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Is Harry/Tonks relationship morally wrong?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Don, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    I almost said the same thing, but it's really hard to say this without it being a joke. In canon, we see (at least) two deviances from it. Bill is 27 when fleur is 19, and lupin is like 38 when Tonks is 24/25
     
  2. Seyllian

    Seyllian Auror DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, I agree with Taure. If the characters aren't the same age and born on the exact same day there is no way they can work out for me.

    /s
     
  3. Rubicon

    Rubicon Professor DLP Supporter

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    I think focusing on the age gap as just a number misses the point. The question is about an adult in a position of authority being in a relationship with a 15-year-old.

    It's fanfiction, but if they were real people in the real world then yes that would be messed up.
     
  4. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    Gonna go read some Tonks/Harry smut and then return with my opinion.
     
  5. crimson sun06

    crimson sun06 Unspeakable

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    When done right, the moral ambiguity, the guilt etc... of the relationship can be the USP of a fic that focuses on the relationship, which was done well enough in Halfblood auror, whatever its other faults.
     
  6. methor

    methor Fourth Year

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    Don't like, don't read. :D
     
  7. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    What position of authority is Tonks in over Harry? She's not his professor, not his boss. She doesn't have any control over his life in any way. All because she is an Auror doesn't mean the position of authority clause applies. You can maybe argue that she's in a position of trust, but being friendly and being your godfather's cousin doesn't make that automatically true either.
     
  8. the pale rider

    the pale rider Squib

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    7 years isn't that much in the grand scheme of things, but I can see where you're coming from.A great many people, including myself, were a little uncomfortable when tonks went after remus in canon, seeing as the age difference is a little less seems to make it less uncomfortable but still can be quite weird.
     
  9. Donimo

    Donimo Seventh Year

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    I can't believe this is an actual argument. Someone in their mid 20's shouldn't be dating a teenager, even if it's above the age of consent its still inappropriate.
     
  10. wordhammer

    wordhammer Supreme Mugwump DLP Supporter

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    Step back from the self-righteous soap-box and explain why you feel it is 'inappropriate'. Your scenario doesn't even fall outside the legal guidelines. Who told you that it was wrong? Did they have specific, practical concerns that they explained? If not, do you have any specific, practical concerns about this?

    Also, you might take into account that the standards of today in America aren't the same as the standards today in the UK, much less matching the standards of the UK in the 1990's. Once you adjust to that, consider that the wizarding world inside a series of fantasy novels may have solutions to your concerns that weren't or aren't available in the other settings.

    They may have no risk of STDs and can control whether they get pregnant or not. They are known to have treatments that remove traumatic stress. There is no indication that anyone in the wizarding world is prone to sudden aggressive outbursts due to hormone imbalance (aside from werewolves, but that's not the scenario we're discussing). Overall, the behavior of the students as shown in the books is astonishingly calm and predictable.

    So, lay it out for us: how do you define 'inappropriate', and in what way does this scenario fulfill that definition.
     
  11. soczab

    soczab First Year

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    I mean this is all fiction so it doesnt matter a ton i suppose. But if we were supposing this is real life, then yes it would be wrong.

    For wordhammer and others. Its not about the size of the gap or worry over STDS and such. The issue is that as a teenager Harry is essentially still a kid, and Tonks is an authority figure (essentially a cop). Theres no way a real teenager is mature enough to be making that sort of decision, or that an authority figure should be seeing someone who is a teenager.

    I mean, just ask yourself in real life. Would you be ok with a cop in their mid 20s dating some kid in H.S? I doubt most of us would be. As a society we have actually decided the cop should go to jail for that. Its even worse in terms of abuse of authority in that Tonks is essentially given authority over harry with guard duty and the like. So now its like the H.S cop is caught sleeping with the H.S student.

    I suspect this is only 'ok' in part because its all fictional, and in part probably because of the stereotypes that make it more OK for a male to be sleeping with an older woman than vice versa. I suspect more people would be a lot more bothered with say, Charlie in a relationship with Hermoine while she was 15 and still in hogwarts compared to Harry with tonks.


    In any event, by any real life sensibility, im not sure anyone can say with a straight face that Harry being with tonks (an auror) while still in (essentially) Highschool is actually 'morally' ok if these were real people as opposed to fictional characters. Which is likely why for some people it is bothersome.

    And again its not about the gap in terms of pure years. Theres nothing wrong with say a 40 year old and a 50 year old dating. The issue is Harry's youth (being underage), Tonks being in a position of authority, and the gap in experience and maturity between them.
     
