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News (that doesn't deserve its own thread)

Discussion in 'Real Life Discussion' started by Taure, Aug 27, 2014.

  1. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    Ah yes, the undisputed solution to this question, no other opinions are necessary. I guess the history of the character doesn't matter. You're absolutely right. Every relic of the past must be discarded. Thank you for delivering this unimpeachable argument.
     
  2. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman Prestige DLP Supporter

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    ...you're seriously offended that I have an opinion that differs from you? Because it sounds like you're offended that I have an opinion that differs from you. My point was that Bond is an MI6 agent. If the film is set in 2018 then perhaps he should resemble an MI6 agent in 2018. If you want a 1950's style main character, then perhaps the film should be set in the 1950's. Because the character doesn't fit into the modern day. At all.

    Tell me, why does it make a difference if Bond is Black rather than White? Or perhaps Middle Eastern or Asian? There's a huge recruitment push for people of Asian ethnicities to join the security services. Maybe we should have Dev Patel playing a young geeky Bond? Or maybe Raza Jaffrey, he showed he can carry off the spy role in Spooks and he's older now so could bring some gravitas to the role.

    You want Bond to be a misogynist, womanising, alcoholic? Certainly on parts A and C, he wouldn't last long as an employee of the Government. They're so focused on trying to break down the image of the old boys club, and remove the glass ceiling, that Bond as written probably wouldn't even get hired. And if he lucked through the recruitment process, he'd quickly be sidelined for fear of the scandal his actions and beliefs would cause.
     
  3. nahbutualright

    nahbutualright Fourth Year

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    Well why do all those characters have to be James Bond? Why not exercise some creativity and make whole new characters who embody all of these changes. Then people have the choice to go watch whichever one they prefer, and everybody wins.

    Also since when do we give a shit about James Bond being unrealistic? And why does he have to be 'brought up to date'? Imagine what the Sopranos would have been like if Tony was 'up to date'. Not every protagonist needs to be a hero, or even likeable, and trying to make them likeable for everyone leads to bland, homogenised crap and never works anyway. If you see James Bond's misogyny or alcoholism as a deal breaker, no ones making you watch the movies, you have other choices.
     
  4. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    You described Bond--acurately--as a stereotype of a sexist macho man from decades ago. I took that to imply that therefore he has no place in the franchise anymore. Was I wrong?

    Why does Bond have to change to fit the times? We know he's not the only 00. Why can't Bond be left alone to be Bond? Why does diversity have to overtake every established IP instead of making the effort of creating their own? Say they cast the next Bond to type. Moviegoers will show if that kind of character has a place in the franchise or not. They'll see the movie, or they won't.

    For some people it doesn't. For me it doesn't matter if he's black or asian. His character matters. And yes, his gender and sexuality. It's how the character was written. Imo, Bond is a guy with certain characteristics. If you want a 00 agent to fit 2018, why does it have to be Bond? The chief reason, as I see it, not to create a new character is the brand. The brand that was built around that specific character. I didn't like it when they retconned Hermione as black because diversity and I wouldn't like it if they made Bond a geeky nerd. They already geekified Q.

    Yes. That's who Bond is. I'm not saying I want another Bond film. It's an old, tired franchise, the last two films proved that. By all means, leave Bond behind in favor of young geeky 009. Or retire the character of Bond so he frees up the 007 number. But changing Bond himself is unnecessary.
     
  5. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman Prestige DLP Supporter

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    And if you don't want to watch a modern version of an old classic, retold with an eye to a modern audience you don't have to. No one will make you go to the cinema. You can sit on your computer and bitch online about 'progressives ruining established IPs' whilst the film goes on to make millions.

    Or maybe I was saying that he needs to move with the times and come on up to date.

    Why do they have to change the character name just to change their appearance? Why can't Bond be left alone to be Bond? Because Bond is out of date. Because Bond couldn't exist nowadays the way he was written.

    I get it, you want things to remain the same as they ever were, and that all change is bad. You're absolutely right, that the reason not to change the name of the character is for the brand. The brand is worth a huge amount of money. So they're going to keep making films with it. But they're going to want as many folk as possible to go and see those films, so they're going to try and make them relevant and approachable to a modern audience. I doubt we'll see a female Bond, not for a few more iterations of the character. But a racial change, definitely. Less emphasis on the whole macho, sexism, alcoholic thing, definitely.

    And at the end of the day you can choose not to watch it. If you want to say that your Bond is a straight, white man who thinks homosexuals can't whistle, who never cries, and who honestly thinks that a womans only purpose is to have sex with him and/or get him a drink...then you can. No one is stopping you. But that character is going to sell less and less over the coming years, so the brand is going to have adapt or die.
     
  6. nahbutualright

    nahbutualright Fourth Year

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    Like Ghostbusters did? Like all those Marvel comics that just crashed and burned because they were pandering shit with no point other than their progressivism? Changing established IP's that work fine as they are, or digging up old ones that should be left alone has not been working for the folks doing it so far.

    If someone can come up with an original idea, that can stand on its own merits AND have a progressive message, great, more power to them, I'll go watch it. But shoehorning a bunch of that shit in where its not needed and acting like they've fixed a problem is a tactic that needs to die, ASAP. Hopefully after the next few failures people will wise up about it.
     
