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Old 12-13-2016, 09:17 AM   #5801
Invictus
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If Erdogan Trump thinks that Trump is all about money, than he is a bigger idiot than I thought. Trump isn't just a billionaire now, he's also POTUS and leader of NATO and someone Putin wants to stay in good terms for now much more than Erdogan.

Someone also told me that Flynn hates Erdogan and his party, and Mattis isn't a big fan of either of them. Don't know how true that is though.

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Old 12-13-2016, 11:12 AM   #5802
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Yeah, and on top of that I really don't see Trump responding well to any attempt at blackmail/bullying, especially in such a blatant and obvious way. The guy who constantly goes on about how nobody respects the power of the US isn't likely to respond well to anyone trying to push him around and not respect his power as POTUS.
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:50 AM   #5803
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If Erdogan Trump thinks that Trump is all about money, than he is a bigger idiot than I thought. Trump isn't just a billionaire now, he's also POTUS and leader of NATO and someone Putin wants to stay in good terms for now much more than Erdogan.

Someone also told me that Flynn hates Erdogan and his party, and Mattis isn't a big fan of either of them. Don't know how true that is though.
Idk, the read I get on Trump is obviously he thinks establishment politicians are idiot and if he can get his friends/other billionaires potions of power it would be the best thing for the world. Trump will do whatever he can to make that a reality including nominating Rick Perry for a position he knows nothing about.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:07 PM   #5804
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Erdogan is kicked around by the EU. The EU. Trump is willing to insult China and use Taiwan as an exchange coin, a place where he also has big monetary interests, and if I'm not mistaken he has them at China too.
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:11 PM   #5805
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Erdogan is kicked around by the EU. The EU. Trump is willing to insult China and use Taiwan as an exchange coin, a place where he also has big monetary interests, and if I'm not mistaken he has them at China too.
Just for your own benefit, the idiom you were going for was "bargaining chip."

That there are people who are legitimately alright with Trump's appointment for SoS, by the by, somehow leaves me completely baffled. It's kind of the closest Trump could come to openly sucking Putin's dick without, well, going on camera and literally fellating the man. It's the kind of gesture which either says "Thanks for the Election, buddy" or "Did I do good, master?" but requires a lot of gymnastics to interpret in any third way.
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:30 PM   #5806
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Erdogan is kicked around by the EU
Try the other way around. Example: Every. Single. Thing from the refugee crisis.
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:50 PM   #5807
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Try the other way around. Example: Every. Single. Thing from the refugee crisis.
How so? /10
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:56 PM   #5808
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Try the other way around. Example: Every. Single. Thing from the refugee crisis.
Erdogan ha some thing they fear. The EU has everything he wants. He is blackmailing them and a he got was their money. Nothing else she wanted. So much that he is willing to abandon everything and go to Russia just out of sheer desperation because Turkey economy is fragile and is nearing a precipice.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:08 PM   #5809
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Erdogan ha some thing they fear. The EU has everything he wants. He is blackmailing them and a he got was their money. Nothing else she wanted. So much that he is willing to abandon everything and go to Russia just out of sheer desperation because Turkey economy is fragile and is nearing a precipice.
Not quite. Erdogan and Putin are much more natural ideological allies than Erdogan is with Merkel, say. Turkey abandoned it's desire to be European a long time ago.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:12 AM   #5810
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Pretty good article from politico about how the Clinton campaign lost Michigan. Link. There's going too be many great books written about this election once all of the behind the scenes stuff is known.
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Old 12-14-2016, 05:55 PM   #5811
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Not quite. Erdogan and Putin are much more natural ideological allies than Erdogan is with Merkel, say. Turkey abandoned it's desire to be European a long time ago.
Not really. What unites them, more than any similar ideology is a distaste for the Western ideals while desperately trying to be accepted as a equal and respect by the same West. Same reason that China and Russia have a defense organization that doesn't do shit, but its great for propraganda to brandish against NATO.

In my views their ideals don't so much converge, as that they are on the more or less same page on receiving criticism from the West.

And really? Turkey didn't abandon that at all, it just wants to keep its "uniqueness". Their recent approach on Cyprus, the refugee deal, the attack on the Russian jet, it all points out that they still want a strong connection, while refusing to adapt. It's a paradoxical desire, sure, but no more than China's trying to court its neighbours with soft power while waving its military stick at the slightest provocation.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:29 PM   #5812
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Not really. What unites them, more than any similar ideology is a distaste for the Western ideals while desperately trying to be accepted as a equal and respect by the same West. Same reason that China and Russia have a defense organization that doesn't do shit, but its great for propraganda to brandish against NATO.

