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The Trumperium 2: Caesar by the Pussy

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jon, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Sanders is perhaps a left-leaning centrist in a Scandinavian democracy... Probably just plain left in a generic continental sense, though I'd hesitate to tag him with 'radical fringe' even in the US context. (It implies a certain rigidity that Sanders' supporters portrayed, but the man himself prefers honey over vinegar, I think.)

    @Invictus District is R+8 according to PVI. Normally should be safe for Nunes, especially given incumbency advantages.
     
  2. Invictus

    Invictus Fourth Champion

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    This is a false equivalence, I feel, that tries to normalise the abnormal. US is the US, Scandinavia is Scandinavia. You can't completely change the parameters and pretend the object should be treated the same. The kind of radical changes to the left and statization that Sanders defends, in the sense of how much it would change from the status quo to what he advocate, would mark his as very left anywhere. Corbyin is the closest example I can find. He's way more far left than the US could conceive, but compared to how the British economy and state is geared, the changes he advocate would be similar in effect and lurch left to the changes Sanders advocates.
     
  3. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    In the abstract of wanting to upset the status quo, yes, he qualifies as a leftist seeking to fundamentally challenge and change the system, but I was more referring to the concrete 'on the issues' parts of Sanders' platform - those that translate well into European politics anyway. There is a populist tinge to them - more than the average anyway - but the ideas he puts out there are things you could very well see from various assorted socially liberal left wing parties in various EU countries. None of them, to my knowledge, exactly advocate some hardcore version of socialism. (Social democracy writ anew, perhaps...)

    Corbyn's a decent analogy, and touches upon the earlier-mentioned historical correction to the political centre as well. The adoption of Third Way social democracy did leave rather a large gap in the traditional left wing in many countries, and right now, we're seeing that the gap has been empty for too long, leading to some interesting realignments and movements. (Jury's out if 'interesting' is the same as from the 'interesting times' adage.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  4. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    That's as may be, but in the American political spectrum, he's practically Trotsky.
     
  5. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    More to the point, he's dumping it on the Friday afternoon before Super Bowl, because he doesn't buy his own hype. The hype was the point, not the memo.

    And additionally, the point probably can't be to provide cover to fire Rosenstein and/or Mueller, simply because this memo does nothing to convince anyone who wasn't already convinced the investiation is a sham in the first place. That particular group, however, is GOP voters, so it very much does provide a cover against impeachment.

    Contrast also the news, to that end: When the NYT report of Trump considering firing Mueller dropped, Fox talked about the climate change hoax. Eventually, Hannity denied it was true (the report, not the hoax), then he did a commercial break, then he said it was true and literally went "... and in other news, have a video of a police car chase in LA". Conversely, while I'm sitting here and hearing about the lackluster memo, Fox is running overtime with a scandal "bigger than Watergate".

    There you have your audiences, all lined up -- and if 39% (and 70% of GOP voters) approve of Trump, they will believe the memo is bigger than Watergate, and if some 50% disapprove, they will ignore it.


    Edit: What I'm interested in is some tide forecasts, though. @Giovanni, what's your feeling on a wave election in November?
     
  6. ASmallBundleOfToothpicks

    ASmallBundleOfToothpicks Professor

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    See this? This is how you get Antifa normalized.

    I have a feeling I'm going to wish I was high, if this turns into a 2016 tangent again.
     
  7. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    What do either of those things have to do with each other?
     
  8. Invictus

    Invictus Fourth Champion

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    Hannity is finally actively defending treason: ""If we as a country, if we care about the Constitution, if we believe in civil liberties, if we believe in those protections then the special counsel must be disbanded immediately," Fox News host Sean Hannity said. "And by the way – nobody else will say this – all charges against Paul Manafort and Gen. Michael Flynn need to be dropped.""
    Source .
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  9. ASmallBundleOfToothpicks

    ASmallBundleOfToothpicks Professor

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    The average person doesn't understand what an Overton window is, so they take your train of thought at face value.

    By labeling someone who is, in the most extreme interpretation, a left leaning populist "practically Trotsky," you lump them together with all of the actual radicals on the left- the real economic marxists, anarchocommunists, etc. etc. People are lazy thinkers. They'll put Sanders and communists in the same mental box. When they hear Sanders' rather milquetoast platform, they conflate that with actual communism.

