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Old 10-26-2015, 10:28 AM   #41
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@bolko7, fine, perhaps there was too much vitriol in my posts. I still maintain that maybe calling some of them idiots would get the ball rolling. Politeness isn't always the way. They'll just say "oh fuck off" and keep walking. Sometimes you need a scalpel, sometimes a hammer. It's hammer time. I talked to some of my classmates about it today, asked if they voted. A frustratingly high percentage of them just went "eerrrr..." One of them even responded "There were elections yesterday?" C'mon.
I think we all know hammer will not work on us hehe.

It is sad that ppl in some news sites are saying let hope koriwn gets in so L&J will not be able to rule alone. I mean really

The only good thing from this election will be that the old left side will die. I mean Miller and Palikot, with little bit luck we will get a good left party that actually is not about yelling but doing.

btw Liroy got in, God help us all hehe
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:55 AM   #42
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The point is that we also need those who do vote to vote smartly. Giving the country to a bunch of right-wing nationalists is not smart. Their reasons for voting that way matter little, it's just not a good thing to do.
Why is voting for nationalists a bad idea? If people want their government to be nationalistic why should they not be allowed vote for that kind of government?

I would be angry should the green party in finland ever gain more support but that doesn't mean I'm going to be saying that they voted stupidly. They propably voted for what they wanted. In my eyes they may be stupid but that doesn't mean that their vote was stupid.

Sorry for the rant. Your comment just poked me in the eye.
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:56 AM   #43
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Information is available. Pensioners might be excused,they listen to Radio Maryja (nationalistic and ultra -catholic) mostly. But young people,with internet access - no excuse for them. I'm happy to call someone an idiot,when said person refuses to put minimum effort into understanding the world around them. I know some smart L&J supporters,and they frustrate me but I respect them- they thought the matter through and came to different conclusion than me. Indifferent masses are just too lazy. And don't ask me to respect that...
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:20 PM   #44
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Why is voting for nationalists a bad idea? If people want their government to be nationalistic why should they not be allowed vote for that kind of government?

I would be angry should the green party in finland ever gain more support but that doesn't mean I'm going to be saying that they voted stupidly. They propably voted for what they wanted. In my eyes they may be stupid but that doesn't mean that their vote was stupid.

Sorry for the rant. Your comment just poked me in the eye.
Fair point. I concede. I still think the newly elected government will be bad for us. Now, I'm not saying we'll turn into Syria over the next 4 years - someone with such big experience in politics as Kaczyński would have to actively work towards a total fuck up to achieve it - but I'm not seeing what improvements they can bring about. It's like if my grandmother was elected. She's probably full of joy right now and maybe even gloating a little. I love her, but I still think her views are outdated.
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:22 PM   #45
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Fair point. I concede. I still think the newly elected government will be bad for us. Now, I'm not saying we'll turn into Syria over the next 4 years - someone with such big experience in politics as Kaczyński would have to actively work towards a total fuck up to achieve it - but I'm not seeing what improvements they can bring about. It's like if my grandmother was elected. She's probably full of joy right now and maybe even gloating a little. I love her, but I still think her views are outdated.
L&J will do nothing, just like the current gov. Economic wise they can not do a thing, it is just as 3rd rail. So only thing they can really do is yell. Plz remember that last time they were in power, outside Samobrona scandal do you know any laws that had any effect (out side Becikowe 1k zł to newborns).

The only negative effect that new Government can have is on international stage but even there they will be ignored, as we are now and as we were in last 300 years (give or take).

So I beg you stooped looking at the current election as end of the world I know polish media are selling this shit hard but really we do not have anyone that really want to change current system(Kukiz and Korwin will go away in a year or two, well Kukiz, with some luck Korwin will die).
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:58 PM   #46
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@bolko7, I'm not saying it's a goddamn apocalypse, I'm saying I don't like it. The bigger issues facing Poland would see similarly little action from Civic Platform. To repeat myself from earlier, we need a societal paradigm shift from the conservative mindset, but young people don't vote or vote for that buffoon Korwin. With L&J in power, the typical Polish petty politics of pushing each other around and warming the chair will continue.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:44 PM   #47
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Pleas give example of laws that was radical that passed, or real action that L&J did. Cuz someone yelling radical opinions is norm for many countrys, what is important is actions they take when in Power.
- Creation of CBA (which was necessary) and using it to manuver people into corruption to prosecute them;
- The entire Barbara Blida debacle;
- Macierewicz fucking our entire intelligence services by publishing a report with data about agents and sources - fuck the consequences on that one;
- Ziobro using political power to run a personal vendetta against a doctor who operated on his father and due to complications said father died - "Już nigdy nikt przez tego pana, życia nie będzie pozbawiony";

And just recently, Duda vetoing an act that would normalize the legalc actions necessary for transsexual persons to change their legal gender. Why was it vetoed? Because, according to Duda, it would allow homsexuals to marry and adopt children.

