Dark Lord Potter Forums
Go Back   Dark Lord Potter Forums > Common Room > Politics
Donate Register Rules Library List IRC Chat FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Notices

Donate to DLP PatronusCharm Banner

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2009, 08:27 AM   #41
Tehan
Avatar of Khorne
 
Tehan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,648
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
-bitching about habeus corpus interjected with sad attempts at snark-
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
-defining habeus corpus issues as unlawful detainment-
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
-saying unlawful detainment isn't the issue-
Backpedal any harder and you'll break the land speed record in reverse, you barely-literate peasant.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
-throwing stones in a house that makes glass look sturdy-
__________________

Last edited by Tehan; 05-03-2009 at 08:29 AM.
Tehan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 09:40 AM   #42
meatzman2
Danced the Hempen Jig
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 526
You're right Tehan, I shouldn't have discarded the unlawful detainment issue so out of hand because it is the fundamental principle underlining habeus corpus. Unlawful detainment became an issue because the stay of execution was granted and not followed through.

The issue for me didn't seem at first her lawful or unlawful detainment, nor habeus corpus, rather it was the perhaps willful ignorance of a stay of execution. I threw the term out there in passing without realising that her stay of execution was so intimately tied into habeus corpus and so the two seemed unrelated. I stand admonished. My belief in habeus corpus necessitated that I believe she has the right to prove her detainment lawful or unlawful in front of the courts and it was the potentially willful ignorance of this process which angered me.

Tl;Dr Tehan saw the issue upon which I had based my opinion before I did, saw my own mocking and refutal of it and then schooled me on the damage I was dealing my own argument, again. I can now understand my own original opinion and anger more thoroughly (it hasn't changed).

Back to the bad snarkiness, less flame and more constructive aid would have been appreciated though Tehan, your method of instruction/burning as a means of driving me towards self-realization is a roundabout and I'm fairly certain unintentional process.

Oh and it damages my ego, which is not appreciated.

Last edited by meatzman2; 05-03-2009 at 09:44 AM.
meatzman2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 11:55 AM   #43
Tehan
Avatar of Khorne
 
Tehan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,648
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
WHARRGARBL
I do not know what you are saying here.

I recruited three people on IRC to try to translate for me. Two do not know what you are saying here. One hazarded a guess, which was more or less the opposite of my guess.

This is why I flame you instead of arguing with you. This is why you get away with a lot of the retarded things you say. Because you are very, very bad at English. No-one likes to debate anything with you because it's very difficult to interpret your words.

If you were Foreign I'd cut you some slack, but you aren't. You're an Englishman. You live in Australia. You went to an expensive private school. YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR BEING AS PAINFULLY CLUMSY WITH WORDS AS YOU ARE. LEARN TO SPEAK YOUR FUCKING MOTHER TONGUE ALREADY.
__________________
Tehan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 12:22 PM   #44
meatzman2
Danced the Hempen Jig
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 526
And I don't understand why you don't understand! It seems obvious me to me what I'm trying to communicate. I don't see where you lose the train of thought and ideas.

I apologize in any case as it seems to get you inordinately pissed off. I can only promise to work on it.
meatzman2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 12:38 PM   #45
Taure
God of Magic
~Soap Box~
 
Taure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,128
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Quote:
Unlawful detainment became an issue because the stay of execution was granted and not followed through.
That's where I lose you.

How does the fact that they ignored the stay of execution have anything to do with unlawful detainment?

It doesn't. A stay of execution is not a get out of jail free card. Thus this has nothing to do with habeus corpus.
Taure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 01:35 PM   #46
meatzman2
Danced the Hempen Jig
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taure
How does the fact that they ignored the stay of execution have anything to do with unlawful detainment?
The stay of execution was granted because of the possibility of unlawful detainment, arising from her repealing her confession.

Of course that is my belief. Whether the stay of execution has anything to do with this hinges on your belief as to whether or not it was a phony action to appease sentiment and the Iranians were going to do it anyway, or a consequence of the woman saying her confession was false. Her sentence was based on that confession, therefore by repudiating it she dismissed the basis for her imprisonment making it unlawful. You're not supposed to be able to detain and punish someone for a crime that you haven't verified they have committed. Thus you grant a stay of execution until you can prove the crime in light of the reasons for granting the stay of execution in the first place.

