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Old 12-16-2013, 03:16 PM   #41
Havaiamas
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Him grabbing Harry physically seems to be the obvious first choice, given how close they were standing. (Someone already mentioned this, but you ignored it).
No I did not, I think you have chosen to ignore my replies, I gave the extract from the book and showed him how this was not the case, Quirell definitely had to catch him and not just grab his hand. Try not to read selectively.

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And if he did use magic, his obvious first choice would still be a direct attack, which would still result in bad guy going boom.
Should have tried that then, that seems like the smart move even though it would have backfired, but if clothes are in protection too, there is no way Voldemort could have harmed Harry, Harry had to win, what a bummer. The whole series he wins because the author makes it impossible for him to lose, no stakes. The dei ex machine, ugh, this is coming from someone who loved HP some years back.

Also, If you want assumptions, it onvious Dumbledore knew someone will try to steal the stone, someone who has the courage to drink unicorn blood, why didn't he cast a spell in room where the stone was kept, which makes it possible to enter the room, but not leave it. Surely a spell like this is very much possible in HP, I can come up with many more assumptions, so let's not assume.

Book 3-

Not body-binding Pettigrew. They are using the same magic to transport Snape, don't tell me about emotions, because they were all hopeful while coming out, I have given evidence for positive effects of hope too, find it. Also, why is it not standard practice to body bind all your prisoners? Doesn't matter who, good or evil, it is so simple and so effective. I find that infuriating and not at all the work of a genius author.

Not using spell on Lupin while converting, what evidence do we have that werewolves are immune? Even if they are, read this

A cloud shifted. There were suddenly dim shadows on the ground. Their party was bathed in
moonlight.


Snape collided with Lupin, Pettigrew, and Ron, who had stopped abruptly. Black froze. He flung
out one arm to make Harry and Hermione stop.

Harry could see Lupin’s silhouette. He had gone rigid. Then his limbs began to shake.

“Oh, my —” Hermione gasped. “He didn’t take his potion tonight! He’s not safe!”

“Run,” Black whispered. “Run. Now.”

But Harry couldn’t run. Ron was chained to Pettigrew and Lupin. He leapt forward but Black
caught him around the chest and threw him back.

“Leave it to me — RUN!”

There was a terrible snarling noise. Lupin’s head was lengthening. So was his body. His
shoulders were hunching. Hair was sprouting visibly on his face and hands, which were curling
into clawed paws. Crookshanks’s hair was on end again; he was backing away —


Black had enough time to stun Lupin before he converted, what do you say now? I find so many conveniences insulting to my intelligence.

Book 4-

Again, forget your anti-kidnapping charm, doesn't exist in canon. Let me state the facts, forms are signed to allow kids to go to Hogsmeade, we can apparate from there, side along apparition cannot be resisted. Whisking Harry from there was very easy.

Now hiding him. Fidelius charm, Rowling has stated this is one of the most ancient spell, not an invention of Dumbledore or the only one who knew about it.

Professor Flitwick tells us the charm is:

"an immensely complex spell ... involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." (PoA pg 205/152)


There you go, seems unlikely Voldemort wouldn't have known about it, if he didn't, he obviously would have known about it after Pettigrew told him.

For the trace, the trace can tell the location, but if that location is under fidelius charm, aurors still won't be able to catch, they will keep waiting outside like the death eaters.

Crouch could have hidden Harry in moody's trunk too and kept him at the castle, which would have been riskier.

About the trace, it activates on magic cast near the underage wizard, what happened in the graveyard, why didn't he get immediate warnings from MoM then? Ministry didn't even knew what spells Hary used from his own wand, why?

Will post 5 and 6 tomorrow, have to sleep.

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Old 12-16-2013, 03:42 PM   #42
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why didn't he cast a spell in room where the stone was kept, which makes it possible to enter the room, but not leave it. Surely a spell like this is very much possible in HP
It's almost like there was a door of flames that stopped people from leaving.

Quote:
Not body-binding Pettigrew. They are using the same magic to transport Snape, don't tell me about emotions, because they were all hopeful while coming out, I have given evidence for positive effects of hope too, find it. Also, why is it not standard practice to body bind all your prisoners? Doesn't matter who, good or evil, it is so simple and so effective. I find that infuriating and not at all the work of a genius author.
It's possible that the animagus transformation would allow Pettigrew to escape regardless of how he was bound.

