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Old 12-16-2013, 08:36 AM   #21
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Oh noes there are plot holes in Harry Potter! How shall I live with this knowledge?
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:01 AM   #22
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There is something "not so smart" in this thread, but it isn't the HP villains.

OP: stop making assumptions. E.g. Goblet of Fire. Why do you assume that Voldemort's ritual can be performed at any time he likes, and not a specific time of year? Why do you assume that you can side-along apparate someone who doesn't want to be apparated? Why do you assume there aren't magical protections in place to prevent kidnapping in Hogsmeade? Why do you assume, knowing that the Trace can give information about a child's location and the magic cast around them, that the Ministry can't find a kidnapped child, thus bringing a squad of Aurors down upon baby!Voldemort?

You also need to stop forgetting established canon facts, like the fact that Voldemort wanted his return to come unannounced. The Boy Who Lived being kidnapped in broad daylight would kinda alert people to something going on. Another thing you've apparently forgotten: the protection Lily gave Harry extends to magic, not just physical touch. It's astounding that you forgot this, as a reflected curse is the basis of the entire saga.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:44 AM   #23
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There is something "not so smart" in this thread, but it isn't the HP villains.

OP: stop making assumptions. E.g. Goblet of Fire. Why do you assume that Voldemort's ritual can be performed at any time he likes, and not a specific time of year? Why do you assume that you can side-along apparate someone who doesn't want to be apparated? Why do you assume there aren't magical protections in place to prevent kidnapping in Hogsmeade? Why do you assume, knowing that the Trace can give information about a child's location and the magic cast around them, that the Ministry can't find a kidnapped child, thus bringing a squad of Aurors down upon baby!Voldemort?

You also need to stop forgetting established canon facts, like the fact that Voldemort wanted his return to come unannounced. The Boy Who Lived being kidnapped in broad daylight would kinda alert people to something going on. Another thing you've apparently forgotten: the protection Lily gave Harry extends to magic, not just physical touch. It's astounding that you forgot this, as a reflected curse is the basis of the entire saga.
I didn't assume the ritual can be performed at any time he likes, I asked for evidence, neither me nor the other guy who was replying knew the details. In fact, I first wrote that it needs to be done at a specific time, read that.

Harry will be stunned, please give evidence from the books that it won't be possible to take Harry to another place when he is stunned.

Why are you assuming there are protections in Hogsmeade, what proof do you have?

What about secret keepers? Make Crouch the secret keeper and hide Harry at that place, what now? Crouch can pretend being Moody, Voldemort can hide at another place. Moody can keep checking on Harry. What now, even if they know Harry is at certain place, they won't be able to find him. Voila!

Yeah, they will know something is going, how does that matter, is Voldemort the only who kidnaps people in the wizarding world?

I forgot the reflected curse, please read my second post, I mentioned the Quirell's curse might not work on Harry. Please be specific what point you are refuting. I am trying my best to refute on point by point basis, try that. Don't just throw things in the air.

I was expecting better from you.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:55 AM   #24
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When faced with an unexplained action in the books, you can:

a) assume that there is a perfectly good reason that was simply unexplained
b) victoriously declare it a plot hole

There are plenty of possible explanations for the various actions you call inexplicable. We don't know which explanation is the true one, or if maybe there is another rationale behind them that we haven't thought of. What is important is that if we, a group of fans, can think of 10 possible explanations for the events in 5 minutes of thinking, then the original creator who spent years creating the plot could certainly do so.

So we don't know the particular explanation. There is no "evidence" that, for example, there are anti-kidnapping spells on Hogsmeade. But it seems to be possible within the Potterverse magic system, and we don't see anyone ever being kidnapped from Hogsmeade. And we can easily think of a variety of other reasons why Harry wasn't more directly kidnapped. So it seems unlikely that it's a plot hole, as it's perfectly explainable. It's just something left unexplained.

What I'm saying, basically, is that we can infer that there is an explanation possible even if we don't know what that explanation is in particular. Most of your "points" are covered by this. All of them are trivially easy to reason away, so one wonders why you made this rather self-congratulatory thread about how clever you think yourself to be.

Now, certainly there are some plot holes where it's very difficult to find a good explanation. But your points are nowhere near that level.

(Meta-note: if you're going to address things "point by point" -- which tends to lead to unbearably long posts -- please use the forum's quote function. That's what it's there for.)

