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Old 12-08-2016, 05:36 PM   #5761
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The current president had predilections for expert knowledge. He favored academics where possible and irked men like George Soros for it.

We know that working class folks suspect intellectuals and professionals as quacks and liars on the socialist state payroll. (Don't tell me what to do! Don't tell me what to think! You don't know better than I do!)

Working class folks like billionaires. Billionaires earned their money fair and square. So the stuff I'm getting on my liberal feed: "WWC voted for a man making appointments against their interests ($15 min wage, worker protection)" is mostly off, it's the wrong demographic for those policy discussions.

You know who else they like? Military men. Not only is there that cheap image of constant self-sacrifice, but they're down in the ditches getting hands dirty. They're worldly men too, with our kind of global projection.

This is less Trump being pro-war and more Trump favoring his working-class instincts.

He may live on Fifth Ave now, but he's a Queens kid through and through.
Wait. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaait a moment there. Are you telling me, really, that Blue Collar Billionaire isn't just stupidity?
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:23 PM   #5762
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It's a very puritanical moral calculus, isn't it? If you're rich, you've been virtuous and hardworking; if you're poor, you're deficient.

A good plurality of people continue to refer to Trump's business competence. Many haven't heard of details like his tax avoidance, and those who have either 1) wave it off as business acumen (the government didn't deserve his money anyway) 2) acknowledge it as a moral failing but treat it as exception, not rule 3) acknowledge that the system is rigged but see Trump as the price to pay for an agent of change

There's a particular class sensibility at play here. Just as people blame their immediate point-of-contact (banks) when the financial system fails, because banks are all they know, so do middle-working class people chafe at the people in contact with them: the lower class they see and sometime serve, thanks to a social welfare system that may literally employ them; and the upper-middle class managers who order them around.

Class is less about income levels and more about manners of living life, right? The conservative-leaning working class feels they can identify with the rich, who are mostly absent from their lives. The dream is to be your own boss, to preserve your own friendship networks and leisure rituals and communal values, etc. They don't want to be upper-middle class. They just want to be themselves, be amongst people who speak and think like them, but with more money and security/freedom.

Plenty of people in the world who earn comfortable incomes but reserve "sensibilities" of origin, grew up with middle class insecurities or lower class habits. Trump never outgrew being a guy from Queens; money bought him admission but never belonging into the Manhattan socialite world. And there was a class or two above him where money couldn't even do that.

Agency in the narration of a rigged system flips between class narratives. For urban liberals, the rich are the manipulators. For conservative working class folks, it's the rent-seeking nature of administrative centers (cities) and the managerial class. Like this one surgeon in western Pennsylvania said, "we could never be as much a threat to your way of life as you (urban liberals) have been to ours."

There's a spectrum with a variety of moral/social exceptions, we're not touching other parts of Trump's base and other reasons why they'd vote Trump, but these are base underlying structures to work off of.

And yes, if you feel you're hardworking and virtuous and still struggling, you're just a temporarily-displaced-millionaire.

Last edited by Solfege; 12-08-2016 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:58 PM   #5763
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To simplify: Trump is tacky in design choices (gold-plated everything), kind of trashy, consciously pushes against upper class sneering (aka political correctness.)

He does feel pretty working class in those aspects.
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:22 PM   #5764
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Eh, I deadlift and like to get range time, but neither activity predisposes me towards asking generals for advice. It's more about the instincts behind choosing those activities...

On the campaign trail there's a certain level of cohesion with people versus (strictly) talking at them, I think. There has to be a perceived commonality in person. A richer sense of background structure.

There are also a good number of the rich who buy into their own self-made working-man myths.

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Old 12-08-2016, 07:54 PM   #5765
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Having ambition and chafing at people who exclude you doesn't mean you're working clsss or have their behaviors. You're right Trump might have Been below the Rockerfelker's, but make no mistake he belonged to the same social circle as them. He was born with a slightly smaller silver spoon is all. @Solfege
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:25 PM   #5766
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Yeah, no. @calutron

I'm not putting Trump in that box. I was describing the working class specifically, how they might empathize with the rich, and common instincts they might share with Trump, who has a particular way of speaking and thinking derived from growing up in Queens. Queens real estate, which is where his dad operated, is a completely different market to break into vs. Manhattan. Most of my friends in school didn't even know suburban Queens existed. It's just a different world, even if his part of Queens was privileged, secluded, and white.

There's a definite mythos about wealth, and the reality is that all new money tends to be loud and unsophisticated, it's only generations down the line where they "grow" into it, if it survives. Cornelius Vanderbilt was a crude, crude man.

You're right that Trump rubbed shoulders within many social circles - if by that you mean, very generally, high society functions. But as I've said, there's a difference between "admittance" and "belonging." Money only buys you so much "admittance." Past that, old moneyed clubs and similarly exclusive private gatherings exist for a reason.

And Trump can't get in to them. But it's mostly an issue of pride, new money's established their own lavish getaways. Old money is consigned to irrelevance in the general scheme of things, with their outdated values and sailing/camping expeditions. Everyone knows the rad thing is skiing in Val d’Isère. /s

Last edited by Solfege; 12-08-2016 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:02 PM   #5767
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Originally Posted by calutron View Post
Having ambition and chafing at people who exclude you doesn't mean you're working clsss or have their behaviors. You're right Trump might have Been below the Rockerfelker's, but make no mistake he belonged to the same social circle as them. He was born with a slightly smaller silver spoon is all. @Solfege
This is a uniquely American perspective, where we conflate wealth with class. Do you think someone who dropped out of school and has been working temp jobs for the last fifteen years who lucks out with a winning lottery ticket is now upper crust? Class is history, manners, interests, education. Money can get you through the door, as Solfege said, but money isn't enough on its own.

