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Israel/Palestine Mega Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by mknote, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Hmmm, I don't think it's quite irrelevant. I think the utility of those statements was that the Palestinians, either in Gaza or the West Bank, will never be able to place trust in the Israelis so long as the Israeli state takes actions that they perceive as being targeted against their interests. Actions speak louder than words, and Israel's actions demonstrate antipathy, which leads to mistrust.

    For a parallel example, take Trump's recent action banning people from various countries entering the United States. The reason given was that it was about preventing terrorism. Agencies charged with preventing terrorism, however, pointed out that it hurt their efforts because the people they needed to talk to and gain the trust and cooperation of suddenly had a tangible reason to believe that the US government did not like them, and because they felt under threat, did not want to cooperate. They felt slighted, so they lost their ability to trust.

    It's the same sort of thing going on. So that's why it's relevant.
     
  2. Azira

    Azira High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    I was specifically referring to his Putin remark, but guess I should've quoted better.
     
  3. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    In that case, it was a valid point. Putin makes diplomatic overtures to the Ukrainians because he's well aware that Ukraine can't make the deal. So he loses nothing, and gains some sense of legitimacy.

    Gaza is the same way. Israel is well aware that Gaza can't accept their offer, so they get to get some good press and give up nothing. And then they get to say Gaza won't accept peace.

    It's pretty transparent.
     
  4. Azira

    Azira High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    No, actually, Hamas CAN accept this deal. That's the issue I have with this whole line. You are once again taking away all agency from the Palestinians. How is A) returning bodies of Israeli soldiers and 3 live Israeli citizens and B) Disarming rockets and ceasing terror tunnel operations + closing them - unreasonable and impossible requests of Hamas?
     
  5. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Lol. Of course they can't. Why would they give away their bargaining chips for intangible benefits that we all know would never appear? It would be political suicide. They're evil, sure, but they're not stupid.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  6. Azira

    Azira High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    "Intangible benefits" ? The benefits are entirely tangible, and if Hamas were willing to talk about it, can be mediated by a third party, AS HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE, thus ensuring that nobody would be giving anything away without guarantee of the things happening. Airport, Seaport, 40000 jobs.

    Ah yes, killing innocents are "bargaining chips" for you. Great :)
     
  7. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    How about... Respect the UN set boundaries? How about... Not spit on the international community face? How about don't act like a child, do shit and then go hide behind big bro US? This step is meaningless. This step would need Israel, and specially the current government, show good will and that it can be trusted by the Palestinians. Which it doesn't. Do you have any proof whatsoever that this government is willing to overlook it's interests, specially of its right wing, and take the heat from the more conservative population in exchange to help Gaza?

    Do you have any, any decision that unilaterally does that? 'Oh but they are terrorists'. Sure. Then let's take Israel and it's Military to the ICC. They don't commit crimes. The fact that they are scared shitless of it is just paranoia.

    This isn't a step. This is smoke and mirrors. This is literally meaningless. Can you prove that Israel even will respect that autonomy? Will it? I don't think so. Israel has been completely blocking even from humanitarian help for a while.

    You seem to be in this delusion that the weakest side should give up first and more, never mind that it has much more to lose. Why? Hamas giving up arms means a credible threat to its existence and to Gaza being annexed by Israel, Palestinians being ejected from their land, land taken by the Israeli government, military patrols that unilaterally act, colonies etc. Israel gives the first step and Palestine sucks a little less.

    Maybe there will be a couple of more rockets, but again, the logic of 1 Israeli civilian = 1000 Palestinians and other 1000 living in shitty conditions is in full force. So no. There no easy solution.

    Want to see a decent peace deal, see the Colombian one, the Irish one. Tough, but both sides had to give, specially the stronger sides. Because that's compromise for you.

    I like how you seem to think that anyone outside Israelis themselves think their government can be trusted in any way regarding Palestine. It can't. The international community has long since learned to treat Bibi and Company' word regarding it as bullshit. They will do anything to appease the right.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  8. gorlosh

    gorlosh DA Member

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    Killing innocents are used as bargaining chips on both sides. If not, what was the point of the diet and a host of other things?
     
  9. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    And he has been sentenced to 18 months of prison. Truly an example of the impartiality of the Israeli system. It is easy to point to the other side and say 'they are terrorists, they don't stuff like that!' when you're the one who wishes to be taken seriously and respected like a fully democratic and equal country with the rule of law.
     
  10. Azira

    Azira High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    I'm actually not sure if you're being sincere or being sarcastic.
     
  11. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    At this point, not even me.
     
  12. Azira

    Azira High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were sincere. If you're being sarcastic you're totally missing the point.
     
  13. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    Well this is interesting. Apparently Israel is full steam ahead to change their Basic Laws, basically their Constitution in practice, to declare that Israel is a Jewish State, demote Arab from an official language among other things, including forcing Israeli courts, specially their Supreme Court, to use Jewish Identify as a merit/qualifying point when formulating a ruling, like a basic right.

    It was sponsored officially by Bibi's government and it was proposed by Avi Dichter, Israel Defense Minister, member of the Likud. His comments about it are illuminating.