Edit: It seems to me that the only person in the Potterverse who actually knows how to cast the Fidelius charm is Dumbledore.

Edit for Riley: lol, I passed 9000 a fair while back. If I remember correctly, I wrote the one shot Secrets as a 9000 post landmark.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:59 AM   #25
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Not to derail, but I just realized Taure has OVER 9000 posts....didn't realize anyone had managed that.

Edit for Taure: well then, I'm just gonna have to go read that now.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:45 AM   #26
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So we don't know the particular explanation. There is no "evidence" that, for example, there are anti-kidnapping spells on Hogsmeade. But it seems to be possible within the Potterverse magic system, and we don't see anyone ever being kidnapped from Hogsmeade. And we can easily think of a variety of other reasons why Harry wasn't more directly kidnapped. So it seems unlikely that it's a plot hole, as it's perfectly explainable. It's just something left unexplained.
You make several fallacies here, just because no has been found dead at a place, does that mean there are no-killing spells there? You guys blame me for pulling stuff out of my ass, what's this? We don't even know if there is anything like an anti-kidnapping spell!

If these kinds of assumptions are allowed, I can come up with a thousand more contentious issues. Please stick to canon and verifiable evidence.

Now, apparating out of Hogsmeade, remember that in HBP Dumbledore apparates from Hogsmeade and he doesn't need to remove any spell.

Also, Fenrir forces Harry to apparate with him to Malfoy Manor! Oops, you don't remember your canon. Inspite of all of Harry's efforts, he couldn't avoid it, now remember, this dude broke the imperius curse, what chance does he have when he is stunned? Someone implied you are one of the best here, still waiting. The plan of action I suggest is much simpler and easier to pull off.

Quote:
a) assume that there is a perfectly good reason that was simply unexplained
b) victoriously declare it a plot hole
You seem limited in your imagination, you missed the most important point, the one I am following, discussing the most probable on the basis of evidence that we have.

Quote:
It seems to me that the only person in the Potterverse who actually knows how to cast the Fidelius charm is Dumbledore.
Really? Don't you remember Weasleys using it on their houses after Dumbledore died? Arthur and Bill I think, ooops, another slip up.

Quote:
All of them are trivially easy to reason away.
Then why don't you do it? Let's have a point to point discussion using the books as evidence, I am doing it, join in, and stop making ad hominem attacks.

EDIT- Do you remember that for going to Hogsmeade a form needs to be signed. Why is that required if there are protections there too?

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Old 12-16-2013, 11:50 AM   #27
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Really? Don't you remember Weasleys using it on their houses after Dumbledore died? Arthur and Bill I think, ooops, another slip up.
This intrigues me, can you point out where it is said they did it, or that it was done?

If it's true and they did put one up, then how was the wedding planned for and the attack executed?
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:07 PM   #28
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This intrigues me, can you point out where it is said they did it, or that it was done?

If it's true and they did put one up, then how was the wedding planned for and the attack executed?
It is true! Come on, when Harry and co. go to Shell Cottage it is mentioned. But I don't think it was there for the wedding. Because if it was there before Harry and co. went there, how did they go there? Now either it was cast after they arrived, or elf-magic can bypass fidelius charm, which again is problematic as Malfoy could have easily asked Dobby to find James and Lily Potter in the first war against Voldemort. Or maybe Dobby apparated next to the Shell Cottage, and they were found, will need to read again to verify.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:14 PM   #29
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It is true! Come on, when Harry and co. go to Shell Cottage it is mentioned. But I don't think it was there for the wedding. Because if it was there before Harry and co. went there, how did they go there? Now either it was cast after they arrived, or elf-magic can bypass fidelius charm, which again is problematic as Malfoy could have easily asked Dobby to find James and Lily Potter in the first war against Voldemort. Or maybe Dobby apparated next to the Shell Cottage, and they were found, will need to read again to verify.
Bro, if it's true, you should be able to find it in the book. Because honestly, it's hard taking you seriously with aaaaaaall that circular reasoning.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:34 PM   #30
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Bro, if it's true, you should be able to find it in the book. Because honestly, it's hard taking you seriously with aaaaaaall that circular reasoning.
How are they protected?’ asked Harry. ‘Fidelius Charm. Dad’s Secret Keeper. And we’ve done it on this cottage too; I’m Secret Keeper here.'


The charm is used by Weasleys, that's 100% true, read above. Now whether the charm was on the house when wedding was taking place, I don't know.