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Not using spell on Lupin while converting, what evidence do we have that werewolves are immune? Even if they are, read this
It's possible that they're immune, that's enough. We don't need evidence to say that it's possible. The absence of it being impossible is enough for it to be a reasonable explanation.

As for the next part, it's entirely possible (I'd even go so far as to say the default position) that a person being stunned before the werewolf transformation would have zero impact on if they were stunned after.

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Again, forget your anti-kidnapping charm, doesn't exist in canon.
Seems like you've already forgotten my post above. Again, the possibility of an explanation is enough to refute the statement "Y action means character X must be stupid".

For someone with a self-proclaimed genius intelligence, you're having a lot of trouble grasping that point.

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Let me state the facts, forms are signed to allow kids to go to Hogsmeade
Not sure what relevance this has. Forms are signed IRL for permission to give sex education to kids. Doesn't mean that sex education is dangerous.

There are also numerous other reasons not to kidnap Harry early, which are already in this thread. One possibility is that the ritual needed a specific date and kidnapping him in advance of that date would just increase the risk of being caught (see: Trace). Another reason is that Hogsmeade would be full of people, and there would be too great a chance of being caught/interrupted in the process of apparating. Another is the possibility, mentioned above, of spells preventing it.

Fidelius: the point is not who knows about it, the point is who knows how to cast it. It's possible (maybe even probably, though that's off the point) that Voldemort doesn't know.

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For the trace, the trace can tell the location, but if that location is under fidelius charm, aurors still won't be able to catch, they will keep waiting outside like the death eaters.
It's possible that the Trace can bypass the Fidelius. The Fidelius is not 100% foolproof. It doesn't seem to affect House Elves, for a start. Dobby entered Grimmauld Place easily enough.

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why didn't he get immediate warnings from MoM then
Thus the importance of kidnapping him without people realising he had been kidnapped. If the Ministry were looking for Harry, they could find him.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:44 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Havaiamas View Post
"an immensely complex spell ... involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a living soul. (PoA pg 205/152)
That right there is why Voldemort could never use the Fidelius.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:46 PM   #44
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That right there is why Voldemort could never use the Fidelius.
Well, doesn't that just... kinda imply that Voldemort couldn't be the secret keeper? If he knew how to cast the spell, he could make someone else the secret keeper, no? Though that contrasts with his character.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:53 PM   #45
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Seems like you've already forgotten my post above. Again, the possibility of an explanation is enough to refute the statement "Y action means character X must be stupid".
I ignored it because its sets up for you to win on everything, why, because it is a magical world, almost all kinds of spells are possible, you will keep assuming, I am genius enough to recognize that. Goodbye.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:00 PM   #46
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The reason why it sets me up to win is because your position practically defeats itself. I'm glad you have now realised this.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:01 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MonkeyEpoxy View Post
Well, doesn't that just... kinda imply that Voldemort couldn't be the secret keeper? If he knew how to cast the spell, he could make someone else the secret keeper, no? Though that contrasts with his character.
Exactly, he would never trust the secret to someone else, and it may be that he can't keep the secret with an incomplete soul, thus has no reason or use for the Fidelius.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:02 PM   #48
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Well, he gave Lucius and Bellatrix a horcrux each, so I think he would have had sufficient trust to have them be secret keepers, were he both capable of casting the spell and had enough knowledge of the spell to do so.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:03 PM   #49
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I like to think he never told them what it was, only that they keep it safe. It implies he trusts them on some level, but a secret that requires a living soul seems a bit more than he'd be able to give.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:05 PM   #50
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Well, I don't think he would have to tell them what the horcruxes were to have them be secret keepers for the locations the horcruxes were hidden.

