WIP Red Eye and Silver Warden by Irritus185 - T - Dresden / Sailor Moon

Discussion in 'Dresden Files' started by Cruentus, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus Prestige DLP Supporter

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    This is why I hate so much anime now, it's become a power dick-waving contest.

    I could be misremembering, but I don't recall Dresden ever doubting their 'power', only their age.
     
  2. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    That'd make it even worse in Dresden's eyes. They're teenagers with absurd amounts of power, with the only oversight coming from some kind of supernatural creature. Harry's been there before. It didn't end well for him, so it's perfectly understandable that he'd be reluctant to let the Sailor Scouts do what they're supposed to.
     
  3. Jarik

    Jarik Chief Warlock

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    I dunno, I think I'd prefer more friction between them.

    Imagine him appearing before these sort of silly looking costumed crusaders who all have power on the level of some of the epic beings in Nevernever, being directed by a clearly spiritual being. He may still have his usual snark, but he'd be viewing them with the caution he would the other dangerous beings he deals with.

    Then it ends up they've recruited his daughter and he's really worried. So sure, he'd continue to mentor his daughter and probably fall into an uneasy working alliance with them. He'd still be a bit skeptical of all their antics, but their power and the power of what they fight would be enough for him to take it seriously. He'd still be concerned with the fact they're children, but they're also meant to be reincarnations to counteract that. It's also hard to jump in there and tell them what to do when they can kick his ass.

    I think that'd have had a better dynamic.
     
  4. Mutton

    Mutton Auror

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    That's how it starts, I'm referring to people who care about representation of power levels
     
  5. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Jazz Hands!!!

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    Anime now? Sailor Moon is older than I am. The manga came out in, what? 1991?

    Also, it's pretty unfair to say it's a 'power dick-waving contest' when it's pretty unlikely that the authors of either series ever thought about crossing them over. There's plenty of ridiculously high-level novels in America and while a lot of people forget it, Tolkien--arguably the father of the modern fantasy genre--had people shooting arrows that accurately killed people from tens of kilometers away and guys hoping on a magical spaceship to do battle with a dragon the size of a mountain range*.

    *The Silmarillion was like something out of a rock opera. In fact, there was a rock opera about it.

    Ehhh, if there's anything Harry should know better then pretty much anyone, it's that age does not wisdom make. Not that that'd keep him from wanting to intervene, but still.

    He also really doesn't have much room to talk down to them and doing stuff like that has bitten him in the ass repeatedly.
     
  6. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, which is why I said 'anime' and not 'this is why I hate Sailor moon now'.

    And what? He doesn't have room to talk down to them? There is no one in any universe more experienced in making stupid, life threatening fuck-ups. I'd say he's the authority on the issue, and has the most right to shield the senshi - especially his daughter.

    That's what being a parent is, or at least should be.
     
  7. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Jazz Hands!!!

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    Frankly, 'I've made more bad decisions than all of you put together so you should listen to me' isn't the most convincing of arguments to begin with. More to the point, Harry has no idea what the hell is going on and acting like he does is simply another mistake on his part.

    Good intentions aside, this is a mistake that Harry has made again and again and again--that is, using the excuse that he knows better than others and withholding information that ends up hurting them anyway. While Harry often does know more than those around him, he doesn't know everything. Point of fact, he usually doesn't even know a lot, which is odd for a guy who's lived with a spirit of Intellect for years. Thinking he does know what's up is an understandable mistake on his part, but a mistake nonetheless.

    So no, he doesn't have any right to talk down to people about something he doesn't understand. There's a difference between talking down to someone and trying to help or teach them and the latter is fine--but not the former. Honestly, given how relatively rarely Harry gets into real fights*, it's arguable whether or not he even has the experience to do such a thing and for how long it would last. Even in the anime, the Senshi go through four or five apocalyptic events, fight off several thousand monsters, die one to four times a piece, save the world/galaxy half a dozen times, face horrific betrayals, and etc. all in the course of, like, a year or two? If that. If you go by the manga, they do all that and then some. Usagi's final boss is fucking Azathoth.

    Quite frankly, in terms of experience, it's arguable if Harry has any real advantage, to say nothing of how long it would last. If he wants to help, that's fine, but he's really got no right to talk shit--or, at least, the Senshi have no particular need to pay attention to him if he does.