By ignoring the stay of execution they ignored her right to protest that hers might be a case of unlawful detainment and so avoid the death sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taure
It doesn't. A stay of execution is not a get out of jail free card. Thus this has nothing to do with habeus corpus.
Indeed a stay of execution is not a get out of jail free card, it is a "stop the train there might be an innocent woman on the tracks ahead" card. Habeus corpus is the right to undertake legal action as a defense against illegitimate imprisonment. In the case of the train metaphor you could describe it as checking the tracks to make sure they are clear.

She was denied that right to due process by being executed. Even if that process was just to turn up in court and have the motion, to have the confession rendered void, summarily thrown out. Thus habeus corpus, her right to protest unlawful detaintment through due process, and the stay of execution, the brief pause to conduct that process, are very much linked.

If her motion to repeal her confession had been thrown out and the sentence confirmed to be valid by a court, even if it was a kangaroo court, her sham rights to habeus corpus would have been technically satisfied.

I don't know if I have now made Tehan apoplectic with rage and can await summary flaming action or whether I have clarified what I meant.

Last edited by meatzman2; 05-03-2009 at 01:37 PM.
meatzman2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 01:49 PM   #47
Tehan
Avatar of Khorne
 
Tehan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,648
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
Her sentence was based on that confession, therefore by repudiating it she dismissed the basis for her imprisonment making it unlawful.
A confession is an event, not a state. Otherwise confessions would be utterly useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
By ignoring the stay of execution they ignored her right to protest that hers might be a case of unlawful detainment and so avoid the death sentence.
She had her day in court. She lost. She doesn't get another go just because they might be rethinking the punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
Indeed a stay of execution is not a get out of jail free card, it is a "stop the train there might be an innocent woman on the tracks ahead" card.
More like "stop the train, we might be rethinking hitting the woman we put on the tracks for a damn good reason, and might instead leave her tied up somewhere for the rest of her life".

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
Habeus corpus is the right to undertake legal action as a defense against illegitimate imprisonment.
Changing the word from unlawful to illegitimate doesn't make you magically less wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
If her motion to repeal her confession had been thrown out and the sentence confirmed to be valid by a court, even if it was a kangaroo court, her sham rights to habeus corpus would have been technically satisfied.
Aaaaaaaand there it is, the source of all this fuckwittery. Meatzman doesn't consider the Iranian courts legitimate, and therefore a photogenic, artsy woman getting killed by them is heinous murder. Good gods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman2 View Post
I don't know if I have now made Tehan apoplectic with rage and can await summary flaming action or whether I have clarified what I meant.
You clarified. You probably shouldn't have. It's even worse than my guesses.
__________________
Tehan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 01:53 PM   #48
Mindless
Big Boss
 
Mindless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United States
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,353
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Question. Does Iran, with a base in Islamic law, observe habeus corpus?
__________________
Sig made by Zombie
Mindless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 01:55 PM   #49
Tehan
Avatar of Khorne
 
Tehan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,648
DLP Supporter Donor Star
I was saving that little tidbit for a coup de gr‚ce, but no. No they do not.
__________________
Tehan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 02:09 PM   #50
Kensington
Dark Lord
 
Kensington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,178
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Send a message via AIM to Kensington
Better question: Why the fuck are you imposing common law upon Iran? The practice and interpretation of law varies wildly from nation to nation. Unless you are an immediate relative of a practitioner of law in Iran, don't interpret Iranian law for us.

My impression on the article: Sucks to be this girl. Too bad no one else has a say in what happens in Iran.
__________________

HIVE TULLY
SWARM. ANNIHILATION. TROUT.
Kensington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 02:16 PM   #51
Grubdubdub
Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensington View Post
My impression on the article: Sucks to be this girl. Too bad no one else has a say in what happens in Iran.
Sucks to be any Iranian girl.

I don't know if she's guilty or not, but if the base of the case against her was her confession, [which should'nt be enough, anyway,] and she takes it back, she should get a retrial.

Also, I don't know shit about Iranian law in particular, but a system where someone can 'accidentally dead woman' is fucked.
__________________


PokemonMaster
Grubdubdub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 02:25 PM   #52
Sesc
Moderator
Slytherin at Heart
 
Sesc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hbg., Germany
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,401
I accidentally the young Iranian girl.

/end thread
__________________
I refuse to give you excuses for yourself, she said. If what I did is your problem, walk away. But you canít, can you? Not any more than I can.

Secrets of the war, a murder and a fatal attraction. And he has to struggle as hard as he ever did, lest that all might prove to be his undoing.

