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Old 01-04-2017, 01:15 PM   #141
Azira
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You mean the guy whose location is Sand Niggers Everywhere doesn't understand how reality works? Shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
I don't understand how reality works? I live this reality, you're the one sitting in your tower condemning and judging things you don't understand. Palestinians and Israeli's should be judged and treated equally. Anything else is bigotry/racism.

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Just don't bother mate. There are a few notable Israelis who honestly and truthfully speak about reality, i.e. the systematic oppression of Palestine into effectively concentration camp life - but they're extremely few and far inbetween. The vast majority will continue to live in their delusion no matter what you say.
A great post that added absolutely nothing to the discussion.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:26 PM   #142
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Treating of Arab citizens as subcitizens? If anything, they're treated better. They don't have to serve IDF like I did for 3 years, they get to start life 3 years ahead of everyone else. You have to be joking.


Google the soft bigotry of low expectations. That's what you're doing here. Arab Israelis != Palestinians.

Palestine doesn't do it's own tax collection because their leaders end up stealing it and retiring to Dubai with billions. Google Arafats fortune, google Khaled Mashal.

Please educate yourself before spouting nonsense, especially in this sub.
So the superior Jewish State will teach the lowly Arabs how to better govern? Israel doesn't want Arabs serving en masse because it doesn't trust its own citizens. Now why would that be? 60% of the Jewish population in Israel think it should receive preferential treatment from the State. They also defend Israel as a Jewish State, which is not what was agreed on.

Finally, settlements constructions were never stopped on decades and now Israel wants to flagrantly absorb such territories. When the entire world tells you to stop being a shit, you don't double down.

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/i...vided-society/
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:45 PM   #143
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So the superior Jewish State will teach the lowly Arabs how to better govern? Israel doesn't want Arabs serving en masse because it doesn't trust its own citizens. Now why would that be? 60% of the Jewish population in Israel think it should receive preferential treatment from the State. They also defend Israel as a Jewish State, which is not what was agreed on.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lood-pact.html

Arabs serve in the IDF. Most are exempt because obviously it causes issues, like other sects of society are (Haredim, the disabled), but those who request to serve, are gladly accepted. Muslims have risen to the highest ranks in the IDF, and are never discriminated against.

Israeli Arabs enjoy full rights in Israel, and claiming anything else is just an absolute lie.

"Doesn't trust it's own citizens" - What? Every Israeli citizen, EVER SINGLE ONE, can vote in elections, serve in the army, contribute to the economy, do anything.

Stop. Perpetuating. Lies.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:41 PM   #144
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A great post that added absolutely nothing to the discussion.
What discussion? The 'woe-is-me, Israel is always the victim' discussion, where you try to justify being judgemental of Palestine because they're apparently 'equal'?

Yeah nah, when Israel systematically oppresses and abuses a people, starves them, murders women and children, contains them in ever smaller pockets of land while aggressively expanding via illegal settlements...it doesn't get to then claim 'equality'.
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:00 PM   #145
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lood-pact.html

Arabs serve in the IDF. Most are exempt because obviously it causes issues, like other sects of society are (Haredim, the disabled), but those who request to serve, are gladly accepted. Muslims have risen to the highest ranks in the IDF, and are never discriminated against.

Israeli Arabs enjoy full rights in Israel, and claiming anything else is just an absolute lie.

"Doesn't trust it's own citizens" - What? Every Israeli citizen, EVER SINGLE ONE, can vote in elections, serve in the army, contribute to the economy, do anything.

Stop. Perpetuating. Lies.
What about en masse did you not read? Also, lovely. There's a difference between actual reality and what's on paper. Blacks in the US North could vote. We're theoreticslly full citizens.

Arabs in Israel are forced to live in ghettos. And half Israel population wants to kick them out.