In my views their ideals don't so much converge, as that they are on the more or less same page on receiving criticism from the West.

And really? Turkey didn't abandon that at all, it just wants to keep its "uniqueness". Their recent approach on Cyprus, the refugee deal, the attack on the Russian jet, it all points out that they still want a strong connection, while refusing to adapt. It's a paradoxical desire, sure, but no more than China's trying to court its neighbours with soft power while waving its military stick at the slightest provocation.
I can't help but disagree. Erdogan and Putin are cut from the same authoritarian mold. They operate the same way, positioning themselves at the top of government but swapping jobs to avoid constitutional strictures, they both leverage constitutional reform to make themselves quasi-dictators, they both have a streak of opposition intolerance, they both use the security services to jail and silence their detractors, they both clamp down on the free press, they both use inflated claims of dangers to national security to purge dissenters from public and private institutions...

I could go on. They're natural allies, they're two sides of the same coin. The only thing that's stopped them in the past was Turkey's closer relations with the West, what with its nascent EU application and its status as a NATO member. But Turkey is fast turning away from the West; Turkey has no interest in becoming an EU member anymore, they only leverage the EU for cash rewards for refugee detention, and I wouldn't be shocked if Turkey was expelled from NATO. At which point there will be nothing for them in the West anymore. The days of Ataturk's Turkey are long gone.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:32 PM   #5813
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I can't help but disagree. Erdogan and Putin are cut from the same authoritarian mold. They operate the same way, positioning themselves at the top of government but swapping jobs to avoid constitutional strictures, they both leverage constitutional reform to make themselves quasi-dictators, they both have a streak of opposition intolerance, they both use the security services to jail and silence their detractors, they both clamp down on the free press, they both use inflated claims of dangers to national security to purge dissenters from public and private institutions...

I could go on. They're natural allies, they're two sides of the same coin.
Just because they're both authoritarians doesn't make them friends.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:42 PM   #5814
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I would argue the opposite really. As neighbouring strongman relying on Jingoism and a myth of persecution, they are bound to butt heads, as their economies start to falter thanks to an inability to have consistent and independent economic institutions, much less even competent ones, they will yurn against each other when their PR demands it, or they think they would win by doing it so.
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Old 12-15-2016, 11:08 AM   #5815
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I would argue the opposite really. As neighbouring strongman relying on Jingoism and a myth of persecution, they are bound to butt heads, as their economies start to falter thanks to an inability to have consistent and independent economic institutions, much less even competent ones, they will yurn against each other when their PR demands it, or they think they would win by doing it so.
Especially since Russian jingoism and Turkish jingoism have traditionally been opposed to each other far more than they've been compatible.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:50 PM   #5816
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Especially since Russian jingoism and Turkish jingoism have traditionally been opposed to each other far more than they've been compatible.
I agree and remember what happened at Grozny Chechen?

Putin is unlikely to ally with Turkey, unless there is another greater threat, but will likely not attack them directly either as long as Turkey is a part of NATO. The Middle Eastern Region along with North Africa are becoming increasingly unstable and with war right on Turkey's doorstep, Turkey will likely stay in close diplomatic relationship with the EU to avoid losing the safety that NATO provides.

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the idiom you were going for was "bargaining chip."
Yes, It is a two way deal. One that can be viewed as both a blessing in a disguise or a deal with the devil. Turkey is the defacto gateway to Europe and as acting door and doorman, Turkey is already taking a proper beating. Now with the war in Syria and the amount of refugees, it is no wonder they will try to gain as much from the deal as possible.
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:26 PM   #5817
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I don't get it. China grabs one of our underwater drones...and Trump says they should keep it? I don't get it.
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Old 12-18-2016, 02:59 PM   #5818
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Best explanation I can think of is that it's his idea of how to de-escalate things.
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Old 12-18-2016, 04:16 PM   #5819
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Obama wants it back, China wants to give it back. Naturally Trump wants the opposite.

It's Trump, enough said.

Edit: Not particularly new, but still an eye-opener.

The Daily Show - Trump Thank You Tour
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Old 12-18-2016, 07:05 PM   #5820
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I don't get it. China grabs one of our underwater drones...and Trump says they should keep it? I don't get it.
Yeah, seriously, his reaction to every step of this has been Unpresidented.
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