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Old 06-27-2017, 01:07 PM   #1581
Hush
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Alright, so what if you're already an animagus and not transformed when you get bitten?
I reckon you'd lose your animagus form, right? Otherwise you'd be able to turn into your animal form on full moons and avoid turning into a werewolf, same way only being bitten in human form is contagious. Or does that sound ridiculous?
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:12 PM   #1582
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I don't have the books on hand, but iirc the answer is no. Animagi are immune from werewolf bites when transformed. It's safe to be around werewolves when transformed - the curse seems to affect only humans.
Here is what canon says:

Quote:
“They couldn’t keep me company as humans, so they kept me company as animals,” said Lupin. “A werewolf is only a danger to people. They sneaked out of the castle every month under James’s Invisibility Cloak. They transformed… Peter, as the smallest, could slip beneath the Willow’s attacking branches and touch the knot that freezes it. They would then slip down the tunnel and join me. Under their influence, I became less dangerous. My body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while I was with them.”

“Hurry up, Remus,” snarled Black, who was still watching Scabbers with a horrible sort of hunger on his face.

“I’m getting there, Sirius, I’m getting there… well, highly exciting possibilities were open to us now that we could all transform. Soon we were leaving the Shrieking Shack and roaming the school grounds and the village by night.

Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check. I doubt whether any Hogwarts students ever found out more about the Hogwarts grounds and Hogsmeade than we did… And that’s how we came to write the Marauder’s Map, and sign it with our nicknames. Sirius is Padfoot. Peter is Wormtail. James was Prongs.”
Pottermore then says

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A wolf is unlikely to attack a human except under exceptional circumstances. The werewolf, however, targets humans almost exclusively and poses very little danger to any other creature.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:23 PM   #1583
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Looks like the only real explanation is that Lycanthropy only effects humans. That begs the question of what the true nature of transfiguration is. Like, if your turning a book into a rabbit, it's a rabbit, not not a real rabbit? Is someone who is an animagus no longer 100% human. Is Minerva McGonagall a halfbreed? I feel like there is an important distinction between what is actually a real animal, and what is a magical facsimile. Personally, I don't thing the transfiguration should be making real animals (and I won't be bringing up the dumb argument of transfiguring something into a human). However, my story benefits me more if an animagus can't be afflicted even while in human form, and I think canon kind of supports that, rather than supporting the fake animals thing. Like, Dementors don't "see" Sirius as well when he is transformed, and I think McGonagall mentions somewhere that her diet is slightly altered (though that's probably a fanon thing)

-edit- FWIW the scene I'm working on has a werewolf attacking Harry, Harry turns into his animagus form to fight it. He gets bit while in it, and once the fight is over, he transforms back.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:41 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by Glimmervoid View Post
~snip~
I think that canon and Pottermore seem to imply that werewolf bites affect only humans. As in, they do not affect anything that isn't human at the moment. If you've been transformed into an animal at that time, then that's that. You're an animal and a werewolf cannot turn you. After all, James, Sirius and Peter might have been Gryffindor, but had there been the slightest danger of them being bitten and then subsequently transforming into Werewolves, it would have been mentioned that it's being done at great personal risk to them or something. In fact, the only risk mentioned in canon seems to be the act of becoming an animagus being illegal.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think that the animagus transformation in canon (and even canon in general) seems to metaphysically treat the body and soul as two separate objects. You need not transform the soul if you transform the body. There are three instances of this particular philosophy showing in the books. Harry's soul travelling to purgatory to meet Dumbledore before returning, ghosts which are mere imprints of themselves (souls in a sense), and the animagus transformation, in which your body transforms completely, but your soul remains unchanged. The last one is confirmed by the fact that Rita Skeeter could take interviews while in her bug form.

A fourth example of the duality of soul and body are the horcruxes. Diary-Tom Riddle had the same body as he had at age sixteen, though merely a fraction of the soul remained. Similarly, Lord Voldemort had the same body at his resurrection as he did when he tried to off Harry. Rather, he had a new body, but it seems to have been reconstructed according to how he was back then, which is how Fudge recognised him easily at the end of OoTP. However, he'd split his soul again and a portion of it had gone off to merge with Harry between these two events.

So I would say that Harry turning into an animagus and fighting a werewolf makes sense simply because Harry is a soul who has a body, to steal from Jim Butcher. Werewolves do not affect the soul, their bite affects only the body. If you don't have a human body when you get bitten, how do you get affected?
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Old 06-27-2017, 03:15 PM   #1585
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Still doesn't answer what if you're in your human form when you get bit, and what happens afterwards. Honestly, with your example, I'd say it's the exact opposite. You have a human soul, and that is unchanging no matter what form you take. Then again, that's kind of a philosophical thing, or maybe just a metaphysical magical thing because somehow animagi retain the ability to function despite your brain being shrunken down to a tiny size. Then, the answer would be that becoming an animagus would fundamentally altar your soul in some way. Doesn't really seem like a great answer to me.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:06 PM   #1586
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Still doesn't answer what if you're in your human form when you get bit, and what happens afterwards. Honestly, with your example, I'd say it's the exact opposite. You have a human soul, and that is unchanging no matter what form you take. Then again, that's kind of a philosophical thing, or maybe just a metaphysical magical thing because somehow animagi retain the ability to function despite your brain being shrunken down to a tiny size. Then, the answer would be that becoming an animagus would fundamentally altar your soul in some way. Doesn't really seem like a great answer to me.
You have a human body in your human form, you should become a werewolf then. What that does to your animagus form is something we can speculate on till the cows come home.

