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Old 06-16-2014, 10:01 AM   #1
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Help Me Find Out: Did Man Walk With Dinosaurs

So as some of you guys are no doubt aware I've been the butt of many jokes on this forum since joining because I'm a creationist.

I think that the Earth was made by God in six days and that he rested on the seventh.

I think that this is explained with things like the rings of saturn growing farther away, the rotation of the earth and its slowing spin, the flood of Noah. Etc.

Even the problem of Carbon Equilibrium for carbon dating.

I think that if you go into it with an open mind and look at all sides of the issue you'll find that the indirect evidence for a God created world is there.

But I don't want to get the topic locked by getting into an argument about that. I just wanted to give some background information for those who don't know me.

So recently I was browsing the internet and a subject which I believe in (Dinosaurs walking with man) came to mind. Now I do this every now and then and try to look at my beliefs and clash them against everything in existence to see if they still hold. Well it lead me to this and I was hoping we could discuss the events and figure out as a group whether they were real or not.

Since this would most likely cinch the existence of dinosaur with man for me.

I view DLP as a crowd of highbrow intelligentsia types and could think of no better place to see if this event was real or not.

The thing I'm talking about is the Alcambaro Statues or the Julsrud Collection.

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-acambaro.htm

In the 1940s, 30,000 some odd figurines were extracted by a peasent farmer and his family for a German Archeologist named Jelsrud. He decided to show the world his collection, which included some dinosaur figurines, and it was proclaimed a hoax.

This article goes on to detail the situations which led to him being ridiculed and how his collection was slandered. I found this interesting but to be honest unprovable since I didn't live through the events, and googling articles would tell me the same thing.

I did however look up the Alcambre statues and saw that the light dating technology that the article mentions as fake is called Thermoluminescence Dating.

I tried to understand the dating method and got the gist of it. An electron is trapped in an impurity in the crystalline (impure ion, crack) and being trapped causes a disturbance in the electrical field that is measured. What I don't get is how this tells them age since they go on to say that an impurity can trap an electron for hundreds of thousands of years.

I'm assuming now that they measure the depth of the impurity, know how long the atom would be trapped there and then measure it's current position to know how long it has been in there. Well when they first did this method they measured at 2500 years old.

When they did it again the Wikipedia article says that it was 30 years old from 1959, but then I saw the source and it goes on to say that there were complications and those numbers were calculated using chemiluminescence.

So I googled Chemiluminescence and found that it is light and heat measurements generated from an exothermic reaction. This one is a bit more complicated because from what I understood of it there are different reactants and I'm assuming they all play out differently with different materials. Plus I question how the light data is quantified into an age. Do they measure one photon and extrapolate? Do they know if there is a group effect?

Well I found that a bit dodgy and it sent a warning flag at me. Why did the straight up test, which seems like there is no wiggle room (unless some flying rock with a strong EM field could effect the electrons) get shafted?

I also read in the article that there were carbon dates that were old but discarded because the figurines were of dinosaurs.

So a lot happens in that article and I'm still wondering about it.

Help discerning whether this is real or not is greatly appreciated.
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Old 06-16-2014, 10:48 AM   #2
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A bit off topic, but out of curiosity would you describe yourself as a young earth creationist? If so do you extend that to the universe as a whole? By which I mean do you believe everything in existence came into being only thousands of years ago, or just the earth?
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:37 AM   #3
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Edit: Since I already gave some background info.

Yes, I think the entire universe came into existence with one spoken sentence. Because God is just the head honcho who can manipulate matter like that.

Of interest are the galaxies that spiral backwards in comparison to the others. The law of angular momentum states that it is conserved.

Had all matter been an infinitesimally small speck of dust at the Big Bang all galaxies would be spinning in the same direction.

The same can be said for the lack of star formation and Boyle's Gas Law applying to it.

I didn't PM. But let's stay focused on these statues.

Last edited by thisperson; 06-16-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:43 AM   #4
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TL;DR: Did man walk with dinosaurs? No. Hope that clears it up.

Dude... do you really want to start this discussion? Fuck, this is not even a discussion. Discussing the ridiculous concept of creationism lends this bathsit stupid belief a pseudo-scientific authority it absolutely doesn't deserve. Not to mention this one topic opens up a whole can of other crazy shit.

I cannot fathom how anyone in the modern world could believe creationism to be true. But really, I needn't rant about it. Nature is working. Sooner or later, evolution will take care of this bullshit on its own and we'll be able to move on to more pressing issues instead of debating whether Adam and Ever rode velociraptors around Eden. As far as works of fiction go, the Bible is among the dullest fucking things I've ever had the displeasure of coming across.

Then again, perhaps the existance of creationism serves some purpose. If someone believes in it, it's a quick and simple way to determine that they're not worth your time.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:46 AM   #5
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Did Man Walk With Dinosaurs
Not yet. But I have a few ideas. One day I will make jurassic park a reality.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:48 AM   #6
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Well there is that looming thing that if Creation is real, God is real. Then we have someone to answer to.