We can always play ball and see how Israel treats Palestinians under occupied territories, who are de facto Israeli citizens. Do you really claim they have full rights? Same as any Israeli citizens?
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:32 PM   #146
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Holy shit you're dumb.
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:55 PM   #147
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Holy shit you're dumb.
Holy shit you're all bluster and no argument. Let's look at your arguments:
'Israel is a perfectly working democracy', ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, 'Israel is a perfect democracies and everyone is fully equal, despite everything pointing out agaisnt that', ad hominem, ad hominem. Not once you were able to come up with facts or an actual argument to defend your claims.
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Old 01-04-2017, 05:01 PM   #148
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I actually won't argue with you because I did provide facts, but you dare not open your eyes to them. Continue on with your life, being an ignorant little sheep as you are.

"What is in reality vs what is on paper" Yeah, my reality is the one I experience and I am telling you about, yet you refuse to believe it. You think Muslims in the IDF is some sort of fiction? Arab citizens being equal in every way is fiction? Please.

I'd like to hear about these Arab ghettos inside Israel, also. Source it or shut the fuck up.

Palestinians who live in the West Bank or Gaza are not citizens of Israel. Those who have a Citizenship of Israel, are citizens of Israel. It's actually a pretty simple concept.
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Old 01-04-2017, 05:40 PM   #149
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I actually won't argue with you because I did provide facts, but you dare not open your eyes to them. Continue on with your life, being an ignorant little sheep as you are.

"What is in reality vs what is on paper" Yeah, my reality is the one I experience and I am telling you about, yet you refuse to believe it. You think Muslims in the IDF is some sort of fiction? Arab citizens being equal in every way is fiction? Please.

I'd like to hear about these Arab ghettos inside Israel, also. Source it or shut the fuck up.

Palestinians who live in the West Bank or Gaza are not citizens of Israel. Those who have a Citizenship of Israel, are citizens of Israel. It's actually a pretty simple concept.
Oh no, they just live unders Israeli military, pay taxes to Israel, are managed by Israeli government much more than whatever the PA might say, etc

Violent Arab ghetto shows Israel's seamy underside

Palestinians in Israel: Trapped in the ghetto

"The government estimates that just over 50 percent of Arab families live under the poverty line."
I want you to read this and tell that's what full citizenship is like that.

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According to a study commissioned by the Arab Association of Human Rights entitled "Silencing Dissent," over the past three years, eight of nine of these Arab Knesset members have been beaten by Israeli forces during demonstrations.[144] Most recently according to the report, legislation has been passed, including three election laws [e.g., banning political parties], and two Knesset related laws aimed to "significantly curb the minority [Arab population] right to choose a public representative and for those representatives to develop independent political platforms and carry out their duties".[145]

"Silencing Dissent Report" (PDF). Archived from the original on 27 September 2007. Retrieved 2007-09-27. , p. 8.
Jump up ^ "Silencing Dissent Report" (PDF). Archived from the original on 27 September 2007. Retrieved 2007-09-27.
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Human Rights Watch has charged that cuts in veteran benefits and child allowances based on parents' military service discriminate against Arab children: "The cuts will also affect the children of Jewish ultra-orthodox parents who do not serve in the military, but they are eligible for extra subsidies, including educational supplements, not available to Palestinian Arab children."[206]

According to the Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[207]

Although the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world, The Guardian reports that in the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its budget for healthcare facility development.[207]

In March 2010, a report released by several Israeli civil rights groups stated that the current Knesset was "the most racist in Israeli history" with 21 bills proposed in 2008 and 2009 that would discriminate against the country's Arab minority.[208]

A preliminary report commissioned by Israel’s Courts Administration and the Israel Bar Association found in 2011 that Israeli Arabs are more likely than Israeli Jews to be convicted of crimes after being charged, more likely to be given custodial sentences, and were given longer sentences. It did not account for "mitigating or aggravating circumstances, prior criminal record and the convict’s gender".
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Israeli law also discriminates between Jewish and Arab residents of Jerusalem regarding rights to recover property owned before the dislocations created by the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[224] The 1950 Absentees Property Law said that any property within post-war Israel which was owned by an Arab who had left the country between 29 November 1947 and 19 May 1948, or by a Palestinian who had merely been abroad or in area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to 1 September 1948, lost all rights to that property. Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes by Jewish or Israeli forces, before and during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, but remained within the borders of what would become Israel, that is, those currently known as Arab citizens of Israel, are deemed present absentees by the legislation. Present absentees are regarded as absent by the Israeli government because they left their homes, even if they did not intend to leave them for more than a few days, and even if they did so involuntarily.[225]