My reasoning is based on the fact the Harry and Dobby shouldn't have found the cottage if it's under the charm, but they did, so I am trying to think of the alternatives. I don't have my books because I moved to another city, otherwise I would have opened them and clarified everything.

---------- Post automerged at 11:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------

I don't get why HP fans get so hostile. I am merely having speculative discussions, I have been called names by several different people here. And of course logical fallacies, read the two posts by Taure.

First post:
Quote:
OP: stop making assumptions.
Then he makes all sorts of assumptions in his second post. He accuses me of not remembering the canon without reading my posts and then himself goofs up at least twice which I point out with evidence.

I have found this whole forum to be very hostile till now, read the post by Lord Ravenclaw about declining IQs, if you guys go by IQ, I have an IQ of 137 on WAIS-IV, that's 99 percentile.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:36 PM   #31
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Just because order members knew the fidelius charm doesn't necessarily mean that Knockturn Alley has dark art shops full books on it available with 50% discount to Lords of Ancient and Noble Houses. Anyway, Harry Potter books aren't guidebooks for Dark Lord wannabes. They're children's books meant for entertainment not as a tactical aid for nefarious plots. There are better ways to spend your time rather than whatever it is that you are doing here.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:54 PM   #32
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Just because order members knew the fidelius charm doesn't necessarily mean that Knockturn Alley has dark art shops full books on it available with 50% discount to Lords of Ancient and Noble Houses. Anyway, Harry Potter books aren't guidebooks for Dark Lord wannabes. They're children's books meant for entertainment not as a tactical aid for nefarious plots. There are better ways to spend your time rather than whatever it is that you are doing here.
Oh, the most used argument on internet, HP series is for children. Sigh, you know, challenging your notions is a very good way to spend your time, having polite discussions, makes you think more, that's what I came to do here, unfortunately, I now think I am wasting my time here.

---------- Post automerged at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------

Quote:
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What is important is that if we, a group of fans, can think of 10 possible explanations for the events in 5 minutes of thinking, then the original creator who spent years creating the plot could certainly do so.
You really believe that? Thankfully the scientific community doesn't believe that, this scientist came up with this theory after 10 years of hard work, if we can find so many contentious issues in 5 minutes, the original scientist can definitely find them too. If he hasn't mentioned them, there is definitely an unexplained reason behind it. Let's accept this theory and give the guy a Nobel. Nah, doesn't happen.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:11 PM   #33
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Guys. Seriously. This is the biggest troll. Just stop talking to it and it'll disappear. This conversation is clearly pointless and needs to end.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:11 PM   #34
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OP, chill. I'm not arguing for or against you(in fact I retract my troll comment), butt you need a thicker skin if you want a discussion here. I find that a DLP discussion without insults is like a salad without salt.


Edit: I find it pretty funny actually. If you had better formatting and a higher post count, no one would be calling you a troll. A semi successful story in the WBA would have people rushing to your defense for no reason, too.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:19 PM   #35
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[I]I have found this whole forum to be very hostile till now, read the post by Lord Ravenclaw about declining IQs, if you guys go by IQ, I have an IQ of 137 on WAIS-IV, that's 99 percentile.
I usually try to avoid threads like that, and never, ever post in them, but you, sir, get props for making me laugh aloud.

Why the hell would we care what IQ you claim to have? Cleverness and petty ego stroking about things that are at best questionable aren't mutually exclusive (let's be honest, they're probably closer to mutually inclusive ), so I wouldn't call you a liar, but that's completely tangential.

The point at hand is this: yes, there are some things that were unexplained. They were children's books. They were written to be highly accessible. There isn't a level of worldbuilding that you might see in, say, one of Taure's fics. Surprise, his are written for a different audience (namely, himself/us)! As such, there are places where we don't have explanations, where people can point and yell "plot hole!" Congrats, mate, but that's not exactly novel. Many people have expressed in just as many ways what they think was handled poorly by Rowling, but if they stick around in the community clearly they aren't too bothered by the series as a whole. If you are, then move on. We're going to use our imagination, and logically extend the world within what we know of it. You can join in, leave, or pout in the corner. I can't be fucked to care.