  7. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    They tried that with Ghostbusters. I'll give diversity the benefit of doubt and wait for Ocean's 8 box office results before declaring a trend.

    Or maybe he can be retired instead of changed.

    See above.

    Bullshit.

    You're assuming that's what the modern audience wants. What are the biggest action franchises right now? Bond, Mission Impossible, Fast and Furious, MCU... Notice that F&F didn't need to recast Dom Toretto, they just created a cool new character and gave that role to Dwayne Johnson. MCU is fine with RDJ, Johansson and Evans as franchise leads and everyone still fucking loved Black Panther. No need to make Iron Man a black woman.

    My point is that the brand doesn't have to discard Bond like a used condom. The character can be retired. He doesn't have to be changed. But true, ultimately they're a business, the Bond brand has huge pull and they'll make Bond as diverse as possible if it sells. If it sells.
     
  8. Ludwig

    Ludwig Third Year

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    I think one of the ideas trying to be conveyed here is that it is not working fine as it is, or that it should not work in the current time period.

    This doesn't mean I agree with him, just that he might be trying to make a different point. I don't care enough about 007 to have an opinion about this whole mess, I'm just giving my own interpretation of what was said.
     
  9. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Thor is female in the newer comics. Can't wait for when they make those movies to see the level of nerd rage people get into if this is what speculation on Bond is doing.

    I'm not going to insert myself into this too far, but its a pretty weak argument that you don't think Bond can be played by anyone else than the archtype the author created. As it appears to me, maybe he was just a racist piece of shit and never considered a black man capable of doing the job? Consider the time frame in which the books where wrote. You're aruging from a Hollywood perspective, which has always been secular and super bigoted.

    Maybe just chill for a bit.
     
  10. Ludwig

    Ludwig Third Year

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    More than anything it will motivate great groups of people (most likely on twitter) to just argue about it without caring for anything else. A lot of people just want to argue about something, and that will be the new hot topic.
     
  11. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    And curiously, the MCU Thor is a white guy with abs.

    But they keep making movies because all they have to do is call the character Bond and everything else doesn't matter. It's about the label, right? But I must be talking crazy. The Last Jedi has been universally acclaimed by hardcore and casual fans alike. Mark Hamill's character is called Luke Skywalker. His character doesn't matter.
     
  12. nahbutualright

    nahbutualright Fourth Year

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    It is working just fine though, Spectre cleared $880 Million. The people who like James Bond as he is now will go see the films as long they continue to like what they see. And that in no way stops anyone from making Idris Elba, Secret Agent. There is room for both, so why cannibalise one good franchise when we could potentialy have two?
     
  13. Ludwig

    Ludwig Third Year

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    I haven't seen any of the movies in a long time, I don't know how much they make or how well received they are. What I am doing is going off what is being argued in this thread.

    Like Zombie, I don't want to insert myself too deep here (especially considering I don't know shit about these movies). I just wanted to understand the arguments from both sides to make my own opinion. Sorry if it sounded like I was saying the movies don't work as they are.
     
  14. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Key words, Can't Wait Until They Make Those Movies. I know currently that its played by a muscle ridden jock. Doesn't mean that in the future when they're rebooting a rebooted reboot they don't make that decision. And if I'm remember my MCU shit right anway's Fury was White in the comics, but I don't remember a single soul losing sleep over that.

    You're not talking crazy, because apparently a bunch of other people had the same thought as you. That doesn't make it right. He's intellectual property. Hollywood gives two shits about maintaining the history of the books, they wish to make money. You can only hope you get a director that wishes to keep the same direction as canon, but that's not always the case.

    Just deal with it. There's no way you can ever prove that a woman or a man or woman of color could do a better or worse job than the original character.

    Ghostbusters was a poor excuse. Its not the cast's fault, its the directors ultimately for having a shitty story line and hoping to jump on the successes of past movies.

    No one can ever be Bill Murray, so you're going to need to do a pretty compelling story to compensate for that. Instead you got a cartoony piece of shit with well known female actors, that they thought would place well.

    They just did the math wrong.
     
  15. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign Prestige

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    I absolutely can. We judge actors on their performances all the time.

    And the shitty overall quality of the product had nothing at all to do with the general push for diversity? I disagree.
     
  16. Ludwig

    Ludwig Third Year

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    Pretty sure he is saying that them doing a good job is not directly related to the color of their skin or their gender.
     
  17. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Their performance isn't dictated by their gender or race, its a matter of skill and believability.
     
  18. Oz

    Oz UNQUESTIONABLY THE MOST HETERO MAN IN THE WORLD Moderator DLP Supporter

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    Scott Press is Polish so is canonically racist and misogynistic.
     
  19. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    50 % audience freshness at Rotten Tomatoes suggests otherwise. Undoubtedly part of that is people raging against Rey and Finn and all the other oddities-in-Hollywood, but it's being beaten out by basically everything. Critically acclaimed, yes, but fans aren't exactly too hot on it, it seems. IMDB also suggests otherwise, with Last Jedi currently essentially tied with Revenge o/t Sith at a 7.6/10. (Though ahead of Phantom and Attack.)

    On a scale of one to five, this is about three and a half Donald Trumps.
     
  20. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Is Rotten Tomatoes a viable source of trusted criticism? I feel like they pander to the highest bidder.

    That being said, maybe we should have a thread for this if there is going to be continued discussion?