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Old 06-28-2013, 03:10 PM   #41
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Nah. We used to be bros, and then we started fighting, and then we became bros again and back and forth it went.
This sounds like the description of a pair of brothers instead of a pair of cultures...
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:27 PM   #42
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We used to be bros, and then we started fighting, and then we became bros again and back and forth it went.
That 'we' mentality is an obstacle in and of itself. Insurmountable, yes, but it should be acknowledged. Whatever's happened in the past, especially outside of living memory, to people who share your culture or creed or whatever... it didn't actually happen to you. It's just some abstract once-common-cause you're using to pad the bra of your identity, applied with liberal amounts of subconscious spin.

The history of the region is fascinating, but we can't reasonably expect any progress to be made while each group continually cites it. Really, it has no actual relevance to the problems at hand. Being x has a different meaning to everyone who identifies as such. You can't seriously expect yourself to make any progress while you factor it into your decisions?
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:24 PM   #43
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What ypu aks is not that they forget their past, but to forget their own indemtity. That, specially for yhe Jew people, is impossible. Being Jew is not about religion, is much more, specially to those foreign ones that are/were major financial backers of the state of Israel? Sionism wasn't born for religious reasons only, the cultural one were as big. No,, when you aks the Jew people to forget their past is like asking an American to forget their own Constitution and History, impossible and deeply offensive to them.

I won't enter in details about being Jew because I'm not one and what I know about it is second or third handed. Really, a big part of the Jew population is atheist, and do you think is coincidential that from the 3 Abraahamic religions, only Judaism hadn't massive conversions ?

The state of Israel is a dick, and so are the Palestinian in power. The israeli gorvenment is made of paranoid, trigger happy and/or arrongant dicks, and the Palestinian govern most of the times seems to care more to make themselves the Martirs of Islam then helping their population.

And to Riley Poole, that's gunny bevause acording to both Islam and Jew traditions, the Jew and Arabs descend from two brothers, son of Abraham. Wach brother founded each people.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:51 PM   #44
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The peace process does not exist. There will be small agreements and short-term deals but not resolute solution. The Israeli government doesn't see PLO as capable of delivering and adapting the terms. Until the Gaza strip and the West Bank are not under non militant and not super-corrupt control the status quo shall go on.

Referring to the first post - where in hell did you ever see a child sitting 20 years in jail for throwing rocks? That is a baseless accusation, especially coming from part of UN that preferred condemning Israel and not Syria, Sudan or other countries which murder countless innocents.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:30 PM   #45
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Until the Gaza strip and the West Bank are not under non militant and not super-corrupt control the status quo shall go on.
And for as long as Palestinians feel oppressed, they will resort to militarism. As the stronger of the two, it's really up to Israel to start taking steps. Maintaining that tribe mentality is evidently more important, though, lest the recognition of a Palestinian state somehow [insert bullshit reason here].

Besides, say Palestine elected a completely different government, non-militant, clean as a whistle, totally committed to a final, peaceful resolution to this nonsense, etc. You seriously believe that would be enough? Or would another ultimatum be set, some other condition that must be met, thereby maintaining the status quo for a little longer?

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especially coming from part of UN that preferred condemning Israel and not Syria, Sudan or other countries which murder countless innocents.
Someone was paying attention in 'Argue like an Israeli 101', I see. Finger pointing is all well and good but, as said above, using terrible shit as justification - or even perspective - for your own terrible shit is, well, terrible.

Not to mention that the countries you mentioned and endless others are just as condemned as Israel. The difference here, persecution-complex news filter aside, is that Israel is supposedly a more developed country than these others. 'They were all doing it!' is no more valid on the world stage as it is a playground, especially from a position of power.
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Old 06-30-2013, 05:49 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Evil Shnitzel View Post

Referring to the first post - where in hell did you ever see a child sitting 20 years in jail for throwing rocks? That is a baseless accusation, especially coming from part of UN that preferred condemning Israel and not Syria, Sudan or other countries which murder countless innocents.

Syria, Sudan and those other countries don't care much anyway. At least with Israel, there's a chance that what allegedly happened is not true/extremely isolated cases, and if it does happen, Israel will probably comply.

That's why the CRC doesn't even bother with those other countries and specifically targets Israel. It's a developped country. And democratical.

Unlike Sudan.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:11 AM   #47
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And for as long as Palestinians feel oppressed, they will resort to militarism. As the stronger of the two, it's really up to Israel to start taking steps. Maintaining that tribe mentality is evidently more important, though, lest the recognition of a Palestinian state somehow [insert bullshit reason here].

Besides, say Palestine elected a completely different government, non-militant, clean as a whistle, totally committed to a final, peaceful resolution to this nonsense, etc. You seriously believe that would be enough? Or would another ultimatum be set, some other condition that must be met, thereby maintaining the status quo for a little longer?
I was just relating to current government point of view. In my opinion the best solution is to support PLO until they have defeated Hammas and other militant organizations and stabilize their rule. Once the economic situation is stable than the peace talks could really have effect (given that the government in Israel would be less right-winged). The Israelis as well as the Palestinians should change from inside to mean buisness.

