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Old 06-21-2013, 01:56 PM   #21
Garden
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The exemption for religious study in Yeshivot is actually a 6 month postponement of service, which is usually renewed for as long as the student is in the Yeshiva, and applies only to men studying in Haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) Yeshivas. But it is effectively an exemption, since they're generally renewed.

Then there's exemption for religious reasons for women, which are actually pretty common.

Generally, the Orthodox Jewish population is quite against draft evasion or exemption because they're nationalistic, while the Ultra-Orthodox are the ones who receive the most exemptions.
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:29 PM   #22
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What is also interesting, to me at least, is the growing Muslim population in Israel. Still only around 35% of the total population (last I checked, that is), but if it continues to rise it could make things interesting/awkward.
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:35 PM   #23
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It's more like 20%.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:04 PM   #24
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Some background from Hebrew-language wikipedia:

So, there this tactic for a situation when Israeli intelligence have some information about a terrorist suspect and they go to arrest him, but he barricades himself in his house/apartment. If soldiers were to approach to negotiate with the wanted man then he would start shooting. So the soldiers would go to the neighboring home and force the neighbor (possibly a relative) to knock on the guy's door and relay messages from the soldiers outside (asking him to surrender). The idea obviously being that the guy inside would not start shooting and shooting can be avoided altogether.

According to Hebrew-language wikipedia, in hundreds of times this tactic was used, a single Palestinian was killed (in 2002). In 2005, the Israeli high court pronounced this practice illegal. Since then, it has been sporadically carried out illegally and a few times soldiers got suspended sentences for this. A safer method for dealing with barricated suspects has been developed, one which steadily increases pressure up to the point where the building (after being cleared of other people) is demolished using an armored D9 with the wanted person still inside, but without risking civilians or the soldiers sent to perform the arrest.

A number of times, human rights organizations have reported that soldiers forced children to open bags that were suspected to be booby-trapped, but I'd need proof of this.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:18 PM   #25
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Angry at a culture that knows what it's like to be persecuted to act this way in such an open manner.
Being persecuted/killed en masse is great for PR. It lets people get away with plenty of things.


As for the israelo palestinian conflict in general, they've been going at it since what, the beginning of the 20th century I think? This kind of thing probably happened plenty of times, on both sides. Not trying to sound blasé or anything, but frankly, we can't do much about it.
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Old 06-21-2013, 05:35 PM   #26
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I'm going to use this as the basis for a Israel/Palestine thread because Trooper had a good idea.
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Old 06-21-2013, 06:06 PM   #27
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Wait, guys, the CRC is saying something? The UN COMMISSION on the rights of CHILDREN!?
Well of course this has to be important and correct and worth paying attention to!
Except wait. The findings of the study came from Palestinian only sources... in UN archives. Dug up retroactively.
Except wait. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Bahrain, Malaysia, Egypt and Tunisia are current members of the CRC.
Except wait, this is the UN, whose Human Rights Commitee had a full half of its resolutions made against Israel in 2012... and zero agains Sudan. Which was having a genocide.
Except wait, UNICEF already released a damn report on this same shit several months ago, to which Israel responded with full collaboration on correcting the problems.

Huh. I wonder if this might not be a clear cut issue of Israel and Jews being child-murdering demon psychopaths?
Nah.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:30 PM   #28
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... I wasn't aware that writing was only a hundred years old.
As I understand it, this war is just the latest iteration of a cultural conflict that's been going on since forever. Maybe I didn't make that clear, my bad.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:07 PM   #29
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As I understand it, this war is just the latest iteration of a cultural conflict that's been going on since forever. Maybe I didn't make that clear, my bad.
Your understanding is both wrong and dangerous. Historically, the Hebrew populace and the Arab settlements in Palastine had a good trade relationship. Tension rose first under the Ottoman rule in the region (pre-WW1), and by 47' there was real turmoil.

That is a long history of dispute, no doubt, but suggesting it is 2,000 years old is patently false and leaves no options for change.

Not that many years ago Israeli and Gazati farmers traded produce over the seperation wall. The stasis in the peace process is troubling, and causing a real deteriation in the relationships between the two people. Everyday we don't work actively for peace (and both sides currently don't), we get farther away from it. This type of inflammatory articles don't help at all, in any case.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:36 PM   #30
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I guess it depends on what sources you consider, but I'm willing to accept for now that the conflict isn't as ancient as I thought. I was under the impression that the general area of Palestine had been opposing the general Jewish or Zionist or whateverthefuck demographic since fo'evah.

My bad if I'm wrong.
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:52 AM   #31
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A successful attempt at Zionism didn't occur until '47ish so no, not as old you might think. The reason you would think it has been around longer is because a lot of people (ignorant people) think that these Israeli's have been fighting the Palestinians since the time of Moses and that this all goes back to the original Jewish migration from Egypt. Which is so insanely false that I laugh at how ridiculous it is. But from a modern perspective it is kinda old, at least 2 generations have grown up within this conflict and been shaped by the regional forces.
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Old 06-22-2013, 02:18 AM   #32
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Fair enough. High School history has betrayed me yet again. I'm so glad I plan to major in history in college, I might actually learn something.
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Old 06-22-2013, 03:06 AM   #33
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I'm amused by people who think that the conflict between Muslims and Jews is age-old: the only people who have been hating jews for millennia are christians. Hell, go back a few centuries and the only places and people who weren't being dicks to the Jews were the Moors in Spain, (that's like... eight-ish centuries) and their ilk. Compared to how Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox sects dealt with them, the Muslims ere pretty decent about it all.
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Old 06-22-2013, 03:29 AM   #34
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Persecution tends to bring minorities together.
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Old 06-22-2013, 04:11 AM   #35
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The fact that you think the Moors (or any other Muslim group) at the time was persecuted, or a minority, for that matter, really shows that you shouldn't be participating in this discussion. They weren't tolerating the Jews because the Christians were picking on them too, they were tolerating the Jews because they weren't raging assholes, unlike the majority of Church officials from the period 100 C.E to roughly today.
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Old 06-22-2013, 05:53 AM   #36
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Woah, woah, I didn't say anything about Muslims. I was just talking about the peoples in those regions. Whether they later evolved into those different religions is not the point.