    *Both Harry and Jim have stated repeatedly that the books usually detail his worst week in a year.
     
  8. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Or, you know...

    'I've fought and triumphed against some of the most vile and evil creatures in this universe, and even the next. This is not a job for children, or even one I'd wish on my enemies. I'll go find out more about the conflict and protect them from it.'
     
  9. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Jazz Hands!!!

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    Except...not really?

    Okay, let's start with something that just irks me. Harry sure as fucking hell hasn't 'fought and triumphed against some of the most vile and evil creatures in this universe.' Hell, any time he fights something above his weight class--or often even around it--he gets his ass kicked. Let's go down the list.

    SF: The Shadowman wasn't even stronger than Harry and was significantly less trained.

    FM: None of the werewolves were anywhere near as strong as a wizard.

    GP: He was about equal to the guys he fought, got his ass kicked many times anyway, won in the end only because of location.

    SK: Won because of iron and the Little Folk--and explicitly because Aurora was busy at the time.

    DM: Didn't really win at all, just escaped with his life and the Shroud.

    BR: Lost both fights, really, as Mavra got what she wanted and Lord Raith kicked his ass while running on fumes. He had Lara on hand to save him from the latter, thanks to outside information telling him about Raith's weakness, but...

    DB: Lost every single confrontation with any of the Necromancers, really. Managed to shoot CT in the back of the head, though, and shove Cowl thile he was juggling dynamite. Both of them walked it off, though.

    GP: Lost the fight with Scarecrow, won because of a boost from Lily and a lack of fear thing that never came up again and how does that even work? But still, got beaten up by fetches for most of the book.

    WK: Not really stronger opponents, though one had backing he was given immunity to for a last minute save.

    SmF: Not really stronger opponents except situationally, except for Tessa--who got everything she wanted and left, anyway--and Nicodemus who didn't want to kill him and got close enough to expose his weakness.

    TC: Harry got his shit wrecked. Repeatedly. Even with all the cards in his favor.

    Changes: Got his shit uber wrecked. Harry survived that last battle and killed the Red Court, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend it had anything to do with Harry or his own power. He would have lost that last battle if not for Lea, two different kinds of divine intervention (Odin and Mab), a herd of super wizards making a save while his bacon was sizzling, and a massive curse already prepped for him. All of which was organized by outside forces to the point that Lea dressed Susan in the ceremonial garb of human sacrifices.

    GS: Got his shit wrecked in battle, won because Uriel is a boss.

    CD: I swear, this book was 'Meave and her goons make Harry look like an idiot' the book, because that's what happened literally every time he went against Maeve's crew. Won because of three types of divine intervention (Odin, Erlking, and Mab) and luck after repeatedly getting his ass kicked. Really more of Mab's victory, too, given that he was still dead to rights by the end.

    SG: Harry did really well in this book, but mostly because the Denarians forgot half their powers. Like, I guess Ursiel forgot that the Denarians can instantly memorize anything they see like the pattern of the ice Chamber, the location of things in the dark, etc. And I guess Lasciel forgot that she could instantly teach people magic and had centuries of experience and etc. And I guess Nicodemus forgot how to use explosives. And etc.

    And you know know what? None of these things were the worst in the Universe. Nor the galaxy or the solar system nor even our tiny little planet. The strongest thing Harry really fought was probably the Skinwalker, who Jim has flat out stated was considered dumb muscle for the big guys around Earth--and he lost that fight even with the deck stacked in his favor. As Jim has stated several times, the big dogs are only just beginning to notice Harry and care about it.

    Now if you want to talk about the most vile things in the Universe, we can do that. When I said that manga Sailor Moon's Big Bad was Azathoth, I meant it. Sure, that's not his name...but he's the Nuclear Chaos at the Center of the Universe. Their first big bad was one of his minions, an Eldritch Abomination named Metalia, a dark cloud that invaded the solar system and consumed all in it's path. When she was reawakened, her presence drove the entirety of planet earth into an insane, murderous frenzy, causing the entire Human race to murder each other from San loss. Those are the types of things they end up fighting. I am not kidding at all when I say that killing Lovecraftian beings is what they do for a living; their job is to protect the solar system.