Do you think the political dynasties and heirs of nine generation fortunes looked at Trump when he was on the Apprentice and thought that he was someone with whom they wanted to spend time with? That he was a man of values similar to theirs, of interests similar to theirs?

On the contrary, new money is looked down on by the old, established fortunes. They lack history, their concept of value is tied to how much rather than how unique, and they betray their upbringing constantly. The fondest wish of new money is to be accepted by old money, or at least that was the case for a long time. Industrialization and the information age have led to the rapid acquisition of fortunes that have created a new, moneyed class that doesn't feel inferior to the wealth of yesteryears. The technology boom in particular has had the biggest impact, but it's still a transition that we're undergoing now.

Trump, in temperament, is a poor man with extra commas in his bank account.

Edit: Ha, beat me to it.
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:56 PM   #5768
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All you needed to do was to see Trump's pitiful performance at the Al Smith Dinner to see how little he belongs in the circles he desperately wishes to.

It's at the heart of his insecurity.

Now he will be President, and maybe he thinks that his betters will finally have to accept him. I think he'll be sorely disappointed. Imagine his rage when he walks into a room, hears 'Hail to the Chief' by the Army Band...and still sees their lips curl in disgust.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:10 AM   #5769
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Now he will be President, and maybe he thinks that his betters will finally have to accept him. I think he'll be sorely disappointed. Imagine his rage when he walks into a room, hears 'Hail to the Chief' by the Army Band...and still sees their lips curl in disgust.
And he'll still be their president. History will remember Donald Trump where most of his "betters" won't even be a footnote.

I don't see him losing sleep over it.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:14 AM   #5770
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Trump wants people to like him, even people he's made enemies out of, so Old Money continuing to ignore his existence except when absolutely required is going to stick in his craw.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:25 AM   #5771
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I'm with Banta on this one. Trump doesn't strike me as the kind of person who can tolerate insults from anyone, perceived or otherwise, regardless of the reason.
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:17 AM   #5772
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I don't know. He certainly didn't pander to old money elites or traditional conservatives at any stage in the election. I doubt he gives too many fucks what they think.
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:40 AM   #5773
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This is a uniquely American perspective, where we conflate wealth with class.
...
On the contrary, new money is looked down on by the old, established fortunes. They lack history, their concept of value is tied to how much rather than how unique, and they betray their upbringing constantly.
I think that perspective is because America doesn't really have a long history. There aren't many families in America who have inherited wealth going back hundreds of years. So most wealthy families haven't had the time to develop that history.
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:53 AM   #5774
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And he'll still be their president. History will remember Donald Trump where most of his "betters" won't even be a footnote.

I don't see him losing sleep over it.
Menace, Trump was a billionaire and a famous media star and he kept losing sleep because a second tier news outlet said he had fat fingers in tiny hands.
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:48 PM   #5775
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This is less Trump being pro-war and more Trump favoring his working-class instincts.
Sorry, how is Trump working class? He wasn't born into poverty, or even just into comfort. He was born into wealth. His father was born into wealth. His grandfather was the one who made the family fortune. And he died nearly 40 years before Trump was born, so there was no opportunity for him to pass on any working class ethos.

I don't deny he's appealing to the working classes with his choices, but don't try to claim he's working class himself. He's not even particularly new money, at least in the US context.
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:01 PM   #5776
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It's now confirmed Trump's DoE wil be anti climate change. The next four years will be a disaster.
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:43 PM   #5777
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It's now confirmed Trump's DoE wil be anti climate change. The next four years will be a disaster.
Correction: They appear to be trying to single out employees at DOE who worked on climate negotiations.

I'm all for raising the Trump alarm when he does something crazy, but let's stick with the facts...
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Old 12-09-2016, 04:58 PM   #5778
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Correction: They appear to be trying to single out employees at DOE who worked on climate negotiations.

I'm all for raising the Trump alarm when he does something crazy, but let's stick with the facts...
That's technically true, but I think the goal is to minimize or get rid of the employees who deal with climate change. This is AEA's blog. They support Scott Pruitt running the EPA, attack wind industry tax credits, attack the Paris Agreement, and issued this statement on redefining American energy policy. The head of AEA is also the head of Trump transition's energy team. Sure, finding out who accepts climate change might not be a big deal by itself, but the crazy part is Tom Pyle was hired by Trump.
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:19 PM   #5779
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Giuliani is out and it seems to me that he was pressured into removing himself. With it that makes both heavy weight politicians who supported Trump early out of his cabinet. Efficient and ruthless.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/09....facebook.com/

This makes me think that Petraeus will probably get the job. Of course I seem of Jon Huntsman, but apparently he isn't even in the final list.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:56 PM   #5780
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Giuliani is out and it seems to me that he was pressured into removing himself. With it that makes both heavy weight politicians who supported Trump early out of his cabinet. Efficient and ruthless.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/09....facebook.com/

This makes me think that Petraeus will probably get the job. Of course I seem of Jon Huntsman, but apparently he isn't even in the final list.
Sessions is a heavy weight politician.
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