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Someone was paying attention in 'Argue like an Israeli 101', I see. Finger pointing is all well and good but, as said above, using terrible shit as justification - or even perspective - for your own terrible shit is, well, terrible.

Not to mention that the countries you mentioned and endless others are just as condemned as Israel. The difference here, persecution-complex news filter aside, is that Israel is supposedly a more developed country than these others. 'They were all doing it!' is no more valid on the world stage as it is a playground, especially from a position of power.
My point was that the organization is basically a joke, more often than not they are basing their resolutions on false evidence, even though that most of the times Israel do take it seriously, making their own independent investigation and works to resolve problems. Not saying that these investigations are peach perfect - some of the times, the persons responsible for crimes escapre serious punishments, but still.
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:29 PM   #48
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Sorry if this is a bit offtopic, but has anyone seen The Gatekeepers? For me personally, it provided an interesting insight into the conflict. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:33 PM   #49
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Fair enough. High School history has betrayed me yet again. I'm so glad I plan to major in history in college, I might actually learn something.
You were taught in high school that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is some ancient grudge match?

The fuck did you go to high school, and would it be justifiable homicide if I beat your teachers to death with whatever textbook you were using?
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:51 PM   #50
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^^^^^This. Yeah. Let me at them, too. I have... I have words for them.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:00 AM   #51
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At least his education covered it... Here we studied Texas history, United States history, and a dilapidated form of World history with such a shitty teacher that we barely finished with the Roman Republic before standardized tests came when we should have gotten to WWI.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:14 AM   #52
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Go here - they have an excellent crash course on World History!
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:57 AM   #53
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Basically, I was told that there has been SOME SORT of conflict in that region since forever, and that it eventually evolved into the current israel-palestine mess that we have today. I was also told that the Romans had a morally bankrupt society. Yep. Nope. Basically I've spent a long time having to unlearn a lot of history.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:25 PM   #54
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HA! "There has been war here for a long time! Oh, by the way, this is the part of the world with the longest recorded histories of mankind!"

Yea, true enough. There have been wars in the Middle East since time immemorial. Unfortunately, they had pretty much nothing to do with a ethno-religious hate-fest generated as a product of Western Imperialist efforts to tame the defunct Ottoman Empire after the conclusion of World War One, the Jewish need for a homeland after the Holocaust safe from anti-Semitic persecutions, what amounts to predatory real estate practices and unjustified land confiscations, and Jihadic suicide-terrorism.

Also LOL to Rome having a morally bankrupt society, given that their society is what gave birth to our own morally bankrupt society. They just had the balls to kill people with lions.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:07 PM   #55
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They are currently doing one on US History.

The other brother did a video on Egypt here.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:16 PM   #56
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Also LOL to Rome having a morally bankrupt society, given that their society is what gave birth to our own morally bankrupt society. They just had the balls to kill people with lions.
You know, oddly enough, not even that. Accounts of Christians being sacrificed to lions were made up by early Christian writers to make new converts outraged by the Romans, who, to be fair, did persecute Christianity.

Also, orgies. No. Apparently there were some prominent figures who were batshit insane (Nero comes to mind) who would have these massive bacchanalian parties, but the average citizen valued dignity and virtue.

Anyway, back on topic. I'm hopeful that at least one of my classes will enlighten me as to that whole mess at some point in the coming year. Fingers crossed, eh?
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:17 PM   #57
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I wasn't actually referring to Christian persecutions, but to the Gladiatorial Games in general, where slaves were routinely pitted against dangerous wild animals (lions and tigers were a favorite, but bears were popular, too).

Regarding the orgies, see Emperor Tiberius, who had that sex island place off the coast of Naples. That bit is actually hilariously true. Although to be fair, as you say, the vast majority of the population was not into that.

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Old 07-11-2013, 01:23 AM   #58
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Regarding the orgies, see Emperor Tiberius, who had that sex island place off the coast of Naples. That bit is actually hilariously true. Although to be fair, as you say, the vast majority of the population was not into that.
Actually, nobody's really sure if that's true or if it's a piece of propaganda set up after his, Caligula and Nero's deaths to discredit the former rulers.
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:10 AM   #59
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As if Caligula was one to talk.
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:53 AM   #60
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Not saying Caligula was a good ruler, just that it's been several thousand years since they were alive and that historians hadn't quite gotten down the idea of objective observation. Read Tacitus' Annal's some time. They're the best records we've got of the time, but they're anything but unbiased.

Other sources are even less reliable because Tacitus at least made the attempt at neutrality, whereas most didn't even bother.

The one thing you've got to remember at all times when studying the Classical world is that our sources are few and far between, and that every author has a bias.
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