    That's in regards to ability, which I feel is important--but there is, of course, more to that when it comes to fighting the forces of evil. The girls are young, after all. Are they ready for what they have to face? Should they have to face it at all?

    Yes, to both questions. The latter because frankly, there's nobody else who can. The former because they proved themselves repeatedly. All of the Senshi have given their lives to protect people, repeatedly. They've endured physical and mental torture as well, especially in Usagi's case. When Galaxia murdered her friends and lover and then revived them as her minions, Usagi still fought and defeated all of them and didn't give up even when it meant their deaths. She didn't even give up when it meant her own death, instead submerging herself in the Galaxy Cauldron to protect the universe, dissolving body and soul in the process--and then she pulled herself back together, retained hope in the face of an awful choice, and dragged herself back out to save the galaxy. And then she made out with her future self for awhile.

    The point being that the Senshi go through some shit and kept trucking of love, friendship, and the general desire to punch evil in the face. Ideally, they shouldn't have had to fight those battles--but they had to, so they did. Even early in the anime where this apparently takes place, they risked their lives to save others because no one else was around--and Harry has no real right to judge them or talk shit. He'd have done the same thing and no one else was around to help them at the time, so has no right to look down on them for doing what the Alphas and Murphy and he himself also did when it was called for.

    That's how it is and if he doesn't like it, then frankly, Harry (or whoever's dressing up as him for this fic) can go fuck himself off a building. He doesn't lift enough to be a part of this conversation anyway and all the girls proved themselves over and over again.
     
  10. Agayek

    Agayek The Chosen One

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    So you're saying that because that shit happened in canon and will probably happen in the future (and so Dresden has no possible way of knowing about it), Dresden must know about it and adjust his decisions accordingly.

    Does that not seem a little retarded to anyone else?
     
  11. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    You're still missing the point, Ryuugi. Harry got so burned by a single mistake in his youth that he is still paying for it two decades later. He doesn't want his daughter or the rest of the Senshi to make a similar mistake, because in Harry's world power does not come without a price. So he tries to keep them out of it, keep them safe. Once that proved impossible, he dealt with it the same way he did in canon; giving them information and assistance when they needed it so that they didn't fuck up just by ignorance.

    EDIT: Also, Harry wins against creatures much more powerful than him because he's not a fucking idiot. He doesn't go up against beings much more powerful than him without an ace up his sleeve, because otherwise he'd just get stomped. Hell, the entire modus operandi of wizards in setting is to go away, research, then come back and wreck shit because they've found out all of your weaknesses.

    Look, I know you have a preference for high powered characters, but you're seriously missing the mark if you think that's what the Dresden Files is all about. Harry wins via cunning, ingenuity and the occasional bit of luck.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
  12. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Jazz Hands!!!

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    You're right. Harry doesn't know what they will do--just as he doesn't know what they have done. He doesn't know about the situation, who they're fighting, or why. He doesn't know who or what they are, doesn't know what they've gone through, and, really, doesn't know much of anything else about what's going on.

    So maybe, just maybe, he shouldn't be talking shit?

    Okay, to begin with--you're wrong. As I illustrated, Harry doesn't go up against stronger opponents and win period. Point of fact, I'd go so far as to say that Harry is a shitty wizard, by the standards he himself laid down. How often does Harry 'go away, research, then come back and wreck shit because they've found out all of your weaknesses'? How often does he prepare himself at all?

    Despite what you said, I actually don't mind weaker characters, so long as they use what means they have at their disposal--and Harry really kind of doesn't. Here's a big one: Fucking potions. Quite frankly, the SEP Potion he made in Fool Moon was probably the most impressive bit of magic he's ever managed--which he never used again. Point of fact, Potions have a lot of powerful uses, such as with the escape potion, and Butters proved that stuff like that can still work. How many times would the SEP Potion or the Air Escape Potion have saved his ass over the course of the books? And the former, at least, was trivial to make.

    Another example: His enchanted items. This is a more recent one...kind of. Really, Harry's said for awhile now that he couldn't do anything big because it'd be too expensive and he's perpetually broke, which is still dumb but I'll put that aside. I'm talking about his fuck up in SG, where he had a year and a half on Demonreach and prepared all of two items. No internet, no books, nothing else to do, and that's it? Harry calls himself out on this one, saying that wizards are supposed to be prepared and he should know it, which...doesn't make up for the fact that he didn't do it.

