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Old 12-20-2016, 02:43 PM   #21
The Iron Rose
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Gunna go out on a limb and say that Andrei Karlov is probably not the next Archduke Ferdinand.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:09 PM   #22
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Gonna go out on a limb and say the geopolitical situation of 1914 doesn't exactly (or remotely) match the current one either.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:13 PM   #23
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Turkey is part of NATO. That's more than enough reason for Putin to opt away from open warfare.
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Old 12-20-2016, 04:00 PM   #24
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Russia carpet bombs Aleppo. A diplomat is assassinated in revenge. Nothing unpredictable.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:03 PM   #25
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History showed us already that small action like this can lead to war. Why is that you are sure that there wouldn't be a war between Russia and Turkey. Cuz last few years showed anything but that (both countries are willing to use force).

I think most ppl forget that wars do happen and they happen in Europe. In 1914 it was started by terrorist act. And in late 30' there was this one British Idiot that was like "we can talked this out bro" I am sorry to say that was not a good idea.

At the moment this act of terror is tragedy, but it can change and I do not like how it can change. Looking at history and that is not a far history (last 100 years or so) has me worried. We should get ready for war or it we will repeat the story that Europe knows very well.

PS. sorry for my poor English
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Honestly? It feels like you don't quite understand the current geopolitical situation.

Yes, wars happen. Yes, wars happened in Europe. Yes, both Turkey and Russia are willing to wage war to further their ends. However, the differences are that this is 2016, and Turkey is in NATO.

In 1914, a European war a horrific proposition, but also something everyone expected to happen eventually and not something anyone hadn't already seen recently. In 1939, well, everyone involved had seen how bad the last one got and didn't really want another war on the same scale while still licking their wounds, but was still something they could conceivably do. In 1945, everything changed. The Atomic Bomb was invented. Then, in 1949, the Soviets got one for themselves. Now war has changed in a fundamental way. A serious, direct war between any of the major powers on the globe is a losing proposition for everyone involved, no matter how outclassed one of them might be by the other.

And Turkey is in NATO. This means that if Russia invades Turkey, Russia has made a formal declaration of war on the United States of America. This ends in everyone dying in atomic hellfire. Both sides are aware of this, and are aware that The Literal End of The World is not something you can win.

So, yeah. It doesn't matter that both sides are willing to use force. Russia can pick all the fights it wants with unaligned eastern European nations. They can't really fight back, even in a conventional war. They will not do the same to a member of NATO.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:49 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Fiat View Post
Honestly? It feels like you don't quite understand the current geopolitical situation.

Yes, wars happen. Yes, wars happened in Europe. Yes, both Turkey and Russia are willing to wage war to further their ends. However, the differences are that this is 2016, and Turkey is in NATO.

In 1914, a European war a horrific proposition, but also something everyone expected to happen eventually and not something anyone hadn't already seen recently. In 1939, well, everyone involved had seen how bad the last one got and didn't really want another war on the same scale while still licking their wounds, but was still something they could conceivably do. In 1945, everything changed. The Atomic Bomb was invented. Then, in 1949, the Soviets got one for themselves. Now war has changed in a fundamental way. A serious, direct war between any of the major powers on the globe is a losing proposition for everyone involved, no matter how outclassed one of them might be by the other.

And Turkey is in NATO. This means that if Russia invades Turkey, Russia has made a formal declaration of war on the United States of America. This ends in everyone dying in atomic hellfire. Both sides are aware of this, and are aware that The Literal End of The World is not something you can win.

So, yeah. It doesn't matter that both sides are willing to use force. Russia can pick all the fights it wants with unaligned eastern European nations. They can't really fight back, even in a conventional war. They will not do the same to a member of NATO.
While I largely agree with your point, I could see Russia playing a little of brinksmanship to test how firm NATO's commitment is to Turkey; relations have been a bit shaky lately. He's certainly not going to do anything that might cause nuclear war, but testing the waters with a little nudge or two to see if there's anything he could exploit wouldn't be out of character for him.
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:50 AM   #27
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The video was pretty intense to watch, and then seeing the aftermath pictures. Must be nuts to kill someone so publicly and then just waiting to get shot for it.