    I think my favorite part is how the bill assured us that all people have the right to preserve their culture and religion, in a law that says all of it is inferior. Paranoia and elevating one religion above other, glad to see Israel is seeking to be more like it's neighbours.

    Sources
    http://m.jpost.com/app/article/490317
    https://www.google.com.br/amp/www.jta.org/2017/05/07/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/bill-officially-defining-israel-as-jewish-state-approved-by-knesset-committee/amp
    https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-06-11/is-israel-the-jewish-state-not-according-to-its-own-laws?cmpid=socialflow-facebook-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
     
  14. Evil Shnitzel

    Evil Shnitzel High Inquisitor

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    No chance of that to actually pass, another law proposal to get cookies from the general population and to further demolish "traitorous" media and the Supreme Court. Also, Dichter is not the Defence Minister.
    More worrying is the recent "moral code" meant to be imposed on lecturers in universities to stop them from expressing political (leftist) opinions. My goal is to stay the fuck away.
     
  15. Rhett

    Rhett Fourth Year

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    When Arafat compared the Oslo Accords to Huddaybiyyah, that demonstrated the true state of certain Palestinians in power to truly negotiate a lasting peace.
    Don't get me wrong, I think Israel does, at times, take advantage of all the sympathy its people have gained due to the Holocaust. That being said, on most issues, I would support it against its neighbours.
     
  16. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    Israel gives one more step towards it's journey to be like it's neighbours, Lumineers of democracy and equality.

    They're closing down Al Jazeera and cutting of it's signal.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-aljazeera-idUSKBN1AM0J6?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=5987766e04d3012baba20a49&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook
     
  17. Evil Shnitzel

    Evil Shnitzel High Inquisitor

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    I'm quite conflicted on this issue. Obviously, as a liberal I'm all for free speech and all. But having seen AJ blatantly lie so many times, despite the occasional undeniable proof of the opposite, it's really hard not to cheer. Not to mention them being an arm of the Qatar government, one of Hamas's sponsors..
     
  18. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    AJ is also the only mainstream Arab channel. PSG is also a major arm of the Qatari government as are Qatari Airlines. I'm not seeing any sane people defending kicking them out, banning their merchandise and arresting people for using them. And I'm sure AJ is the only news media on Israel that lies a lot. The Erdogan/Chavez route is 100% safe. Specially when you're backing the Saudis coup.

    I'm sure that Trump seizing CNN assets and interrupting would be seen in the same ambiguous light. I'm also sure Israel is blocking Saudi, UAE and Russian news.

    Censorship is Censorship, and there are very few cases you should make an exception. When you allow everyone and their mothers to lie a loooot, but then ban the only main opposition news channel for it, then you got an issue. Again, specially when you're doing it to support Saudis and co.
     
  19. Evil Shnitzel

    Evil Shnitzel High Inquisitor

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    1. PSG can go fuck themselves, they represent the worst in football (same goes for ManShitty and the rest)
    2. Who's arresting people for watching AJ now? It seems like you are willing to believe the worst about Israel from this post and some of the past ones.
    3. AJ's lies differ from others because they actively incite for violence and serve as a propaganda tool for government backing a terrorist organization inside the country where said terrorists operate.
    4. To say that AJ are the only opposition channel would be ignorance at best and malignant painting at worst. There are countless of media channels, local and foreign, constantly criticizing the government and the occupation.
    5. I'm not saying that the current blocking is free from politics, it probably is, but not because of the Saudis. The Minister of communication probably does that to bolster public opinion of Netanyahu, who is currently under three major corruption investigations but clings to his seat.
     
  20. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    1- Good on you?

    2- Never said that. I was using it as an example of ridiculous extreme. Btw Gulf States are actually threatening to arrest people with Barca shirts because of the sponsor. Qatari Airlines.

    3- Oh. So you're saying that AJ is openly supporting terrorists? Yet none of the EU countries or the US said that or support that claim. I don't remember it being banned in the West, and the US doesnt have a good tolerance for the terrorists. And you said can, again, be appointed to Saudi and other Gulf States news. Are they banned too? Al Jazeera has bases/buildings in the US, London and others.

    Your Prime Minister is a fan of a team so virulently anti-muslim that is basically a criminal organization and there was a whole documentary about it. Not only he does that, he and multiple politicians openly campaigned for a condemned murderer. "inciting violence" seems to be how Israeli are doing politics nowadays.

    4- I said it was the major Arab one. No mention about being the only one. It's only the major Arab newscaster that actually had global reach. It's the only powerful Arab one.

    5- ... Not because of the Saudis? Seems unlikely, since they Israeli minister explicitly cited them and the UAE for the ban. I'm sure Israel will quickly ban Saudi-friendly TVs too.

    So my point is. If Al Jazeera is so obviously evil, why does it seems that only the Gulf States and Israel see it? And even then, Israel only did it after AJ has been for a long time but coincidentally it matched the Saudi-led embargo?

    Defending a controversial position shouldn't be banned. Specially in a country like Israel where the views of politicians of both sides get rather extreme. Unless you can prove a direct link, to really really shouldn't do censoring. Also, I fully expect the censoring to be uneven, extremely so, towards people critics of Israel than the most extreme right wingers. Which is the Chavez route.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017