I think that canon supports the idea of the unchanging soul through dualism, but that's just my interpretation of it. That link is to wikipedia, and the pertinent passage is here:
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Substance dualism is a type of dualism most famously defended by René Descartes, which states that there are two kinds of foundation: mental and body. This philosophy states that the mental can exist outside of the body, and the body cannot think. Substance dualism is important historically for having given rise to much thought regarding the famous mind–body problem. Substance dualism is a philosophical position compatible with most theologies which claim that immortal souls occupy an independent "realm" of existence distinct from that of the physical world.
I equate mind, or the seat of thought, with soul in HP. Generally, you retain your thinking skills as an animagus, so you keep your soul. But you don't as a werewolf, so you temporarily lose it after transforming, maybe? Since having a soul is fundamentally a property of sapient beings, you can argue that the full-moon werewolf form lacks a soul because it isn't sapient. Or, depending on whether you percieve the full-moon werewolf form to be sapient or not, you can also argue that the soul fundamentally changes when one is bitten or transforms.

Regardless, this is becoming too long for this thread. Maybe you can start a new thread if you want to discuss this further or move it to PMs?
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:51 AM   #1587
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@Genghiz Khan, so if you retain your human soul when in your animagus form, how come the dementors weren't able to track Sirius just as easily when transformed?
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:05 AM   #1588
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... if you retain your human soul when in your animagus form, how come the dementors weren't able to track Sirius just as easily when transformed?
That's not totally true, iirc. The dementors thought that Sirius's dog form was the same as his human form, but that he was losing his mind because the emotions were less human. That would imply that they sense emotions (maybe in the form of brainwaves?), not souls. Sirius was able to excape from Azkaban because he was able to slip out using his animagus form and kept his head because he concentrated on his innocence. I'm sure there was no tracking charm or anything on him, so the dementors were unable to tell where he was. After all, dementors don't distinguish between people very well.
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:56 PM   #1589
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Were Molly and Author part of the Order of the Phoenix in the first war? I know the Prewett twins (Molly's brothers) were part, but I really don't think we see any evidence that the couple were actually participating. Especially since Molly would have had very small children at that time. I always felt that they received an invitation because of Ron and the family being so close to Harry plus Molly's brothers died for the cause. Anyone know for sure?
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:29 AM   #1590
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In OOTP chapter 9, Moody shows Harry a photo of the original Order and lists off the members.

His list is: Moody, Albus Dumbledore, Diggle, McKinnon, Frank Longbottom, Alice Longbottom, Vance, Fenwick, Bones, Podmore, Dearborn, Hagrid, Doge, Gideon Prewett, Fabian Prewett, Aberforth Dumbledore, Meadowes, and Sirius Black.

We know from the narration in the next paragraph James, Lily, and Peter Pettigrew also appear in the photo, but Moody doesn't mention them. However, given that Molly and Arthur aren't mentioned either by Moody or the narration, it seems safe to conclude they were not original members.
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:55 PM   #1591
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Got some questions on transfiguration.

If I transfigure a cat into a human, does the cat have a human intelligence?

If I transfigure Malfoy into a ferret, does the ferret have Malfoy's intelligence?

Does an animal transfigured into a human have the same biological functions as a human? Lifespan?

Does a human transfigured into dog have a human's lifespan or dog's lifespan?
@Taure you probably could give the best answer.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:23 PM   #1592
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Most of those do not have clear answers, but one of them does.

Quote:
If I transfigure a cat into a human, does the cat have a human intelligence?
It's not clear that animal -> human transfiguration is possible. Certainly we have never seen it happen nor has it been mentioned as possible. Human transfiguration is presented as the most difficult form of transfiguration, and we only ever see human -> human transfiguration, and only of specific features at that.

It's worth considering that the HP world is dualist, so a person is not just a body but also a soul. So even if you could make a physical human with transfiguration, they would be like a Dementor victim (an idea I utilised in Lords of Magic).

Quote:
If I transfigure Malfoy into a ferret, does the ferret have Malfoy's intelligence?
The ferret has ferret intelligence. This is the fundamental difference between transfiguring a person into an animal and being an animagus: the ability to retain the human mind. (Dumbledore's commentary to Tales of Beedle the Bard).

Quote:
Does an animal transfigured into a human have the same biological functions as a human? Lifespan?
Again, not clear that it is possible. But yes, transfigured things are physically identical to a naturally occurring version of that object. Transfiguration is not an illusion or some kind of magical construct but rather a genuine change to the thing's fundamental physical structure.

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Does a human transfigured into dog have a human's lifespan or dog's lifespan?
Unclear. Physically, the thing is biologically a dog so should have a dog's lifespan, but it is unclear how having a human soul (and magic) will affect that.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:17 PM   #1593
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Could Harry have been a Parselmouth without the horcrux?

From what I remember, the Peverells were descended from Salazar and the Gaunts and Potter's both traced their lineage to the Peverells. So isn't it entirely possible members of the Potter family could have been Parselmouths?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:28 PM   #1594
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It's still possible, but it's never explicitly said that the Peverells descend from Slytherin, only that the Gaunts descend from both the Peverells and Slytherin. I don't think it is even clear which ones are the oldest.

Of course, with all the Pureblood families being inter-connected, you could still say that basically everyone has Slytherin blood.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:42 PM   #1595
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The Peverells were never said to be descended from Slytherin. However, considering that the Gaunts only married their cousins... and the only cousins we know they had are the Potters... there might still be some Parseltongue heritage there. I don't think it's strong enough evidence to be canon, but it can be a justification if you need it for a fic.
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