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The Trumperium 2: Caesar by the Pussy

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jon, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I suspect that the response to that argument is something along the lines of "The only way to win is not to play."
     
  2. Arthellion

    Arthellion Auror

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    But by being born, a choice you had no control over, you’ve already begun to play. Therefore, assuming determinism to be true, Agayek’s statement about choice being the only thing we have is false.
     
  3. pbluekan

    pbluekan Professor DLP Supporter

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    “I didn’t have a choice in being born, so therefore I have no choice in all things that come.”

    That is ridiculous. The choice is to exist or not exist can and should be entirely disregarded in this argument. It isn’t a choice at all. All other choices simply do not exist without the existence of the individual.
     
  4. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Even people who think they're out of options still have choices to make. A determinist might say that it's illusory because the outcomes are inevitable, but I think that's a cop-out.
     
  5. Arthellion

    Arthellion Auror

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    Firstly, I'm not a determinist and I don't agree with the philosophy, simply asking how Agayek would answer it.

    As Darth Revan mentioned, determinists view any of the choices you have an illusory because you could not choose the environment into which you were born.

    He, and I agree with him, think its a cop-out, but playing devil's advocate...why? Why is it ridiculous?

    Edit: The leap in logic is not, I didn't choose to be born, therefore I have no choice in life. It's "I had not choice in the environment which shaped me, therefore I have no ability to make any decisions that have not been predetermined by something over which I had no choice over."
     
  6. ASmallBundleOfToothpicks

    ASmallBundleOfToothpicks Professor

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    How exactly would you falsify that this universe is determinist? It's not an assumption I think anyone can make with any level of certainty.

    Even if that were the case, the premise that determinism somehow invalidates the idea of free will is misguided at best. Think of it like this: Even if there's only one result that's predetermined, it's still you making the choice. You're just the individual, who when presented with a given situation, will make a specific choice, infinite times out of an equal number of repetitions assuming exactly identical environments and knowledge. Cogs that turn in a impossibly complex machine are still capable of moving in other directions, they just don't because that is their structure and the design of the environment they are in.

    Isaac Newton's Clockmaker hypothesis is how one could reconcile a determinist universe with free-ish will.

    Functionally, arguing that determinism negates free will absolves people of responsibility for their actions. If one were to continue that chain of logic to its only real conclusion, then the entire universe is just a puppet show and sentience itself doesn't exist- only the illusion of such.
     
  7. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Chelsea Manning apparently submitted her candidacy for Senate in Maryland.

    There are enough traitors in the White House, why would we want one in the Senate?
     
  8. ASmallBundleOfToothpicks

    ASmallBundleOfToothpicks Professor

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    What can I say? I dig a candidate with conviction- even it was commuted.

    Seriously though, until I see policy from her, I'm not going to comment on her viability as a candidate. I think her traitor/whistleblower status is probably a selling point in most of the circles I run in politically. If she married that with a solid accountability based platform, I think she'd be a strong candidate.
     
  9. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Some people might like that, but in my opinion, people who break their oaths can never be trusted again. Especially when they say they want to serve their country when the first oath they broke was to the same.
     
  10. Marsupial

    Marsupial Death Eater DLP Supporter

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    It's probably a selling point in the political circles I run in as well, but it's going to be poison in a general election. The broken oath/treason/soldiers died attack ads pretty much write themselves; any nuances in the realities of why she leaked info, to whom, and with what results are going to be lost in a barrage of 15-second hatemongering. And it'll work really fucking well.
     
  11. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    It's worth remembering that Manning is not the same person as Edward Snowden, did not leak the same kind of information, and did not have the same reasons. Snowden had, at least presumably, noble intentions to begin with. His conduct afterwards and his association with Russia obviously change the situation as we see it today, but his reasons are understandable at least.

    One can even argue that Wikileaks had not been compromised by the Russians yet when Snowden first leaked. That was no longer true or unknown by the time the cables were leaked.

    Manning, however, is an entirely different beast. Manning didn't reveal specific programs that were violating constitutional provisions. Instead, the leak was willy-nilly for the sake of causing damage and "change how Americans viewed the war in Iraq." 250,000 diplomatic cables dumped, which compromised American diplomacy and relationships worldwide. Foreign officials are less willing to speak with American diplomats as a result. Our relationships in Pakistan were damaged(which you may notice is having consequences even as recently as this past week or two), though the testimony as to the extent of that damage is still classified.



    You can attribute most of the deaths and suffering from the failures of the Arab Spring to Manning's leaks. US intelligence on Tunisian officials led to the first protests, and the wave that encompassed the middle east and fed the flames of instability that led to Syria and ISIS was fueled by the revelations in the diplomatic cables. Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, Bahrain, Tunisia.

    Over half a million deaths can be traced back to the decision of an angry private who wanted to be rebellious by playing the cyber-revolutionary. Manning is a traitor, and was always a traitor.
     
  12. Agayek

    Agayek The Chosen One

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    I mean shit, just narrate the last two paragraphs of Sauce Bauss' post above mine over pictures of Afghan insurgents fighting American troops and the aftermath of a couple of IEDs or something and watch as Manning's voter turnout disappears.

    Manning would have to be running against Roy Moore, or equivalent, to have even a chance of winning.
     
  13. The Iron Rose

    The Iron Rose Death Eater

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    Beyond giving classified intelligence to a Russian agent that caused immediately sd damage, there's all sorts of other fun stuff. She got mad about being reprimanded for coming in late too many times and punched her female supervisor in the face and this is arguably why she disseminated that information. She has Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and in combination with the above would probably go to pieces if she ever got in an actual debate. Which I, personally, want to see incredibly badly.



    E: also the "Are you a cop/snitch? You have to tell me if you're a cop/snitch." gambit happened when Manning got caught by the FBI which is hilarious
     
  14. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    I AM THE SENATE.

    Is she affiliated with any party in particular?
     
  15. Innomine

    Innomine Unspeakable Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Well, she said she was planning on running as a democrat. Not sure if that answers your question though. I'm sure the progressive left would be happy to embrace a transgender person running for public office though.
     
  16. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    Apparently she's putting forward her candidacy against an established Democrat? It doesn't seem like her running would be even close to a net gain for them.
     
  17. The Iron Rose

    The Iron Rose Death Eater

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    I guess most of all with Manning I just hate that the position “people who gleefully committed treason should not be senators” is now a controversial position to take in both parties.
     
  18. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    If she's serious, she'd be running to primary Sen. Ben Cardin, who would crush her like a bug.
     
  19. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Honestly, I'm giving this the Vermin Supreme treatment until there's some actual traction going on.

    @Innomine The trans angle is going to push identity politics to the front again. Expect to see a lot of 'accidental' "He, oh sorry, she, said" and the like when talking about this race. I can imagine pol and t_d already salivating at the memes they will create.
     
  20. Invictus

    Invictus Fourth Champion

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    Almost all Facebook comments on the WSJ article about her running are emphasizing HE when talking about Manning. Joy.