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Religion/Spirituality Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Halt, May 26, 2017.

  1. Arthellion

    Arthellion Groundskeeper

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    Speaking from a Christian viewpoint since I'm assuming youre coming from that background as well...it's not Islam.. it's sin and the total depravity of the human heart. Even if it's might be easier to use Islam to justify slaughter than Christianity or Hinduism, the truth is you have people using religion of any sort to justify their sin.

    See Westboro Baptist, Crusades, etc
    See treatment of untouchable castes etc

    It's a heart problem. Not a religious one.

    Though as a Christian I'd argue that the truth of Christianity is the only one that provides the solution to that issue.
     
  2. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Quite a collection of generalizations you've got there!

    Ah, so because 'they' do it, that means it makes for a good argument, does it? By the way, your question is tautological.

    Fixed that for you to make it less stupid.

    The answer to your question is that Islamic terrorists use false theology to justify their acts, and so we can and do use that to question the validity of their claims.

    What that doesn't allow you to do is use that to tar the entire religion.

    This is pretty much the only valid contention in your argument. It's true that tolerance of religious pluralism in the Middle East is terrible, and worse than it used to be even ten years ago.

    Frankly, though, the fact that you ask this amidst a post that is dripping with intolerance is pretty damn rich.

    Oh, as a whole, eh? Tell me, have you ever met a Muslim?

    --

    Doubtless, though, your opinion would also be that only your particular sect provides the solution, which would tend to invalidate the validity of the original premise...

    Myself, I prefer the simple doctrine: Don't be such an asshole, asshole.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  3. Longsword

    Longsword Third Year

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    It is not as if theology is the only rule by which modern people live. A person belonging to a western nation regardless of his faith is bound to act in ways according to which he has been raised, people of all religions conveniently ignore ludicrous passages out of their holy books when it seems inconvenient to follow them. It is not something unique about Christianity.
    Lack of education, religiously charged tribalism and politics are far more important.

    Another question that I believe should be asked is whether there is a tendency in some countries having Islam as a major religion to have religious authorities with some real power in matters of administration, allowing them more power than would be possible otherwise.
    There are many books that contain repulsive rules and regulations dated from centuries ago, but are they ever enforced? Looking at Hinduism as an example, texts like Manusmriti are horrible when it comes to backwardness, but they do not matter much because hardly any Hindu even knows about them, so they do not even consider implementing something out of it.

    edit : to further emphasise this point, note how little reformist Hinduism had on deeply conservative Indian regions in the 19th century. Despite being couched in terms of religion it had not as large an effect as some believe.
    People even today belonging to upper brackets of society can be casually accepting of castes, even if they themselves are not religious.

    There really isn't any real version of a relgion, Islam or not, so talking about it is pointless.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    Curious as to what makes the theology false. Having studied the development of the particular subset of theological arguments that morphed into the contemporary ones giving us all fits, I can't really see where it goes off the rails (other than that it is a minority theological position within a faith tradition composed of hundreds of sometimes weirdly specific theological positions on related matters.)

    And, just to be clear, by studied I mean several years of fairly intense reading and discussion of texts going back to Ibn Taymiyyah.

    In spite of it's status as a minority view among minority views, I still don't think it's for us to call it a false theology, etc because to do so does not represent a majority view among scholars of religion generally of what constitutes religious belief. It is, however, quite politically convenient to do so in terms of marginalizing it further.

    That's how joshuafaramir would make his argument if it were grounded in something other than a low rent dislike for those who don't share his particularly intolerant theological worldview.

    EDIT: I love how he decided to actually make the argument this way in the very next post, but won't even give credit where it's due ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  5. joshuafaramir

    joshuafaramir Unspeakable

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    Here, I'll answer this first.

    Yes in fact. I've lived among them. Went to school with them. And it's not your moderate westernized Muslims as well. It's the Muslims that lived in Muslim countries.

    See, you look at Islam from the viewpoint of how you perceive Islam and moderate Muslims in the West that is also protected by liberty and freedom of religion. The minority in short.

    I look at Islam as it practiced in the Middle East where majority of the population are practitioners of Islam. Where their culture is deeply intertwined, if not defined by their religion.

    Lets break it down then:

    1. What does the Islamic terrorists use as basis for their recruitment?
    2. How do they recruit terrorists?
    3. Is religious extremism a part of their propaganda?
    4. What is the motive behind suicide bombing in terrorist groups such as ISIS, ISIL, Taliban etc.?
    5. Is the Islamic ideology deeply influenced by their religious belief system?