Unatoned, a Harry Potter Noir Story

________________________________
FF.net :: By That Last Candle's Light :: The French Affair :: Unatoned


I heard that you like the bad girls, honey,
Is that true?
Sesc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 02:25 PM   #53
meatzman2
Danced the Hempen Jig
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehan View Post
A confession is an event, not a state. Otherwise confessions would be utterly useless.
Of course there's never any undue influence when confessions are given, certainly not, that would be improper. She claimed there were new circumstances influencing her confession, this might render it invalid. At some point a confession is decided to be definitive and it cannot be brought into doubt. You seem convinced that her first confession was infallible proof of her guilt. I cannot agree or disagree with you on that point due to lack of specific information. I am however a believer in courts of appeal for just this sort of scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehan View Post
She had her day in court. She lost. She doesn't get another go just because they might be rethinking the punishment.
This is where our points of view over the stay of execution differ, you seem convinced of her guilt, rather than maybe seeing it as the Iranians reconsidering the entire sentence in light of new evidence, provided by the suspect. This is because you consider her confession so definitive of her guilt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehan View Post
More like "stop the train, we might be rethinking hitting the woman we put on the tracks for a damn good reason, and might instead leave her tied up somewhere for the rest of her life".
That could well be the case. Perhaps that was their intention, we won't find out now because she wasn't allowed the same rights we are (my nihilism is failing me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehan View Post
Changing the word from unlawful to illegitimate doesn't make you magically less wrong.
It was meant to be a synonym, you can put unlawful there if you want. Furthermore magically less wrong in what? That I was wrong to disavow it's relevance to this case, in which case I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehan View Post
Aaaaaaaand there it is, the source of all this fuckwittery. Meatzman doesn't consider the Iranian courts legitimate, and therefore a photogenic, artsy woman getting killed by them is heinous murder. Good gods.
You seem to be labouring under the impression that I give a crap about this woman. I didn't even know of her before the BBC article that I mentioned in my post that started the thread.

Of course I don't consider the Iranian courts legitimate if when they grant a stay of execution, which they are either not prepared to enforce or to be so ineffective as to be potentially ignored on a whim. How can you respect any authority that is seemingly incapable of enforcing its own judgments?

How can you respect any court's legitimacy that is willing to judge a convict guilty, sentence her and then change her sentence in the light of global opinion? In the light of new evidence is acceptable, to pander to public opinion in a court of law is not.

Actually I take those back, I do not have enough knowledge to broadly disregard the entirety of the Iranian judiciary like that. Universally, I cannot respect any judicial, fuck that, any authority, incapable of rendering its commands effective.

I don't believe in this woman's innocence, neither do I believe in her guilt so arbitrarily obtained through a confession in light of what I know about Iran and the case. I don't know how I can emphasis that point anymore, save perhaps blowing it up in size 10 font. That is what I believe the stay of execution should have provided the opportunity for, giving, ideally, a neutral court a final chance to determine her fate in light of what she and her lawyer claimed was new evidence. I'm sorry for being idealistic in this matter, excuse me if I like to believe in the right of appeal and the rule of law.

[Edit] Holy crap like 5 posts while I was writing this. Iran doesn't have the same system of laws or rights, that doesn't mean I can't envision an ideal scenario where those laws and rights are enforced. If you're not going to care because they have a different legal system and it's therefore none of your business then I feel that nothing I can say or do (however ineptly as Tehan points out) will convince you to do so.

[Edit2] I'm prepared to let this thread die, I assume Tehan or someone else who doesn't understand me (through no fault of their own) wants the last word and pot shot, take it.

Last edited by meatzman2; 05-03-2009 at 02:29 PM.
meatzman2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 02:42 PM   #54
Amerision
God of Magic
Galactic Sheep Emperor
 
Amerision's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Gardens in the Desert Sand
Posts: 2,541
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubdubdub
Sucks to be any Iranian girl.
Cause all they see is my o-face.

Seriously, shut the fuck up. I've yet to see you comment on anything not anti-Iranian or pro-Israeli in DLP. You've never been to Iran, probably met under 10 Iranians in your entire life, and base your entire perception on your country's conflict with Iran.