Following the 1967 Six-Day War in which Israel occupied the West Bank, from where it annexed East Jerusalem, Israel then passed in 1970 the Law and Administration Arrangements Law allowing for Jews who had lost property in East Jerusalem and the West Bank during the 1948 war to reclaim it.[224] Palestinian residents of Jerusalem (absentees) in the same positions, and Arab Israelis (present absentees), who owned property in West Jerusalem or other areas within the state of Israel, and lost it as a result of the 1948 war, cannot recover their properties. Israeli legislation, therefore, allows Jews to recover their land, but not Arabs
Your Prime Minister football team has a SA version of its fans running around terrorising people, and very little was done, de facto.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:49 AM   #150
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Azira.. just stop man...
There are Arab citizens of Israel and there are the Palestinians. While the Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish citizens they do suffer from racial discrimination, specifically when they try to find a normal job and rent/buy an apartment.
Palestinians, as mentioned countless times before, suffer from the occupation and all of its consequences. The PA, while not exactly Israeli friendly at the moment do cooperate with IDF and other security forces, their police stop many attacks and share intelligence.
About the trial - happy that justice was done, hopefully he will receive a lengthy sentence and not be pardoned. Many times, Israelis proclaim that they have the only democracy in Middle East and the "the world's most moral army" (which is quite illogical statement); it is time then to stop attacking the democracy in the country (courts, free press) and the high ranking officers in the army who just try to uphold the values on which it was built.
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Old 01-31-2017, 09:19 AM   #151
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http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...e-Mount-480004

I'll just start dropping these links here as I come across them, hopefully we can generate meaningful discussion.

I wonder when anyone will care that Palestinians are literally trying to strong arm history into being rewritten to favorably ratify their claims and to oust Jewish people from Israel. I wonder.
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Old 01-31-2017, 12:29 PM   #152
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Aaaand... It's gone... Thank god, what a shitpost. Thank you moderator. And you shitposter - You know who you are.

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I wonder when anyone will care that Palestinians are literally trying to strong arm history into being rewritten to favorably ratify their claims and to oust Jewish people from Israel. I wonder.
We are many that care very much, indeed. Though, it might be hard to spot, and I wouldn't hold that against you, considering the trend on media.
This story is like the holocaust denial all over again, now from an UN organ. I am not at all surprised to see mainly muslim countries voting against this. Muslim countries using UN against democratic nations to unravel history and rewrite it. Fantastic!

Resolutions like these seriously damage the credibility and legitimacy of the UN. The more the Islamic agenda is pushed the worse it gets...

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Alan Dershowitz:
[Hezbollah’s aim is not to “end the occupation of Palestine,” or even to “liberate all of Palestine.” Its goal is to kill the world’s Jews. Listen to the words of its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah: “If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.)]Link
Who needs enemies like these when you got friends like Obama? This is what the Jews of Israel is up against. If Israel falls you can be certain there won't many Jews left in a hundred years, with the current trend.

But take comfort in the fact that you can assume that roughly 50% of americans still like Israel by voting Trump.

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http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...e-Mount-480004

I'll just start dropping these links here as I come across them, hopefully we can generate meaningful discussion.
Also, and please keep those link coming! Even if no one is responding, you can be sure that at least some are clicking and reading.
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:21 AM   #153
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-r...r-disarmament/

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A senior Hamas leader on Friday rejected Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman’s offer of massive assistance to the Gaza Strip in return for the terrorists giving up their rockets and attack tunnels.

Responding to Liberman’s statement on Thursday that Israel wants to help build Gaza economically as soon as Hamas gives up terror, Mahmoud al-Zahar said that if Gaza wanted to be like Singapore it would have done so already, Hebrew media reported Friday.

Zahar, a spokesperson for the Hamas terrorist group, also said that Liberman’s call for Hamas to return the bodies of the fallen IDF soldiers and the three Israeli civilians it is holding in exchange for economic prosperity was misplaced.

Referring to Palestinian terrorists held in Israel jails, Zahar said that Hamas will only release the captives when Israel releases “all the heroic Palestinian fighters from all factions.”