PiS doesn't have to pass any laws to prove that they are a bunch of crazy, racist, homophobic fucks. Just listen to what they say - and not in the media, in front of the cameras. Listen to what they say to their electorate in small towns around the Poland. Listen to Radio Maryja.

PiS doesn't even pretend that it want to change Poland into Hungary 2.0. That is scarry. I don't give a flying fuck about their economical ideas, 'casue they will drop them immediately (Gowin alredy did so this morning). I'm concerned about the entire ideological structre that PiS will want to build on top of our country and integrate it into as many institutions as possible.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:15 AM   #48
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- Creation of CBA (which was necessary) and using it to manuver people into corruption to prosecute them;
- The entire Barbara Blida debacle;
- Macierewicz fucking our entire intelligence services by publishing a report with data about agents and sources - fuck the consequences on that one;
- Ziobro using political power to run a personal vendetta against a doctor who operated on his father and due to complications said father died - "Już nigdy nikt przez tego pana, życia nie będzie pozbawiony";
You do know this is not a list of laws but scandals, and you might be not aware but this is the level that our politic lives is here are some great hits from Civic Platform

- Tapes and Sending CBA to a newspaper to use force to get them
- Amber Gold - and how Tusk son got his job anyone knows ?
- Krystyna Skowrońska you can lead economic adviser party in Sejm and be a Bank manager at the same time

You might not like it, I don't like it but this is how our leaders are. Be it L&J or Tusk or anyone at the moment Poland don't have good Politicion that you can trust. Listen to how Civic Platform politician speak when there is no Microphone. They are racist, they don't even think that Poland is a real country and what more they only care about themselves.

L&J party wining changes nothing in economic, change nothing in public life the only thing it changes is the amount off yelling ect. So pleas stop looking at the fog of war and start looking what ppl that we elected are doing with laws ect. You can not feed your kids with PR.

Next year we will be hit by problems from China, and we will see how they will act and what will they do. As for now I am off this topic cuz I do not like living in fear cuz media said that they are bad.

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I'm concerned about the entire ideological structre that PiS will want to build on top of our country and integrate it into as many institutions as possible.
BTW PSL did this for last 25 years, PO for last 8, this is the norm of our Poland at the moment.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:25 AM   #49
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You might not like it, I don't like it but this is how our leaders are. Be it L&J or Tusk or anyone at the moment Poland don't have good Politicion that you can trust. Listen to how Civic Platform politician speak when there is no Microphone. They are racist, they don't even think that Poland is a real country and what more they only care about themselves.

L&J party wining changes nothing in economic, change nothing in public life the only thing it changes is the amount off yelling ect. So pleas stop looking at the fog of war and start looking what ppl that we elected are doing with laws ect. You can not feed your kids with PR.
So you agree that both biggest parties are pretty much a bunch of cunts, yet you disagree that voting one of them into power is not idiotic? Wat.

There were other options available to voters, but voters still chose to support the batshit crazy fuckers. That's why people voting for them are idiots. Because everyone wants things to change for the better, but somehow they think the only options are CP or L&J. We went from bad to worse. By definition, that's not an improvement.
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Old 01-09-2016, 07:15 AM   #50
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I don't want to create a new thread, but a short follow-up question to this one... how do you feel about it all now? Anybody going to a rally today? To participate or break it up on behalf of the government ?
I believe that everything that is happening proves the direst predictions. The only hope I see is in constant pressure, internal and external, delegitimising the regime and either some defectors will make L&J lose the majority and it will force preliminary elections, or after 4 years of this mess someone else will have to rebuild our democracy from scratch.
Constitutional tribunal might try to fight back, and it's important, for the record and to make it easier to get them all in prison after they lose power, but in the short run they will probably just ignore the rulings.
The most disgusting politician (famous of saying off the record "the dumb masses will buy anything") of the L&J leading new "national" television (the word "public" no longer in use, too liberal-sounding I guess).
I do not want to move, I love the city I live in, but the moment I start to believe that L&J actually really represents Poland in its core, I'm signing out of this nation.
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Old 01-09-2016, 08:46 AM   #51
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You're welcome one border further, at least as far as I am concerned. Which doesn't seem to amount to much nowadays, but there you go.

At any rate, I hope the commission keeps up the pressure; it's about time they started asserting themselves, and I'd hate to see you leave over what now turned out to be a clear knee-jerk-response by voters.

I read good things about Ryszard Petru. Pity he's popular now, and not three months ago.
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Old 01-09-2016, 08:52 AM   #52
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In my opinion there are only two ways for PiS (L&J) to lose their power. Either there is major failing in the economy that pushes more people to rally on the streets, and I'm talking about more than 100k in Warsaw alone, or there is a break within their ranks. I suspect that Gowin and his people are most likely to do it, but even if they did, Kaczyński is already courting Kukiz'15 to ensure he doesn't lose the majority.