Tl;Dr 4/10 on your trolling efforts, but you have provided a break in the tedium of an exceptionally dry dynamics class, so thanks for playing!
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:19 PM   #36
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Guys. Seriously. This is the biggest troll. Just stop talking to it and it'll disappear. This conversation is clearly pointless and needs to end.
I honestly don't think the guy's a troll. He's just unintentionally giving off that vibe.

OP: you bring up a few good points, and you seem sincere in trying to discuss the topic but it seems like you want to argue rather than find answers. When canon doesn't spell out the specifics, we're left to make guesses instead of just assuming Rowling made mistakes, and that's really the only thing we can offer.

Having said that:

Quote:
I have an IQ of 137 on WAIS-IV, that's 99 percentile.
So tacky.

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Old 12-16-2013, 02:34 PM   #37
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Y'know, I wasn't trying to be an ass with my question. It was a genuine question desiring a real answer. You didn't have to get sarcastic with the response. Quite clearly my memory is not as great as yours and my IQ isn't either.

But that's beside the point, what I want to really know is why you started this thread when we have this brilliant thread where you could have asked this to your heart's content, whiled away hours arguing, and not made a jerk of yourself by A) starting a new thread specifically to engage in hostile debate AND B)continued to engage in a hostile form of debating with more respected members who were simply responding to your base questions.

For a person who claims 99th percetntile, maybe you should have considered lurking a bit and figuring out how DLP works before making an ass out of youself and others. I'm sorry if we're not living up to your vaunted expectations, but we're not here to do that. We're here to have fun and engage in discussion on a child's book.

If that offends you, if the langauge we use offends you, and if the manner in which we choose to engage you offends you. Then you're in the wrong place to bitch about it. We have a thread in which you should reread point #5 and then consider where this thread is going.

Edit: and Taure comes in with a huge middle finger to the OP that completely overshadows anything I could have possibly contributed to this thread....dammit.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:39 PM   #38
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Okay, from your talk about evidence you have clearly missed the point of my previous post. So, just because you're that special type of annoying that thinks its far smarter than it actually is, I'm going to make an exception and go full retro TL,DR. So gather round kids, and listen carefully to Professor Taure and Logic 101.

First, let's semi-formalise your argument as it's a bit messy (read: rambling) in the OP.

Proposition A: A person is stupid if they take an action which is not the best possible action for them to take at any given time, where "best possible action" relates to satisfaction of that person's interests.

Proposition B: X character took Y action at Z time which was apparently not the best possible action at that time (see examples in OP).

Conclusion: X character is stupid.

Now, this only holds if Y action is indeed not the best possible action. If there is an explanation as to how that action is, in fact, the best possible action, then the argument collapses.

Note that there not being an explanation in the books is not sufficient. That does not eliminate the possibility that there is an explanation (in JKR's head, or notes) or that there could be an explanation contrived if JKR were pressed to create one.

So us not having an explanation as to why that action was the best does not show that this action was not the best action. There are plenty of good reasons to not include a justification for every action every character takes: most obviously, it would completely destroy the narrative and create enormous bloat.

So, in order to show that a character took something less than the best possible action we have to show that, not only is that action unexplained, it is also unexplainable. This is a modal proposition: that is, you have to show there is no possibility of explanation. If even one explanation exists, no matter how unlikely it may be, then the argument does not follow.

Of course it remains possible that character X is stupid, as the explanation for their actions is also only possible. But the statement you're making is Y action means X character must be stupid. For that to hold logically, there can be no possible world in which Y action makes sense.

Numerous explanations for actions you consider inexplicable have been offered to you (e.g. anti-kidnapping charms, specific ritual date, the Trace preventing kidnappers from escaping Ministry pursuit). You have denied that people have done so but simply screaming that responses don't exist does not make it so (telling people their arguments only consist of ad hominem attacks while ignoring all the substance of their posts is a classic rhetorical strategy, and won't catch DLPers out).

Your other response has been to talk about the balance of the evidence, and to ask for evidence that the explanations above are more than just possible, but rather likely. This completely misunderstands the logic underlying the argument we are having (explained above), and is misplaced. From the above we can see that possibility of explanation is sufficient to make your argument logically unsound.

It seems like what has happened here is that you've read a little bit of logic but not enough. You've probably come across Russell's teapot (a logical maxim which states that you should always assume the negative position until compelled to accept the positive) but it seems that you haven't fully understood it.