If he were truly ruthless he could even have them be the secret keeper, make them tell him the secret, and then kill them.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:06 PM   #51
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Wouldn't that break the chain and allow the secret to be revealed though? Or is it that, once they're dead he's the only one who knows the secret in which case he becomes the Secret Keeper?
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:08 PM   #52
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The reason why it sets me up to win is because your position practically defeats itself. I'm glad you have now realised this.
It's because I am arguing with irrational people who cannot see their fallacy. J.K. Rowling has duped an entire generation into believing it is high quality fiction, when in fact she set herself to win, everything is possible, whatever shit I write can be defended. I can see through her trick and I don't find it assuming, a smart author, with the same guidelines, and the whole world will be different. She just copies stuff from here and there, uses dei ex machina, convenient plot coupons, makes a magic equivalent of everything to amuse the unimaginative and makes riches. 100 years from now, if humans are still thriving, love for HP will be a sign of human stupidity, just like Twilight and Hunger Games. Pop and kitsch trash exalted as work of geniuses.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:09 PM   #53
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....Way to describe just about every author ever...

Also, calling yourself a genius is the first step to becoming an evil- well you get the point.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:15 PM   #54
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It's because I am arguing with irrational people who cannot see their fallacy.
I don't think you know what the word fallacy means. "Fallacy" is not a general characteristic of a person like "stupidity" or "intelligence", it's a standard argument form which is logically flawed. E.g. "appeal to popular opinion" "appeal to authority" "denying the antecedant" etc. Even using the word "fallacy" without saying which fallacy it is you're talking about is rather funny.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:26 PM   #55
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I don't think you know what the word fallacy means. "Fallacy" is not a general characteristic of a person like "stupidity" or "intelligence", it's a standard argument form which is logically flawed. E.g. "appeal to popular opinion" "appeal to authority" "denying the consequent" etc. Even using the word "fallacy" without saying which fallacy it is you're talking about is rather funny.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fallacy

Oops, you put your foot in your mouth again.

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Old 12-16-2013, 04:30 PM   #56
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1. Fallacy is a technical term, a general-use dictionary is not a valid source of evidence. It would be like looking in the dictionary for the correct use of "mass". You want a physics book, not a dictionary. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

2. Most amusingly, even with the definition you provided your sentence "I am arguing with irrational people who cannot see their fallacy." is not correct. The page linked tells you that it is a word used to describe ideas, not people. If you used the plural in would work: "people who cannot see their fallacies". I.e. the poor arguments they use in general. But singular makes it like an object they possess like an arm, not a thing in general. "I can't see my fallacy, does anyone know where I left it? I think it might be at work."
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:31 PM   #57
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What Taure was stating and which is quite clear is that "fallacy" is a noun, not an adverb or adjective...

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Old 12-16-2013, 04:44 PM   #58
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What Taure was stating and which is quite clear is that "fallacy" is a noun, not an adverb or adjective...

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So is stupidity and intelligence, they are both nouns! You please shut up, you're out of your depth.


---------- Post automerged at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Taure View Post
1. Fallacy is a technical term, a general-use dictionary is not a valid source of evidence. It would be like looking in the dictionary for the correct use of "mass". You want a physics book, not a dictionary. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

2. Most amusingly, even with the definition you provided your sentence "I am arguing with irrational people who cannot see their fallacy." is not correct. The page linked tells you that it is a word used to describe ideas, not people. If you used the plural in would work: "people who cannot see their fallacies". I.e. the poor arguments they use in general. But singular makes it like an object they possess like an arm, not a thing in general. "I can't see my fallacy, does anyone know where I left it? I think it might be at work."
Oh yes, wikipedia is genuinely more reliable than merriam webster. You just know one usage of the word. You're quite naive in thinking that impression it gives to you is the right one. A sentence from Miriam-Webster, The fallacy of their ideas about medicine soon became apparent.

Have you seen the fallacy of their ideas, it's green, big and round, I heard someone from Chile likes putting it up his ass. It's rather funny.

I find it amusing that you think plural works but singular doesn't. I cannot see my fallacies, I cannot see my fallacy, both are one hundred percent correct.

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Old 12-16-2013, 04:49 PM   #59
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You're saying things, but they're failing to support your position but rather just backing me up.

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The fallacy of their ideas about medicine soon became apparent.
This is correct. It refers to "their ideas", not "them", and references a particular topic about which their ideas are fallacious.

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It's because I am arguing with irrational people who cannot see their fallacy.
This does neither of those things.

Also, you might be interested in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliabi...rative_studies

Incidentally, I'm not from Chile. Time to lurk a bit more.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:49 PM   #60
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This is just ... gold.
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