  12. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    This is the second time someone has brought up the (predictable) position of authority excuse, and it's still not true. Aurors aren't cops, despite what fanon would have you believe. They're the one that hunt down dark witches/wizards. Hit-wizards are the ones that solve crimes and hunt criminals. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that Tonks is literally never is in a position of authority over Harry in the story. Guarding him when he doesn't know she's there doesn't mean anything.

    Sure, the age gap is still a problem, but the maturity and experience thing isn't clear-cut either. Harry's seen a lot of shit.
     
  13. soczab

    soczab First Year

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    well I do have to disagree. Even if I took your description of an auror instead of mine (i'm not sure I agree there either, but hey a different argument) that makes them the equiv of an FBI or CIA. Either way theres still an authority issue. Its also not about the title or what they do, so much as one is an adult with a full time job and the other is a student.

    Again I cant help but ask. Are you ok with random 24 year olds sleeping with random h.s students in real life?
     
  14. Halt

    Halt 1/3 of the Note Bros.

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    This strikes me as rather pedantic. Aurors might not strictly be police, but at least you have to agree they are some sort of law enforcement agent sanctioned by the government - which was the point in soczab's post?
     
  15. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

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    His point is that Tonks is in a position of authority over Harry. But, if you actually analyze everything, instead of just looking at her job title, she really isn't. My point is that there are problems with the pairing, but the position of authority isn't one of them.
     
  16. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    The majority of Harry/Tonks fics take place starting in or following the summer between his fifth and sixth year, since it's basically the best launch point in the whole series for fics and the death of Sirius provides an impetus that suits the purpose of the pairing.

    Harry turns sixteen in July of that summer, and sixteen is the age of consent in 2/3 of the US and is also the age of consent in England. We, as western societies, have decided that somebody sixteen years of age or older can have a sexual relationship with anybody they want who is also of age(or covered by Romeo and Juliet exemptions) barring position of authority conflicts. Those conflicts are specific, and relate to the position being one in a supervisory or advisory role over the younger partner. This includes teachers, counsellors, coaches. The nebulous power of "somebody who has a position that has some authority" isn't sufficient unless they exercised that authority to coerce.

    Since we've addressed the legal avenue, one is left with the social or moral avenue. With that in mind, you have to address it on a case by case basis. The question changes from "Is a 24 year old sleeping with a 16 year old okay?" to "Is Harry in a relationship with Nymphadora okay?" It's at that point that you get into subjective character assessments, such as the relative maturity, financial situation, life experience, etc. considerations.

    Would you consider Nymphadora's life experiences and age to put her in an unequal or unfair position in a relationship with Harry? In the sense of autonomy or relationship experience in general, perhaps. As far as life experience, Harry has been subjected to experiences that many would interpret as having conferred a level of maturity not consistent with his age, or comparable to his peers. Harry is independently wealthy enough that she can't pressure or control him via her employed status.

    If she were only 20 or 21 years old, would the same objections apply? She'd still be an auror, Harry wouldn't be any more mature than he already is. And yet, I'd be willing to bet that many of those raising objections about his maturity and her position would feel it a lot less objectionable even though those variables haven't changed.

    tl;dr: Let Harry smash some hot metamorphmagus magic cop strange already.
     
  17. Crownworthy

    Crownworthy Squib

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    Sure. But then again: When has the fandom ever concerned itself with morals?
     
  18. Seyllian

    Seyllian Auror DLP Supporter

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    If Harry were a girl and Tonks a guy I doubt we would be having this conversation. One would be considered a pedophile...
     
  19. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    And that would be equally mistaken. It's one of those endemic pieces of cognitive dissonance in the public consciousness. 16 year olds are old enough to sleep with whoever they want, except that they're not, except if they're close in age, but not if they're younger, okay maybe if they're younger but not too much younger, but god forbid one of them takes a naked picture of themselves/each other!

    It's one of those things that comes down to how socially conservative you are, and how much you got to fuck around as a teenager. We can either accept it as something that will happen, and do our best to mitigate the downsides(e.g. pregnancy), or we can rail against it and harangue those who downplay it. The latter has been failing for some several thousand years now, so it's safe to say which side is winning that particular culture war.

    You could also make an argument about paternalism, double standards, downplaying of morally dubious choices by women, demonisation of men, the shaming of young women's sexuality. I'm not exactly fond of those particular causes to say the least, but there are legitimate points to be made on that front.
     
  20. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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