Not only is it completely unclear what the negative position is when discussing a fictional narrative, the teapot principle is clearly inappropriate to modal discussions. It is most commonly used to show how belief in God without positive evidence is logically unsound. But if the proposition was "God is possible" rather than "God exists" then the teapot would be off the point. So too here, the statement is "an explanation is possible", not "X is the explanation" and therefore the teapot does not apply.

Possibility does not require compelling evidence, it merely requires the lack of impossibility. And that's all we need in this situation.

You resort to a few ad hominems of your own in sarcastic comments about science. At what point does it occur to someone that a Harry Potter discussion is at all analogous to science? It baffles the mind. What we're doing here is so far removed from science that I don't even know how to explain it to someone if it isn't already patently obvious to them.

As for a few of your specific refutations:

The Fidelius

Remember that the context of this argument is that Voldemort could use the Fidelius to hide from the Ministry tracking him down via the Trace on Harry, if Harry were conspicuously kidnapped. Context is very important when considering arguments.

1. We don't know who cast the spell on the Weasley's (and possibly other Order properties). "We" could mean the Order, not Bill and Fleur specifically.

2. Regardless, even if the Weasleys did cast it themselves, it doesn't really refute the key point, which is that we have no reason to believe Voldemort knows how to cast the spell. If Dumbledore is the only one who knows how to cast it, then it makes sense that he might share it with his followers (we know he did with the Potters). This does not at all mean that Voldemort will know it. (And it's notable that the horcruxes are not hidden with it).

(You might try to turn around the above on me and say that it's not impossible that Voldemort knows the spell and that's enough, but this doesn't work. To show that there's no explanation of Voldemort's actions you have to show that this particular explanation is impossible. The possibility of impossibility is not sufficient. So long as it remains possible that Voldemort doesn't know the spell, then a possible explanation for Voldemort's actions remains.)

3. It's not clear if the Fidelius can block the Trace. Certainly the kids couldn't use magic in Grimmauld Place during OotP.

Fenrir Greyback

He was in human form in HBP, not werewolf form.

Dumbledore apparating from Hogsmeade

I didn't say it's possible that there's an anti-apparition jinx on Hogsmeade. I said there could be some kind of anti-kidnapping spell on Hogsmeade. Dumbledore wasn't kidnapping Harry. And yes, before you say it, I do believe that it's possible to cast a spell on the idea of kidnapping and not just a blanket block on apparition.


Edit: you wouldn't happen to know an Eliezer Yudkowsky, would you? You remind me of him and his disciples...
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:22 PM   #39
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I am not going to point out more of you fallacies and go tangential, why don't we argue just to prove or disprove the points with a fresh start. I won't reply to anyone else for now, just you Taure.

Book 1-

Why does he need to ask for the stone at all? Summon the stone, doesn't work, summon his pants, crash a stone on his head, so many more options which don't involve using direct magic on Harry. I am sure the protection doesn't cover his pants? or will stop a stone? Even if it will, the fact the it's not even tried and he tries to wrestle it from him, that is unbecoming to the greatest evil wizard.

More to type, wait.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Why does he need to ask for the stone at all? Summon the stone, doesn't work, summon his pants, crash a stone on his head, so many more options which don't involve using direct magic on Harry. I am sure the protection doesn't cover his pants? or will stop a stone? Even if it will, the fact the it's not even tried and he tries to wrestle it from him, that is unbecoming to the greatest evil wizard.
Possible explanations:

1. Dumbledore could have made the stone unsummonable.

2. Why would Voldemort immediately choose an indirect vector of attack? He has no reason to believe Harry has protection (if he did, he probably wouldn't have attacked physically either). Him grabbing Harry physically seems to be the obvious first choice, given how close they were standing. (Someone already mentioned this, but you ignored it). And if he did use magic, his obvious first choice would still be a direct attack, which would still result in bad guy going boom.

3. Clothes seem to have an interesting status, magically. They can be included in an animagus transformation, and they don't block spells, even though physical barriers generally do. In general, clothes seem to be magically part of that person. It might be that summoning clothes would work in the same way as if you summoned a person.

4. Remember that this isn't Voldemort in the driving seat, it's Quirrell.

Quote:
More to type, wait.
Please reply normally rather than editing.

Also, serious lol at

Quote:
I am not going to point out more of you fallacies and go tangential
I'l play your game so long as it entertains me, under the caveat that following my argument above, all I have to show is that there exists some possible explanation of the actions you present as unexplainable.
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Last edited by Taure; 12-16-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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