As for this whole rape-conspiracy meatzman is putting out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatzman
Someone mentioned it earlier I think but there's a little conspiracy theorist in me who's thinking that they raped her and/or did other horrible stuff to her in prison and didn't want her to maybe have a chance to speak out.
It's funny that we applaud the notion that pedophiles will get assraped by the widely humored 'Bubba' but when a cute girl in an Iranian prison kills someone, all of the sudden it's proof of their backwardness.
__________________


I dream of gardens in the desert sand
I dream of love as time runs through my hand
I dream of fire
Those dreams are tied to a horse that will never tire
And in the flames
Her shadows play in the shape of a man's desire


Last edited by Amerision; 05-03-2009 at 02:54 PM.
Amerision is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 03:02 PM   #55
Vir
Centauri Ambassador
Prodigium Magus
 
Vir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,861
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Habeus Corpus means to bring before the court. That's it. It means that you have a legal right in common law to be brought before judge with all reasonable speed. Habeus Corpus only applies in the Western Legal Tradition.
Vir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 04:30 PM   #56
Chengar Qordath
Avatar
 
Chengar Qordath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,563
I'd have to agree with others that on the list of evil things done by the Iranian government this is pretty much a non-issue. That's not to mention that in this case the Iranians are likely to take some sort of internal action on the matter; prison officials ignoring orders from above doesn't go over well in any system of government.
__________________
Current Fics:
Souls Light (Dresden/Evangelion Crossover) @ DLP @ FFN
Forever! and My Little Denarians (Dresden/MLP:FiM Crossover)
Cutting Loose (Naruto): @FFN
Chengar Qordath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 04:48 PM   #57
Mercenary
Avatar
 
Mercenary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Francisco
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chengar Qordath View Post
I'd have to agree with others that on the list of evil things done by the Iranian government this is pretty much a non-issue. That's not to mention that in this case the Iranians are likely to take some sort of internal action on the matter; prison officials ignoring orders from above doesn't go over well in any system of government.
True. True.
I mean, I'm not angry over the fact that she got executed. You confess to murder here, you die. That's not what I'm upset about. I'm upset about the apparent lack of communication between their court and prison. Though it might be a paperwork or miscommunication its still pretty fucked up.
__________________

Fire Always Make It Better
Mercenary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 05:02 PM   #58
Chime
Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,766
I wouldn't have posted here weren't I noticed that Meatz was... banned? What for? This thread? Pretty funny if that's the case.

As for the girl... I don't know what to say. While it's proper to express condolences, this case seems insignificant. An unjust execution is probably common enough in Iran, and at best, this is merely just another tiny needle of straw upon the camel's back. It's a long way to go from here, though.
Chime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:00 PM   #59
White Rabbit
Headmaster
 
White Rabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Arkansas
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 975
DLP Supporter Donor Star
Probably because of this http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=11309. Also the little notice, keep it civil or I'll kick your ass - Mid thing.

The girl got executed. Their country is their country, we can't knock down their door and tell them to knock that shit off. She was underage which is apparently against international law. Hardly anyone follows international law unless it's the major don't attack any other country kind of areas.

/Beating horse.
__________________
Internet Tough for 3 Years and Counting
Mustapha Mond is to John the Savage ::: I am to You
White Rabbit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 07:26 AM   #60
Grubdubdub
Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amerision View Post
Cause all they see is my o-face.

Seriously, shut the fuck up. I've yet to see you comment on anything not anti-Iranian or pro-Israeli in DLP. You've never been to Iran, probably met under 10 Iranians in your entire life, and base your entire perception on your country's conflict with Iran.
I'm basing this off the thread, you idiot. People who can be accidentally executed are screwed, no matter how you look at it. You say I'm pro-isreali and anti-Iranian. Well, duh. Iran being pretty much the opposite of what I think a country should be and me living in Israel can cause that.

Also, I didn't post 700 political posts, so if you saw only 10 of my total posts, it's hardly my fault. My way of thinking is a bit deeper than 'Go Isreal'.

Also, no that it really has anything to do with my believes, I've met more than 10 Iranians. Note that when I criticize the country it refers to the government, not the regular people.
__________________


PokemonMaster
Grubdubdub is offline   Reply With Quote


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RIRA Executes Two Soldiers Xiph0 Politics 37 03-17-2009 04:13 PM
The Ultimate Escape Artist by Dogbertcarroll - T MrINBN Recycling Bin 18 07-09-2008 09:29 AM
Marauder Era Artist Janus General Discussion 13 06-26-2008 05:24 AM
Something for Vash about his new young sibling Midknight General Discussion 6 07-03-2006 05:58 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2005 - 2011 Darklordpotter.net. All rights reserved.
No personal intellectual property on this site may be used without the credit and express permission of the respective authors.