Can you apparate or make a portkey to a location you see via legilimency or pensieve memory?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Reiku, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. Reiku

    Reiku Second Year

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    So how can you apparate to somewhere you've never seen before but still know the location?
     
  2. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Because there's a lot more to a thing than what it looks like? All you need to do is focus on the location. The name of the location seems adequate to me. The key is the focus element, so as to avoid any lack of certainty/indecision which could cause you to splinch.
     
  3. Reiku

    Reiku Second Year

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    So if someone wanted to apparate to France for example, would just focusing on France be enough to apparate there, or would he need a city specifically, or a street or how general or accurate must it be?
     
  4. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    I actually believe that would work. But of course you'd end up horribly splinched, and if most of yourself was atop Mont Blanc in 4,800m heights and only your eyebrows in Paris, you probably should feel lucky.

    Edit: And actually, Twycross is quite clear:

    "‘Step one: fix your mind firmly upon the desired destination,’ said Twycross. ‘In this case, the interior of your hoop. Kindly concentrate upon that destination now.’

    [...] ‘Step two,’ said Twycross, ‘focus your determination to occupy the visualised space!’"

    You can't exactly focus on occupying all of France. So either it doesn't work, or you splinch yourself. However, you can focus on occupying a street in Paris, even if you've never been there -- or in Godric's Hollow.

    And I'd be entirely happy to agree that it works much better if you've been there and can properly 'visualise it'. If you have trouble with Apparating already, you probably should only go to places you already know. And to that end, looking at a Pensieve memory might conceivably help, yes.
     
  5. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    To finally address the topic of the thread itself, I see no reason that you could not apparate to a location that you viewed in a pensieve or through legilimancy. What rule says that an imitation cannot match the original(ha)? Do you think that Harry could replicate the court scene by using his memory of Dumbledore's memory?

    If knowing about a place is enough to apparate to it such as the Godric's Hollow example @Sataniel referenced earlier, then having a clear image of a specific place should be more than enough. In fact, pensieves are able to extract the very essence or truth of a memory more reliably than mere mortal memory, so if anything it'd be easier to apparate to a place you've seen in a pensieve than even one you are retrieving from your own memories.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  6. Reiku

    Reiku Second Year

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    Alright thank you everyone for helping me clear this up. The concensus seems to be yes, which is what I was hoping but not expecting.
     
  7. GreatRedDragon

    GreatRedDragon Banned

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    But it doesn't, not from every source of heat at least, because we know for a fact that Fiendfyre isn't affected by said charm. Also, just because you can do something relative to your own universes' strength, does not automatically mean that you are unbeatable in other universes, it's an argument from ignorance. It's like saying that if my Kevlar Vest works against a .22 it will obviously work against every other round too.

    Of course, only in one direction, and it doesn't block the Unforgivable Curses, and possibly some other spells as Voldemort decided to use a Conjured shield instead during the Battle in OOTP

    But seen by Magical Eyes?

    There are always exceptions to the rule with HP Magic, even the Deathly Hallows had limitations.

    Not at all, a Wizard is only capable of casting as long as they're capable of consciously stating the spell in their mind, but even that takes time.

    Why debate when all you use is headcanon as your arguments?
     
  8. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    You'll note in every one of your examples, it is not mundane nature overcoming magical nature, but magic nullifying magic. Fiendfyre is explicitly not normal fire, it is cursed, magical fire. The shield charm defends you from harm, except when other magic supersedes it. The invisibility cloak makes you invisible against detection, but magic can bypass it. I still think that allowing Moody to see Harry with his eye was a bit of a cock up on Rowling's part given that it's one of the Hallows, but that is hardly the biggest plot hole in canon.

    A wizard is only able to prevent harm if he's taken actions to prevent that harm? Brilliant counterpoint. Sure, Dumbledore could be speed ganked in various universes if he didn't know that speed ganking was something he needed to defend against.

    As for headcanon, I didn't pull the mechanics of HP magic out of my ass. We've had this debate once or twice in the last decade. Here's a thought experiment for you as regards the explosion example. Could a shield charm defend you against a firecracker? If yes, could it defend you against a stick of dynamite? If yes, could it then defend you against a missile? Where do you draw the line, and why? HP magic doesn't consume mana and the shield doesn't have hit points, it's a magical construct that trumps mundane nature. The difference between a firecracker and a missile is qualitatively no different from the difference between a match and a bunsen burner. It's a question of scale, when magic is only overcome by a difference in nature/type.
     