    Another example: Motherfucking Bob. Harry's had a powerful spirit of Intellect on his side for nearly two decades--and yet, knows shit. There are some pretty glaring examples, too; in Fool Moon he didn't know about werewolves, in GP he didn't recognize the Vampire Courts, he'd never heard of the one group of Fallen Angels that's free to fuck with shit, knew nothing about the Fae, didn't know Kemmler existed, on and on.

    That's not even getting into the obvious gaps in his knowledge of magic. Not everyone's good at everything, granted, but Harry's had decades with an assistant most wizards would kill for and is barely competent with half the types of magic he can use. How? It's not like he has a busy work schedule. People always complain about HP not learning stuff to prepare himself, but how the hell is HD so ignorant? Especially when his lack of knowledge keeps getting him nearly killed. I don't think it's too much to ask for Harry to just ask Bob 'So...I'm a new wizard and things are trying to kill me. Do you know any other beings likely to try and kill me?' And while I'm not asking that Harry be the godking of every kind of magic, he should at least be generally competent at the important fields.

    The truth of the matter is that Harry sucks at preparing for anything. SG's was the first time in a long while that I was impressed by his forethought, even if it was Santa-assisted and undermined by the Denarian's growing incompetence. Usually, he stumbles into something that he should damn well be able to handle and is just bafflingly unable. HD spends 90% of his year the way HP spends his summers.

    You say that 'Harry wins via cunning, ingenuity and the occasional bit of luck' but while that's true, let's be honest about the proportions: 5% cunning, 5% ingenuity, 90% luck. Harry gets saved by chance, his opponent's mistakes, and people suddenly showing up five to ten times a book. Should he be able to handle everything? No. But should he get his ass handed to him at every turn? Also no. I like the idea of 'Weak but intelligent mage plans around his enemies' but that's sure as hell not Harry. He says repeatedly that a wizards greatest ally is preparation but finds himself perpetually unprepared. What I'm looking forward to most in Mirror Mirror is seeing a Harry that's actually a fucking wizard.

    So yeah, Harry made a mistake when he was a kid that he's learned from, more or less. But now that he's an adult, he's progressed to making mistakes and not learning from them. If/when he figures out how to get past that and if/when he knows about what's going on, maybe he'd have the right to talk--but even then, not talk down.

    As is though, no. He can act to protect the Senshi, but he's got zero right to act like their idiots or to tell them to sit down and shut up, much less everything else he's been doing.
     
  13. Agayek

    Agayek The Chosen One

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    So because he doesn't know the specifics about their foes, beyond that they're generically evil and demonstrably willing to do Bad Shit(tm), he should stand back and silently watch his daughter and her friends throw themselves into the same kind of debacles he goes through semi-regularly (or significantly worse, if we're gonna keep using meta-knowledge)?

    Like seriously, what kind of parent would do that?

    Lacking all other info, what he's seeing is "group of nasty warlocks vs fourteen year old girls with super-magic". What possible reason does he have to not try to get them to stop? Kids should be allowed to be kids, not turned into child soldiers to throw into the meatgrinder.

    Now, you can argue that he's being hypocritical about it, because he definitely is, but hypocrisy, especially on topics like this, aren't exactly out of character, so I'm not seeing why it's a particular problem.
     
  14. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Jazz Hands!!!

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    Because it's not just hypocritical and it's not just stupid--because, again, Harry's usually at least aware that there's more going on, if largely clueless about what until the end. Harry's also being a huge dick about it, assuming he's right about everything in the face of piling evidence that he (as usual, honestly) has no idea what he's talking about, and refusing to see their sides of the argument or alternatives.

    Plus, again--they were handling things because there was no one else around to protect people. They're young, sure, but while they shouldn't have to do all that, it deserves respect for then assholery. If you'll recall, I explicitly noted that trying to help or find another way is fine, but he's really got no right to be an asshole about kids fighting to protect themselves and innocent people. After all, it's not like the White Council was doing anything about it.

    The Senshi did the same thing as the Alphas, just on a larger scale (out of necessity) and while younger (out of necessity). They deserve a fair bit of credit for repeatedly saving lives and saying they shouldn't have had to is all well and good--but they did, so its a moot point.
     