But I'm not here to preach to you. I don't pay much attention to scripture. This idea would not leave me at 14. I almost became an atheist when everyone made fun of me for it and I started searching for answers. Eventually I stuck with creationism because that's what all my searching led me to believe was real.
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Old 06-16-2014, 12:09 PM   #7
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What I don't get is how this tells them age since they go on to say that an impurity can trap an electron for hundreds of thousands of years.
Just going off the wiki article it seems to work like this:

1. Radiation from various sources knocks electrons out of atoms in the material.
2. These electrons are either "reabsorbed" or become "trapped" as free electrons in the material
3. Heating the material gives all these trapped electrons the energy to be reabsorbed, and in doing so they emit bursts of light.
4. Measuring the intensity of light tells you how many electrons are being absorbed and so, assuming that they are trapped over time at a predictable rate, tells you how long it has been since the material was zeroed.

Apologies to anyone with more than my cursory knowledge if I've butchered the science, and to thisperson if I've misunderstood what you were uncertain about.
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Old 06-16-2014, 12:14 PM   #8
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Eventually I stuck with creationism because that's what all my searching led me to believe was real.
So what you're telling me, is that you got lost on the way of life?
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Old 06-16-2014, 12:31 PM   #9
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Seriously. There's legitimately no way to take this conversation seriously. There's nothing of value here, move along.
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Old 06-16-2014, 01:28 PM   #10
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We've had this conversation before. It doesn't go anywhere constructive. You're not looking for answers. You think you already have the answer. What you're looking for is vindication.

You won't find it here.

Young Earth Creationism is utterly indefensible. Even the Vatican says it's got no scientific basis. This isn't the usual 'well maybe God did the Big Bang' God-of-the-gaps wriggle room, this is so provably wrong not even the Papacy tries to prop it up any more.



Literally billions of Christians manage to reconcile science with their beliefs. Why can't you? The answer is simple: arrogance. You're so fucking arrogant you think you can disprove the entire scientific field of carbon dating with Google.

1 Peter 5:6, NIV: 6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
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Old 06-16-2014, 02:56 PM   #11
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The biblical creation narrative itself is contradictory, as two distinct creation mythologies are described in the first two chapters of Genesis.

If one is content to pick and choose what science one wishes to accept, discarding all the rest for matters of "faith" (as in, "I believe what I do and refuse to accept any contrary information that might challenge my faith"), then there's no discussion. Just believe whatever chicken-bone-waving hoodoo you wish. Just don't, to paraphrase Ken Kesey, expect us to join you on your bad trip.
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Old 06-16-2014, 03:39 PM   #12
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Well I did find this: http://web.archive.org/web/201209080...ro-figures.htm

It's logical dissection of the situation leads me to believe that they were fake. Namely the told them he would pay them for every one they brought in part.

Well there are still the 16th century Ica Stones (of the non-hoax variety) and the Wall of Babylon. But it's not hard evidence. Basically what amounts to confusion and a cave painting.
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Old 06-16-2014, 03:51 PM   #13
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Well I did find this: http://web.archive.org/web/201209080...ro-figures.htm

It's logical dissection of the situation leads me to believe that they were fake. Namely the told them he would pay them for every one they brought in part.

Well there are still the 16th century Ica Stones (of the non-hoax variety) and the Wall of Babylon. But it's not hard evidence. Basically what amounts to confusion and a cave painting.

In other words, as was said above, you've no real evidence at all.

Look, believe what you want to believe, just don't pretend there's a scientific basis for it, that's all.
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Old 06-16-2014, 04:49 PM   #14
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Yeah, we have two options here:

Number one, Mexicans thousands of years ago randomly made tens of thousands of figures, most of which bear little similarity to modernly-known dinosaurs, and buried them for no particular reason. The figures then were not broken, stained or crushed after millennia underground or the poor archaeological methods of the farmers digging them up, and presented, only for the entire scientific community to conspire together to bury the 'true knowledge'.

Number two, a guy with lots of money offered cash for little figurines, and the poor Mexican farmers decided to take advantage. They based them on dinosaurs and other fantastical creatures, because they looked cool and weren't too difficult. Some people picked up on it as proof of something-or-another, and took it to scientists who told them to stop wasting their time.

The problem with your 'Thermoluminescence Dating', thisperson, is basically the illegitimacy and impreciseness of the data. Dating scientists aren't blocking this out of malice - but most dating methods can be, like you implied, very imprecise. Variances of a few thousand years, let alone thirty, aren't unlikely. Were the original tests repeated with the same results, and most of the impreciseness (i.e. impurities) removed, then we could talk.

But hey! Look on the bright side: if dinosaurs really did walk only a few thousand years ago, there should be plenty of proof! Bones and even preserved bodies should be turning up all over the place, and these statuettes shouldn't even be a footnote, so it doesn't matter how legitimate they are. The scientists can't keep silent forever.

I'm sorry, OP, you seem like a fairly sensible sort and I appreciate the lack of preachy-ness, but this was a poor piece of evidence to hitch your wagon to.

tl;dr: Be careful coming into a situation with your mind already made up. Match the answer to the evidence, not the evidence to the answer.
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Old 06-16-2014, 05:58 PM   #15
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Mobile censorship squad go!

Let's not and say we did.
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