys the Dreamer was still a maiden[2] she had a powerful prophetic dream, depicting the destruction of Valyria. Her father, Lord Aenar, decided due to her vision to move his family and all of their belongings to Dragonstone, an island close to Westeros. If Rhaegar did have dreams of this nature, he was really fucking stupid with regards to how he prepared his House and the realm for the eventual threat..



    I'm a fan of Jon Snow's story as it is written, but I also think it could be really interesting if he was raised to think of himself as Rhaegar's last living heir, and that this plot divergence is plausible within the ASoIaF world. Regarding Odran's point on polygamy and how the realm would view "Jon Snow"-
    I do not really care if the majority of the realm would have considered Jon to be a bastard. If the Kingsguard had raised him in secret, they would have raised him to think of himself as Rhaegar's heir. The development of Jon's personality would be very different if he grew up being treated as the heir to a prince who loved his mother as opposed to the unwanted bastard of a Lord who refuses to speak about his mother.


    I'd like a story that only uses a plot divergence, not one in which character's are butchered to support a "ship" or plot. Almost all of the Jon Snow in exile stories butcher many character's personality. So many of them have Varys as a loyal supporter to Rhaegar's children but he was instrumental in preventing him from removing his father from power. Ser Barristan is known to have said that the rot in Aerys reign began with the arrival of the eunch..

    Anyways, here are some interesting potential ToJ divergences-




    1 Lyanna gives birth, dies, and is then cremated before her brother finds her. The Kingsguard flees to Starfall, where they decide to proclaim Jon as their King. What would Lord Stark do if he found himself fighting a war to kill his own nephew?? Interesting to think about a civil war within a civil war..

    2 The Kingsguard has a few additional men-at-arms from Starfall. (If they can bring a wetnurse they can secure one or two men). Lord Stark dies. Ser Arthur is the only survivor of the battle. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8454522/1/The-Better-Sword is an example of this scenario..but it's abandoned..and there are issues I have with how the author writes out this scenario...

    3) Jon Snow has the coloring of his mother but the face of his father. It becomes obvious as he ages that he is the son of Rhaegar as opposed to Eddard's bastard. Would be interesting to see Catelyn come to realize that Jon Snow can only be Rhaegar's son. Maybe she overhears a servant say "I've never seen a boy so pretty as that one. He makes my own daughter seem plain. It's almost unnatural!" Plausible because many children take on the coloring of one of their parents but the facial and body structure of the other.

    4)The wetnurse they have in the ToJ falls ill and dies during the last month of Lyanna's pregnancy. Ser Arthur is forced to leave for Starfall to secure another midwife. Ashara Dayne, feeling restless and depressed due to the stillbirth of her daughter attempts to convince Arthur to bring her so that she might keep Lyanna company during the final month of her pregnancy. He forbids her from doing this. She waits for him to leave then follows him with a few loyal men from Starfall. Lyanna still dies after giving birth, but she makes Ashara and Arthur promise her to protect her son, even from the other Kingsguard who wish to proclaim him King. She might beg them to allow her son the chance to make js own choices as a man. Ashara manages to convince Ser Arthur that Rhaegar would have wanted his son to be safe above all, and so with the help of the Starfall men they subdue Whent and Hightower and flee to Essos. Hah this scenario is the least plausible of the many I have in mind but it is fun to think about.

    5) A loyal squire to Gerold Hightower lives post ToJ. The squire had been ordered to Starfall to get additional supplies. He falls ill (snakebite, fever). He is present in Starfall when Ser Arthur's sword is returned. He realizes that the only living heir to Rhaegar is being raised as as another man's bastard and swears to inform the boy of the truth at some point in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  19. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

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    What the hell does that have to do with anything?

    He would still be a bastard, regardless of what he was raised to believe by Rhaegar's butt-buddies.

    What? Jon would have been an infant. He wouldn't be fighting shit.

    Not to mention, proclaiming Jon as King, while in Dorne, is pretty much asking for a death sentence.
     
  20. Miggy27

    Miggy27 Squib

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    Obviously he wouldn't be fighting shit. You point out that the Kingsguard are fanatical in their devotion to whomever they consider King...but can't imagine them declaring Rhaegar's last living son their King? They would be in Starfall, and relatively safe from any Dornish Lords..

    The fallout from declaring the infant boy to be their King would be larger than you admit. Robert would want the boy dead, obviously. The Tyrells and the Dornish might consider fighting on his behalf, especially if his existence was enough to break the alliance that won Robert's Rebellion. Eddard Stark would not agree to fight a war that would lead to his nephew's death.. and while the Dornish might not support a bastard born from a lover that shamed Elia, they also might support him if they thought it would give them a chance at vengeance... Even if the Kingsguard realized that they would not have enough support to win the war, and were thus forced to flee Westoros, the Stark/Tully/Baratheon alliance would likely end with the boys existence being made public.

    The plot divergence is interesting for me because of the ripple effects it could have on Westoros as a whole and also for Jon's development as an individual. If Rhaegar's sycophants thought of the boy as not being bastard born, he wouldn't grow up thinking of himself that way.That is what I meant when I said that I did not care whether the realm at large would consider him bastard born. So much of Jon's personality is related to thinking of himself as an unwanted bastard. While he might be just as depressed thinking of himself as a boy whose birth caused a war, the change would be profound. The sycophantic nature of the Kingsguard might also cause them to place the blame of the rebellion on Brandon Stark. They would say that if he had not rode to the Red Keep and shouted for Rhaegar to come out and die, the rebellion would not have started. Perhaps they would argue that if Rhaegar had more time, he would have been able to remove his father from power.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016