Even when I'm wrong, I don't want to be that wrong.
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Old 06-23-2013, 11:01 AM   #37
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The fact that you think the Moors (or any other Muslim group) at the time was persecuted, or a minority, for that matter, really shows that you shouldn't be participating in this discussion. They weren't tolerating the Jews because the Christians were picking on them too, they were tolerating the Jews because they weren't raging assholes, unlike the majority of Church officials from the period 100 C.E to roughly today.
I ignored your earlier 8ish century comment and was thinking of the centuries after the fall of Grenada.

Also, Muslim-Jewish relations varied from dynasty to dynasty with some tolerating them, others putting them in power over the natives, and still others forcibly converting them/committing them to martyrdom.

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Old 06-23-2013, 12:00 PM   #38
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Can we move the discussion away from the 8th century, and put it toward the 1930-present timeline?
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:14 PM   #39
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As I understand it, this war is just the latest iteration of a cultural conflict that's been going on since forever. Maybe I didn't make that clear, my bad.
Nah. We used to be bros, and then we started fighting, and then we became bros again and back and forth it went. There used to be hundreds of thousands of Jews across the Middle East before Israel happened and Arabs started eyeing their neighbors the wrong way which resulted in one of the later Aliyahs*. There's still a few small groups across the region though, along with old synagogues and stuff.

*Migrations/Exoduses to Israel
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:38 PM   #40
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Kudos for making this thread. And Kudos for anyone who wades into the discussion truly seeking to discuss and debate. I recommend permanently linking the BBC's timeline of the conflict - they have an accurate archive of when things happened, and that will be essential to anyone wading into the discussion. Again - consider the source - it is England. However, I would also stress, they do have a really well organized of agreed upon dates for events, and it covers amply the big issues - from 1948, the establishment of Israel, to the Oslo accords, to the smaller meetings in between.

Things are always changing in the Middle East - just as they are here in the US where I reside. I beg you to avail yourselves to Arab newspapers - Al Jazeera has some use, as does Al- Ahram in Cairo. While the Electronic Infatada has some good journalism, it also holds a host of bad qualitative analysis as well, so information taken from there should be vetted prior to acceptance. And likewise, it would be great if we could take the UN CRC as credible... but there is a better source for data - the World Health Organization. If you want data on malnutrition, anemia, wasting, stunting, if you want information on access to the basic medical data for the health and vitality of a given population, there is good data available there, if you have the interest to examine it.

It's easy for me to recount the number of times I've argued with Anti-American students and Arabs over this stuff, but I can't be arsed to because it would turn this into a TL;DR of Saudi proportions. Suffice it to say, I had to tell them over and over again - - America, Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are all complex societies - and their people not always truly represented by their governments' stupid or cruel policies. We have to recognize that and table it before discussions can be useful and informative.

As a scholar, I ask this because there is an urgent need for the world at large to be aware of the truth of how Israeli and Palestinian military forces treat one another, the need for Palestinians to accept the reality of Israel and engage with Israelis, - especially the Israeli opposition - and the duty all scholars share to speak openly about the failings of Arab leadership. Never forget - it is fellow Arab regimes, especially the Palestinian Liberation Organization who need to be taken to task for their corruption, their malevolence, and cupidity. It is a serious risk of intellectuals to be rather... elastic and fawning with regards to one's own side of an argument. It has plagued intellectuals since time immemorial. I find myself asking all the time - what is to be done? what can be done? If Palestinian leadership is corrupt and incompetent, (and there a growing and dismaying body of evidence for this); if Israeli governments won't even keep their own stated commitments, much less to the spirit of what they say they will commit to, if there is so much fear and loathing on both sides - what then? How can we implement a two-state solution, now that the international community, Palestinians and Israelis at least accept the idea in theory?

The status quo is awful and getting worse - parasitic, even. Noam Chomsky said it well "Two peoples, each sustained by their exclusive victim narrative, competing indefinitely across the dead bodies of their children for the same tiny piece of land." And their stories are depressing and so alike it's...it's almost boring: a tale of expulsion, diaspora, resurrection - oh - and let us not forget - "Return". The "right of return" - so valuable in all of the Palestinian demands - not because anyone really believes that Israel will or even could take back the millions of refugees and their descendants - but from that need for acknowledgement - that the initial expulsion took place - that some unforgivable wrong was committed. And the stories are depressingly familiar to anyone who has read the byline. I can't help but wonder what - if anything - can be repaired. After 46 years of occupation, Israel and Palestine both have gained nothing in security, lost much in international respectability, and have forfeited the moral high ground.
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