Launching the new Arabic, Hebrew and English website of the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) — the Defense Ministry body that acts as liaison between Israel and the Palestinian territories — Liberman offered economic growth and prosperity for the residents of Gaza if they would only end the violence against Israel.

“The moment Hamas gives up on tunnels and rockets, we will be the first ones to invest and build [Gaza’s residents] a seaport, an airport, and industrial zones by the Kerem Shalom and Erez crossings,” Liberman said. “We are able to immediately create about 40,000 jobs for the residents of Gaza.”

Liberman also said that the organization would have to agree to give up on cross-border terror tunnels, give up on rockets, “and of course, and this is the first and most important step, [facilitate] the return of the bodies of our soldiers and the citizens who are held captive by Hamas.”



Hamas is believed to be holding hostage three Israeli men who crossed into Gaza of their own accord — Avraham Mengistu and Hisham al-Sayed, as well as Juma Ibrahim Abu Ghanima, whose presence in Gaza is unconfirmed. It also holds the bodies of IDF soldiers Oron Shaul and Hadar Goldin, who the army determined were killed in action in the 2014 Gaza war.

Israel withdrew all its troops and civilians from the Gaza Strip, home to almost 2 million Palestinians, in 2005. Since 2007 the enclave has been ruled by the Hamas terrorist organization after elections and a coup.

The group avowedly seeks the destruction of Israel and has fought three major rounds of conflict against it since 2007, fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into it, tunneled under the border to carry out terror attacks and orchestrated suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis

Israel destroyed many of the tunnels during its 2014 war with Hamas, but the Strip’s Islamist rulers have since been rebuilding the network.

While Hamas leaders have at times expressed to English-language news outlets they would accept a state along the pre-1967 lines, the group’s official spokespeople and media continue on a near-daily basis to promise to take back the entire land of historic Palestine, including the entire state of Israel.

In January the group said it was rewriting its charter in a way that will remove its anti-Semitic language, but also made plain the group’s ongoing rejection of the Jews’ right to statehood in Israel.

Too bad. I think this was a reasonable thing that would've helped both sides move forward, but guess not.
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:31 AM   #154
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-r...r-disarmament/

Too bad. I think this was a reasonable thing that would've helped both sides move forward, but guess not.
It wouldnt. Hamas without guns wouldn't exist and Israel knows this. And at the same time Israel was pushing for the US to stop supporting the two state solution, which no one in Palestine is a big fan of.

This was just a meaningless attempt by the Israeli government to get some good press after being broadly criticised by governments across the world, from the Resolution, to the decision to keep building, to the decision of allowing the Israeli government to take Palestinian private land to the push against the two state solution.

Just a cynical attempt by an aggressively anti Palestinian government to get some free points for pointing out that yes, the terrorist group is armed. If he meant anything he would have made the reconstruction offer to the areas controlled by the PLO who are almost as fucked.

At best this would be just like the withholding of taxes, which Bibi seems to be doing almost once every year.
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:51 AM   #155
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From a realpolotik standpoint, giving up all possibility of resistance is actual sovereign suicide against another nation that is willing to dominate you whenever it fears.

Israel's olive branch is a lie. Consider if China woild give up all rights to the South China Sea if the USA agreed to dismantle its nuclear arsenal and agree to complete nuclear non-proliferation. Yes. Straight away, because it gains so much more.

I dunno maybe I'm speaking out of my ass, but trading your defence for a promise that could never even appear because of woops there goes the economy seems farcical.
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:57 AM   #156
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How is hurling rockets and building terror tunnels into Israel "defence"? Nobody asked them to give up all their guns, just the stuff they were using to perform terror attacks on Israel. And to boot they would receive incredible support and good-will from the Israeli government.

If you are willing to call any attempt from a high ranking official like Lieberman, who HAS the capacity to enact such promises as "a lie" and a "meaningless attempt to get some good press", then there really is no point to this whole thing.

This offer is a REAL offer that would benefit both sides (Israel and the Palestinian people) - the only people who see this as not beneficial are terrorists (Hamas).