  15. Agayek

    Agayek The Chosen One

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    I can't tell if it's intentional or not, but you're strawmanning pretty hard there. The Senshi did what was right and necessary, no question there, and even Dresden agrees to that in the fic itself.

    However, I didn't say anything about that. Dresden's entire sticking point is that they shouldn't have to and, now that adults who at least theoretically and as far as he knows are capable of dealing with the situation know about it, they don't have to, and therefore shouldn't. The whole point is to let them keep or at minimum try to give them back at least some portion of their childhood and innocence. And yes, he's being something of a dick about it, but again, what on Earth makes you think that Dresden would sit back and let 14 year old girls (let alone his daughter and her friends) throw themselves into the grinder when there are competent, professional adults around to do it instead?
     
  16. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Jazz Hands!!!

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    Is that what we're calling Harry now?

    Jokes aside, he's ignoring a lot of things right before his eyes with no evidence, misinterpreting a great deal more, and ignoring the arguments against him. Yes, again, they should have had to fight--but they did and they have and just because Harry thinks that he can handle everything from here on* doesn't change that. Harry's feelings are understandable, but also wrong and he steadfastly avoids accepting that.

    A big part of that is the fact that, as Nemrut said, this story isn't portrayed kindly for the SM side of things. Yes, there are a fair amount of ridiculous things that can be made fun of and making fun of stuff is what Harry does, but there's also a great deal of seriousness underneath the surface that's getting brushed over or misportrayed because he doesn't understand what's actually going on. And he really, really doesn't understand what's going on and continues to refuse to accept that despite the mounting evidence, acting like an arrogant shit all the while.

    Harry's actions make a certain kind of sense if he ignores everything that's happening and at stake...which he is and which is why it's stupid.

    *And when has Harry been able to handle anything by himself? That's not even an insult--I'm honestly asking. Harry calls for help whenever possible because he knows the risks of going in alone. When he has to anyway, he pretty much always gets his ass kicked and needs to be saved.
     
  17. Jarik

    Jarik Chief Warlock

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    So let's put aside the argument on whether or not Harry is actually more experienced, capable and better for a sec and just look at the way he acted.

    You're a young girl who has been thrust into life and death situations against evil that normal humans don't even know exist. No one else has stepped into help, and from your point of view it is your small group vs an entire immortal evil kingdom. From you're point of view, you've done a pretty damn good job through pain and struggle to protect the world.

    Then you meet this random guy who has only just learned the Dark Kingdom exists and of your efforts. Shockingly, he seems knowledgeable and capable of magic. There's a bit of a misunderstanding where he threatens and attacks your friend and mentor, but that's sorted out. But then, what does he say?

    Umm, excuse me?

    Who the fuck are you?


    I don't care how experienced he is, that's just pure dickery. There is no one who wouldn't take offense to that. That isn't offering a helpful hand, that is diminishing all their efforts and struggles. He's just lucky that it was Usagi he was talking to and not one of the others who would take more of an offense to that.

    I get that sort of behavior may be appropriate to his own daughter he is concerned over, but someone he has just met? That's way out of line. Sure, you can say it's consistent with Dresden's usual lack of tact, but it also makes him an asshole.
     
  18. Agayek

    Agayek The Chosen One

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    Yes, he's acting like an asshole. So what? Nobody ever claimed otherwise.

    I mean seriously, I'm seeing the argument "Dresden's acting like an asshole in a pretty much completely in-character way, therefore the story is awful". What sense does that make?
     
  19. joshuafaramir

    joshuafaramir Unspeakable

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    All I know is that I enjoyed reading the damn thing. Enjoyment is the key here so I'm giving it 4/5.

    And I've always had a sweet spot for Sailor Moon, cuz yanno, schoolgirls in tight mini-skirts fighting the forces of evil through love and DragonBallZ powerplays.
     
  20. Jibril

    Jibril Headmaster

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    Putting aside Dresden's standard attitude, I think the main problem this story will have is the power levels. In Dresdenverse with more power comes more restrictions on what you can do. And in Sailor Moon we have Usagi that at the end looks like she could take on Mab with ease. That is the problem. A human having high-level power without any restrictions like other high-end powers. Plus, she have free will, which gives her a massive bonus over everyone else.