    I know the prevailing political theory in Washington is that you can smear mud on Sanders by calling him a communist, but it's the other way around. You're gussying up communists by painting them as misunderstood Sanders-esque figures- no matter how ridiculous they may be.

    I think this may be the best news I've seen all day. It means Mueller's probably got juicy info. If there wasn't something worth prosecuting over, Hannity wouldn't be tripping over himself this badly.
     
  10. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I think DLP-ers are capable of understanding argumentative hyperbole. And it's not really that hyperbolic, anyway. In the American frame of reference, Sanders is a fringe whacko.
     
  11. ASmallBundleOfToothpicks

    ASmallBundleOfToothpicks Professor

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    Yeah, except that he's not a fringe whacko in an American context. He's barely a fringe whacko in a Washington DC context. Most of his positions are practically identical to any blue state Dem, and he's to the right of them on a few issues, most notably gun control. His voting record is only 20% or so off from Hillary Clinton's. The only significant points where he's on the edge of the Overton window are healthcare, his tax plan, and public education. To me, that speaks more to how warped the DC bubble is than to how crazy Sanders is. Too many people conflate his rhetoric and the hype around him with his policy positions.

    That said, it's not really about policing your language or whatever. It's more about pointing out how lazy thinking in government gets us stuck cleaning up the fallout of violent extremists. You're just the most recent government employee who made that point somewhere I tend to post.
     
  12. Invictus

    Invictus Fourth Champion

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    Okay, then point out any state in the US that adopted a third of his measures, state level. Please, show me a state that has:
    $15 dollars wage, free universal healthcare/education, enforcing by law that all wages at the same level are equal, lifted the cap on taxable income, 12 weeks of paid family and medical leave; two weeks of paid vacation; and 7 days of paid sick days, universal childcare and prekindergarten, Huge Free Housing programs, 50% estate tax, no tax breaks whatsoever for any large corporation, 40-50% tax on income, broadband and highspeed and roads all over the rural countryside. That's just a part of all his promises. I'm not even counting the protectionism that would make Trump's moves look like Milton Friedman (and would trigger endless WTO fights and disputes and trade wars).

    Hell, you might ask 'that's IMPOSSIBLE for a state to pay for!', well yeah, and you think the US Federal government would pay it how? With its millions of invisible citizens that pay their taxes only to the federal government? Because the federal gov has its own taxes, sure, but it sure as fucking hell ain't enough to nearly pay its current spending (and defunding the military is a retarded idea, pls don't start on that route).
     
  13. ASmallBundleOfToothpicks

    ASmallBundleOfToothpicks Professor

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    @Sesc Maybe it would be better to move this populist vs antipopulist stuff to a different thread? Seems a bit off topic, IMO.

    See, now this is just silly. Lets break this down.

    These are blatant misrepresentations of what Sanders supports. He wants to end offshore tax shelters, which is about as mainstream an issue as it gets. 40-50% tax was his top marginal rate. Hell, Sanders isn't even that protectionist- remember that fun little bill where he wanted to be able to import drugs from Canada for Medicare?

    If you're referring to his stance (and proposed bill) against wage discrimination based on gender/race/sexual orientation, then that is already federal law. His bill in support of that was redundant, but hardly wingnut territory. Otherwise, I'm drawing a blank on what you're referring to.

    You're correct that no single state has adopted wholesale Sanders plans, but there are several that have implemented some rather critical bits. Washington has seen reasonable success in raising the minimum wage to 15$ by then end of this year, IIRC. They're also moving toward his position on sick days. California is also steadily raising the minimum wage to 15$ by 2023, and after the initial flop of their single payer bill, it looks like round two is on the horizon. Maine and Vermont have had some success with Bernie's "Huge" housing plans, scaled down to their budget. Utah had bigger plans, but they appear to be dealing with some contractor issues. New York's got a push on Single Payer in State legislature now, 15$ minimum wage over 3 years for large employers (5 years for smaller ones), and has a form of publicly funded college education.

    However, that is largely beside the point.