  9. Sataniel

    Sataniel Groundskeeper

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    I have to partially retract my previous statement.

    https://www.jkrowling.com/welcome-to-my-new-website/

    So visualising a place where you want to go is an option.
     
  10. Reiku

    Reiku Second Year

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    "Knowledge of the terrain" is kind of vague, but "the ability to visualize it clearly" is much easier to work with.

    Also,
    The accio apparently summons objects at near light speed?
     
  11. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Or at any other fast speed. Rowling has no idea about physics or maths, and HP magic doesn't care. So, I read that symbolically, as "super fast, really". The more interesting part is that it describes what happens when you summon someone's clothes, which was a topic of debate. Nice.

    (Though, it canonises that summon-his-robes-in-a-duel thing, which is kinda cliché, so bleh.)
     
  12. Reiku

    Reiku Second Year

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    But if you wanted to displace someone's footing or position in a duel, wouldn't mobilicorpus do the same thing? Same thing when trying to save someone who was falling off a cliff. Is summoning their clothes the best method?
     
  13. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    I have no idea. I just remembered it was a fairly common thing -- one of those "hey let's show how clever Harry is by doing This Thing No One Thought Of Before"-items.
     
  14. GreatRedDragon

    GreatRedDragon Banned

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    No feats suggesting it can, therefore it can't.

    Hundreds of thousands of tons of force seems like a pretty easy line to draw, especially when we haven't seen the shield tank anything close to that.
     
  15. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    PSA: This is not going to be Wizards vs. Muggles. We have a thread for that. Move it there, if you feel you need to discuss this.
     
  16. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

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    I'd say "Yes" in regard to apparition.

    Rowling said Newt traveled to New York by boat, not only because tricking the No-Maj checkpoints were much easier than tricking wizarding checkpoints, but also because apparition require knowledge and familiarity with the terrain and surroundings of the area to which they were trying to apparate. How you obtained that knowledge and/or familiarity with a specific area seem unimportant to me.
     
  17. Reiku

    Reiku Second Year

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    That makes sense. Any idea how portkeys are made?
     
  18. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Was having a convo with a friend about this very topic today, and I remembered something. The Taboo allowed for the snatchers to apparate directly to the people who said Voldemort's name. They can't have known the exact terrain or visualized it unless the Taboo comes with a projector that gives them a view of the area, so there must be much more flexible rules regarding what "visualizing a location" means.
     
  19. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    To be clear, the JKR quote says "knowledge of the terrain" OR "visualising the location", not both. The former is rather vague but from the Godric's Hollow apparition, as well as the Taboo one, it seems to be a reference to knowing where a place is (i.e. can you name it and put it on a map?).
     
  20. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Hm. I would have interpretated this (terrain) literally, actually -- knowledge whether you'll end up on a meadow or in a forest. And the reason for that might even be factual, because you need some space to appear, anyway.

    If we go by the (reasonable?) assumption that Apparition works better, easier and more safely w.r.t splinching etc. if you know the place you want to go by heart (or can see it, re: training in the Great Hall), then Apparting into the relative unknown might simply require more space, because it's a lot less precise. And hence Apparating into a dense forest might be a bad idea, because you might end up half-stuck inside a tree.

    Therefore, terrain -- you need to know if the area is clear.

    Which brings me to wonder whether you can Apparate into the empty air. Strictly it should work -- if nothing else, you can see the sky above you, hence visualise it, so nothing should prevent you from Apparating a hundred feet upwards. And then you can use Arresto Momentum to slow your fall and direct it where you want to. But I guess ultimately it's pointless, because competent wizards seem to be able to get around with Apparition wherever they want anyway. I'd say it's the backbone of Ministry Law Enforcement, for instance. When Mr. Weasley goes to fix that toilet in Bethnal Green, when Fudge appears on the Peter/Sirius scene, when Ogden and law enforcement fetch the Gaunts ... Those would all be unknown places, since they had no reason to be there before.


    As a side note, re: Pensieve, in HBP I found this:
    This gives me the impression they are literally inside the pensieve. Sounds like a fun place to hide, in case you need to, then.
     
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