    Next one: It is not just Islamic terrorists. Do you suppose those Muslims living in the countries I mentioned are all Islamic terrorists? When they mob non-Muslims, threats of death? Or how about when Muslim family members threaten to kill relatives for converting? All of those things they do because that's what Islam tells them to do.


    Ah yes, because my post is all about banning Muslims, and how they're the spawn of Satan, and that they're all savages and whatnot. If you look closely, you can see that it is about my contention with Islam and the dichotomy between what their Imam and religion claims and what they practice.

    It is self evident that Islam, despite its claims of tolerance and peace, is definitely not of tolerance and peace by the way their believers act as a community with regards to religious persecution and sexism.

    Which is why I go back to my previous statement:

    An ideology which holds martyrdom as one of its highest honors, going as far to provide certain divine rewards for the martyrs is going to vastly produce more suicide bombers, as there is a straight line from the ideology to the action. While it's conceivable to read the Bible and other religious scriptures and be inspired to become a suicide bomber, there just isn't the same theological justification.

    There's already preexisting dislike, persecution and disconnect in the Muslim community especially in the Middle East against the West and non-Muslims. Infidels. Therefore, it is easier for Islamic terrorists to use Islam as a basis and justification for their acts of terrorism because whether you like it or not, there are very clear verses in the Quran that justifies suicide bombing and its rewards as well.

    Furthermore, the majority of suicide bombings, terrorist attacks have been statistically caused by radical Islamists. Recent ones too I might add.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  6. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    This assertion is factually incorrect as far as the US is concerned. Muslim perps account for roughly 6% of the attacks on US soil.

    And for some more recent years you'd get all the way up to 12%.

    Still waiting for you to thank me for showing you how to make your argument without sounding like a buffoon.
     
  7. Mestre

    Mestre Third Year

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  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    Yes, and if you use a statistically significant dataset going back more than a year you'd get a very different map. If you used a dataset that wasn't relying solely on wikipedia, you'd have one with substantially less bias.

    A less shitty one for you to use.
     
  9. joshuafaramir

    joshuafaramir Unspeakable

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    Thanks for clarifying my argument.
     
  10. Seyllian

    Seyllian Professor DLP Supporter

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    It all goes down to how you define terrorism. Some of the stuff they are accounting for I would personally label hate crimes as the 'terrorists' did not specifically kill to instill terror.
     
  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    Obligatory "one man's terrorism is another man's hate crime, and one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" post above. What's that? Walter LaQueur is on the line and he wants his bad argument from the 80s to just go away like parachute pants and Richard Simmons' workout outfit as casual wear?

    Kind of far afield from religion/spirituality though.
     
  12. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 Prestige

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    Lay off the parachute pants. I was a proud wearer in the 80s. Even wore them to church.

    Aaaaand there's the transition back to religion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  13. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android Groundskeeper

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    I'm pretty sure God forbids that in Deuteronomy. It's just before the verse about mixing fabrics.
     
  14. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Could be just after.

    That one?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  15. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 Prestige

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    Wait? Deuteronomy is posting in DLP? That's really going to screw up scholarship on the subject.
     
  16. Aurion

    Aurion Headmaster

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    I'm not religious in any way, shape, or form, and I tend to agree with this viewpoint.

    There's a reason Christianity and Islam- and hell, religion in general- talks so much about how humanity is flawed. Think what you will of the solutions proposed, but they're starting from a place that's tough to argue against.

    Twisting religion around to justify things like terrorism... well, honestly, it's an excuse. It's a powerful excuse, because even the most retardedly superior-feeling agnostic or atheist would be a fool to dismiss the idea that faith has power. But we've been shitty to each other for a hell of a lot longer than any of these religions have existed.

    In absence of religion, we'd just find another excuse. Probably just more talk about race and nationality.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  17. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    Or the same sort of ideological hairsplitting you can see in religion, just with a different form of ideology. Being officially atheist hasn't stopped the dozens of various strains of Marxist thought from having ideological squabbles fairly reminiscent of Christianity's fights over the filioque or Homoousion vs Homoiousion.
     
  18. Arthellion

    Arthellion Groundskeeper

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    Quoting from Feminism thread here since i'ts more on topic, have you ever touched Grudem's Systematic Theology? I'm not a huge fan of his american government book so never touched his systematic theology.

    It's an audio book due to lecture style, but I've always preferred R.C. Sproul's Foundations.
     
  19. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Since when is Christianity not bound by a set of laws for proper guidance?

    Christianity is rife with edicts and directives, commandments and papal encyclicals, etc.
     
  20. Invictus

    Invictus Heir

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    Well not if you're a heretic like those crazy neopentecostals or the Baptists.