EDIT: Also trying to understand this irrelevant China comparison, because you cannot compare China/US relations to Israel/Palestinian relations at all. Hamas keeps negotiating as if it's in a position of power, when it clearly isn't. This is a completely reasonable deal and their unwillingness to take it is telling.

Also, "If we wanted to be like Singapore we would be like Singapore" is an incredible statement if you take it at face value - that means Hamas is happy with its current state of Gaza? Insane.

This type of deal can easily be brokered by a third party if Hamas is so afraid Israel "wouldn't hold up its end", as has been done multiple times in the past.
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Old 02-18-2017, 11:13 AM   #157
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How is hurling rockets and building terror tunnels into Israel "defence"? Nobody asked them to give up all their guns, just the stuff they were using to perform terror attacks on Israel. And to boot they would receive incredible support and good-will from the Israeli government.

If you are willing to call any attempt from a high ranking official like Lieberman, who HAS the capacity to enact such promises as "a lie" and a "meaningless attempt to get some good press", then there really is no point to this whole thing.

This offer is a REAL offer that would benefit both sides (Israel and the Palestinian people) - the only people who see this as not beneficial are terrorists (Hamas).

EDIT: Also trying to understand this irrelevant China comparison, because you cannot compare China/US relations to Israel/Palestinian relations at all. Hamas keeps negotiating as if it's in a position of power, when it clearly isn't. This is a completely reasonable deal and their unwillingness to take it is telling.

Also, "If we wanted to be like Singapore we would be like Singapore" is an incredible statement if you take it at face value - that means Hamas is happy with its current state of Gaza? Insane.

This type of deal can easily be brokered by a third party if Hamas is so afraid Israel "wouldn't hold up its end", as has been done multiple times in the past.
Except Gaza elected Hamas as its representative. Except that the Palestinian people don't trust Israel and much less the current government. Except that Israel offers this while trying to push the end of the two state solution. Except that the Israeli government just approved a slew of measures that are incredibly prejudicial to particular Palestinian interests. Except that Israel abuses any kind of power it has over the Palestinian, as the afore mentioned budget witholding.

Quote:
If you are willing to call any attempt from a high ranking official like Lieberman, who HAS the capacity to enact such promises as "a lie" and a "meaningless attempt to get some good press", then there really is no point to this whole thing.
Context. Putin 'attempts' to reach deal with Ukraine once in a while. Why should the Ukrainian trust him?
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Old 02-18-2017, 11:17 AM   #158
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None of anything you said makes sense. Yes Gaza elected a terrorist organization as it's government (LOL) so Israel tries to deal with it as best as it can.

I agree that the settlements are dumb and I wish they didnt exist, but this is a step in the right direction trying to atleast get Gaza some autonomy. It's about baby steps and building trust through different measures and initiatives, which Hamas is clearly unable to do.

If you just want to see everything as anti and impossible, again, there really is no point to this whole thing. Maybe offer an alternative then?

Also nice whataboutism. Irrelevant.
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Old 02-18-2017, 11:25 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Swirly Mango View Post
From a realpolotik standpoint, giving up all possibility of resistance is actual sovereign suicide against another nation that is willing to dominate you whenever it fears.

Israel's olive branch is a lie. Consider if China woild give up all rights to the South China Sea if the USA agreed to dismantle its nuclear arsenal and agree to complete nuclear non-proliferation. Yes. Straight away, because it gains so much more.

I dunno maybe I'm speaking out of my ass, but trading your defence for a promise that could never even appear because of woops there goes the economy seems farcical.
Pretty sure that defense isn't really going to accomplish much in the scenario where there's an actual invasion. Wheras the US is stronger than China. Your example doesn't really work.
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Old 02-18-2017, 11:36 AM   #160
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Pretty sure that defense isn't really going to accomplish much in the scenario where there's an actual invasion. Wheras the US is stronger than China. Your example doesn't really work.
And it's not even defence. Both him and Invictus somehow managed to say it was complete disarmament ("Hamas without guns" "no option of defence") which to me shows they didn't bother reading the article (classic), since Liberman is specifically talking about rocket attacks (which are inherently not defensive) and terror tunnels (which are also not defensive at all).
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