    The point is that most of what Sanders supports, outside of his tax plans, a lot of democrats in state legislatures have supported. ~edit~ Your whole attack on Sanders platform of course ignores what the discussion was originally about, which was that by labeling everyone to the left of you as "fringe whackos" you make the actual fringe whackos seem more reasonable since they're painted with the same brush.

    You might, but the rest of us understand how economy of scale impacts organizational costs.

    Tell you what, I won't use my unlimited power to reduce the budget of the military if they can explain how they lost 6.5 trillion dollars and have no idea where it went. Source

    For the record, that missing money would pay for "free college" and Medicare for all easily.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  14. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I'd love to know that, too, considering that their budget is $570bn.
     
  15. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    Going off the source, it's not so much that the money's outright lost in as it is that they're horrible at keeping records and have been fudging the numbers to make everything add up properly for the end-of-year audit. Which is still pretty horrible and ought to get a whole lot of people fired, but doesn't mean there's trillions of extra dollars just sitting around doing nothing. It's not like there's a hidden vault somewhere full of trillions of dollars that the army has misplaced the treasure map to.

    US Defense spending, while insanely massive, is also the amount of spending needed to be a global power with military bases all over the place, a huge navy, several active military commitments of varying intensity across several continents, etc. It's hard to do huge reductions to the defense budget without also reducing the US's ability to have global reach, which would probably be widely seen as a sign the US is going from global hyperpower to a "mere" regional superpower.
     
  16. Invictus

    Invictus Fourth Champion

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    Obviously the US Military hasn't existed in the last fifty years and it's all a ploy by "Defense" Hawks to steal money and channel it to the industrial-military complex. Without the military.

    So each state implemented one or two of Sanders' promises, and the most ambitious ones were implemented by two of the three richest states in the US, incredibly above the US median output.

    That's because you don't understand how the law works or how Sanders proposal works. Current law forbids discrimination (lower pay because someone is X, so generic conditions). Sanders law wants to enforce equal pay, which means companies won't have the freedom to pay their employees what they want on an individual level. Which means you have to pay X for everyone or you're fined .

    His 40-50% tax is on every household above low middle class including upper middle class.

    Oh yes. From Canada. Remedies. That totally makes up for the fact he wants to end all international trade pacts, impose trade barriers against China and similar countries and wants to amp up subsidies for agriculture. But he wants pills from one country. That totally makes him not a real protectionist.
     
  17. ASmallBundleOfToothpicks

    ASmallBundleOfToothpicks Professor

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    Sure. To be fair, that is where democrats have some degree of power and resources.

    We're still talking about the Paycheck Fairness Act, right? First of all, Sanders didn't write the bill. His proposed bill is a carbon copy of the one from 2014, introduced by Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) after a string of similar bills were shut down by republican legislatures for years. Second, what you just described is pure Alex Jones level crazy... and not anything to with any bill I'm aware of.

    $500,000 is clearly a lower middle class income.

    And that's a flanderization of what Sanders wants.


    Should we have a hyphenated title for Sanders? It seems like any time I mention his name in a vaguely positive light I summon @Invictus and @Darth_Revan to chastise me. If we do, my vote is for He-Who's-Accent-Is-Too-Thick.
     
    h2o
  18. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Of course there's no vault. It's called Area 51.
     
  19. VanRopen

    VanRopen Unspeakable

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    Right, but it implies a high level of waste or graft.

    Iirc, pretty sure we’ve had the Pentagon do internal audits that suggested ways for the Army to streamline its bureaucracy, identifying tens of billions of dollars of waste - that it then buried.
     
  20. Invictus

    Invictus Fourth Champion

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    ""Reversing trade policies like NAFTA, CAFTA, and PNTR with China that have driven down wages and caused the loss of millions of jobs. If corporate America wants us to buy their products they need to manufacture those products in this country, not in China or other low-wage countries."

    You're so full of shit. The above is in Sanders site.

    "justification burden on employers as to why someone is paid less and allows workers to sue for punitive damages of wage discrimination."
    Aka open yourself to get sued without much proof out of the kazoo unless you pay people doing the same function the same thing.

    Form a club with Hannity for the misunderstood well meaning champions of the USA if you don't like people attacking someone full of shit and attacking your points when you defend said shit.

    I will note that with each new post you abandon more and more of your past points.
     
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