Seems to me like allah is doing
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Old 12-21-2016, 02:24 AM   #28
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if anything, the result seems to be rapprochement:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/wo...luding-us.html
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:12 PM   #29
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A turkish friend of mine is claiming that the shooter was a Gulen supporter. Do we have any information to support or deny this claim?
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:57 PM   #30
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A turkish friend of mine is claiming that the shooter was a Gulen supporter. Do we have any information to support or deny this claim?
Nothing I'm aware of, though given Edrogan tends to blame Gulen and his supporters for anything and everything, that's no surprise.
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Old 12-21-2016, 06:25 PM   #31
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Nothing I'm aware of, though given Edrogan tends to blame Gulen and his supporters for anything and everything, that's no surprise.
Erdogan would call anyone Gulen supporter this days. He is an unreliable narrotor. He always was. Apparently assasin was a sleeper Al-Nusra(Al Kaide brach in Syria) agent.
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Old 12-21-2016, 07:41 PM   #32
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We will never forget the horrors this year has brought us.... But remember Trump/Kanye 2020!
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:53 AM   #33
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Erdogan would call anyone Gulen supporter this days. He is an unreliable narrotor. He always was. Apparently assasin was a sleeper Al-Nusra(Al Kaide brach in Syria) agent.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by this point if Edrogan got caught in the rain without an umbrella, he'd immediately start going on about the Gulenist plot to assassinate him by drowning.
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Old 12-22-2016, 01:17 PM   #34
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Erdogan would call anyone Gulen supporter this days.
True, but it doesn't make it untrue in this case.
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Apparently assasin was a sleeper Al-Nusra(Al Kaide brach in Syria) agent.
Do you have a link for this information? If not, it is hard to accept as facts.
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Old 12-22-2016, 06:36 PM   #35
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Do you have a link for this information? If not, it is hard to accept as facts.
Link from SputnikTR. And apparently assassin had some propaganda books of al qaeda in his home along with some books of Gulen.
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Old 12-22-2016, 07:29 PM   #36
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Link from SputnikTR. And apparently assassin had some propaganda books of al qaeda in his home along with some books of Gulen.

LOL Sputnik.

Ideally I'd love a news source that isn't a mouthpiece for the Russian State.
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Old 12-22-2016, 08:02 PM   #37
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From the article, which by the way appears like an extremely untrustworthy source - [Mevlüt Mert Altıntaş, who shot at Karlov, shouted in Arabic slogan that he first belonged to El Nusra and then "Do not forget Aleppo, do not forget Syria.]

The interesting part - [... shouted in Arabic slogan that he first belonged to El Nusra]

Now as I do not understand Turkish, I could choose to believe this source. Problem is, that every other source that I have read, from the NYTimes and across the board, claims that he shouted - [God is great!” and “don’t forget Aleppo, don’t forget Syria!”] NYT.

And not, as the article claims - "I belong to Al-Nusra..." - That we can actually watch the entire shooting, and I know that some of us did, makes it relatively easy to prove if it is fact or fiction.

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And apparently assassin had some propaganda books of al qaeda in his home along with some books of Gulen.
So there is a link to Gulen then? He had Gulen books in his home after all... Or so you claim, yet again not posting your source. It isn't mentioned in the article.
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Old 12-23-2016, 01:46 AM   #38
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Gulenism wouldn't make sense, it's not a jihadi organization, which shouting 'allahu akhbar' would imply... Nor would some Kurdish organization, although it'd be more likely. Nusrah wouldn't be that far-fetched...but not exactly the clear choice either.

We just have to wait and see. It looked very....spur of the moment, when you watch the video. As if he snapped and did it because he could, not that it was some diabolical scheme.
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Old 12-23-2016, 07:32 AM   #39
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From the article, which by the way appears like an extremely untrustworthy source - [Mevlüt Mert Altıntaş, who shot at Karlov, shouted in Arabic slogan that he first belonged to El Nusra and then "Do not forget Aleppo, do not forget Syria.]

The interesting part - [... shouted in Arabic slogan that he first belonged to El Nusra]

Now as I do not understand Turkish, I could choose to believe this source. Problem is, that every other source that I have read, from the NYTimes and across the board, claims that he shouted - [God is great!” and “don’t forget Aleppo, don’t forget Syria!”] NYT.

And not, as the article claims - "I belong to Al-Nusra..." - That we can actually watch the entire shooting, and I know that some of us did, makes it relatively easy to prove if it is fact or fiction.

So there is a link to Gulen then? He had Gulen books in his home after all... Or so you claim, yet again not posting your source. It isn't mentioned in the article.
Yeah i get your point and reasoning but I am living under the Erdoğan regime for to long and know that the mainstream media is completely Erdoğan's puppet. Gulen movement is not a jihadist organisation, they can't gain a thing with this murder. If this murder is really work of Gulenists then this will be their very first. On the other hand Syrian opponents(al-Nusra) just lost control of Aleppo to Russian-backed Assad. Turkey and Russia decided to meet at a moderate point in the Syrian politics. Assad's winning and Al-Nusra losing badly. At least with Nusra's motivations this murder means revenge.

Gulen is in Pennsylvania under American protection despite Erdoğan's protests. Erdoğan wants him very badly. He will use this murder to make sure Gulen's back to Turkey. It's a shit show really. As a Turk i'm ashamed and angry because either way(nusra or gulenist) one of our police officer is/was a terrorist. It took Erdogan only 14 years to destroy every single good thing in this country. As for Sputnik's reliability; i think it's more reliable then Erdogan's puppet.
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:30 AM   #40
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At this point the CIA wouldn't sanction Gulen doing a damn thing, so I'm not really sure why we're even giving the theory the time of day. You're quite right, rghh. It's even less believable than the Nusra angle, which I discount because it's not really their style.
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