Anything else, like UE interference, may slow PiS down a little, but only that. Especially when Europe has other things to worry about other than what's happening in Poland.
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Old 01-09-2016, 01:12 PM   #53
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You're welcome one border further, at least as far as I am concerned. Which doesn't seem to amount to much nowadays, but there you go.

At any rate, I hope the commission keeps up the pressure; it's about time they started asserting themselves, and I'd hate to see you leave over what now turned out to be a clear knee-jerk-response by voters.

I read good things about Ryszard Petru. Pity he's popular now, and not three months ago.
Thanks

The problem with Petru is that his party is a bit like Polish FDP - traditional liberals/libertarians with limited appeal. Chances of them becoming #1 are not great. We either need a reformed Civic Platform, or an alliance of Petru with something more to the left that could get L&J social voters.
@Celestin - yes, slow down, make things uncomfortable, make some people think twice about joining L&J by making it clear that everything will be remembered and there will be consequences.

Taking part in a demonstration is a nice experience in a country, where chances of violence on such occasion are negligible. And so far it's ok. But for the first time, looking at the police around, I felt a pang of... not yet fear, but anxiety. A year from now, will there be a personal risk involved? That's new here in Poland.

A video for Polish-speaking people (I hope there will be a subtitled version, it's a rare gem) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sMG...ature=youtu.be

The best Star Wars: The Force Awakens review ever.

Right-wing Polish director analyses how Star Wars (with Empire as good guys) symbolises the dangers of liberal democracy and its attack on the traditional values. Kylo Ren would be a hero of counter-revolution of morally superior youth against their anti-nationalistic, liberal parents. In Polish it sounds awesome, because he mixes traditional right-wing phraseology with Star Wars and I'm pretty sure he is serious.
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Old 01-09-2016, 05:18 PM   #54
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I was pretty sure that L&J would win and I suspected they would rock the boat after it turned out they got majority, but I wasn't expecting that. Kaczynski must have been seriously sore for the past 8 years from all that butthurt.

They fucked with the highest court in the land, which was more than a little WTF. That TV and everything else would be getting L&J approved leadership was a given, because everyone does that, but they went a step further. Granted, I can't know that Civic Platform wouldn't have tried something there if they'd had majority.

Then the Minister of Defence played hardball with NATO, following it up with the long-awaited, seen-it-coming, plan to uncover the truth about the 2010 Smolensk crash. The quest for revenge must continue.

It's both funny and pathetic how obvious it is that our new Prime Minister is just Kaczynski's puppet, to free up time for evil chortling and planning the next big move.
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Old 01-09-2016, 06:03 PM   #55
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It's both funny and pathetic how obvious it is that our new Prime Minister is just Kaczynski's puppet, to free up time for evil chortling and planning the next big move.
The Prime Minister is nothing new. Kaczynski did it once, Krzaklewski did it too, but in the end in both times their candidates did grow a backbone. That probably will not happen this time though. What's a lot worse is the complete control over the President that Kaczynski has.
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Old 01-10-2016, 01:38 PM   #56
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It probably doesn't add much to the discussion, but I found it rather apt when my friend described the current government as being a 'dumpster full of toxic things that's currently on fire, with the stench slowly spreading all over the neighborhood'.

And the pressure that the European Council or whatever can put on Poland? Only more fuel for the paranoia of The Party of Righteousness.

Couldn't be happier that I can move somewhere else on a relatively short notice when the need arises.
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:44 AM   #57
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Opinion piece from the FT today:

https://next.ft.com/content/43967d14...e-8a339b6f2164

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Poland’s threat to European solidarity

Democracy, as often happens with authoritarians, is being redefined as the will of the majority


Philip Stephens

The anxious chatter in Europe is about an axis of authoritarianism. Poland is becoming the new Hungary. The analogy is inexact. Viktor Orban, the autocratic prime minister of Hungary, is an embarrassing irritant. Poland is a serious player in the geopolitics of the continent.

The unspoken fear is that the wind across Europe is behind the nativists. The streams of refugees fleeing war and poverty in the Middle East and beyond have stoked the fires of identity politics. Poland and Hungary are not alone among former communist states in slamming their doors. For their part, the leaders of “old” Europe are increasingly preoccupied with containing or appeasing anti-immigrant populism.

The politics of fear is at once distorting and contagious. Few would argue that the neo-Nazis who terrorised parts of Leipzig this week spoke for the German people. Yet the new year assaults on German women in Cologne have prompted widespread stereotyping of Syrian and Iraqi refugees. No, they are not all criminal rapists.

Angela Merkel emerged last year as a brave champion of the open, liberal Europe that not so long ago everyone took for granted. The German chancellor remembers where ethnic scapegoating can lead. Yet she is now in some political trouble for her pains.

The ambitions of the recently installed Law and Justice administration in Poland go beyond safeguarding that nation’s ethnic and confessional homogeneity against supposed Muslim hordes. Under the leadership of the ultra-conservative Jaroslaw Kaczynski (the place of Beata, prime minister, Szydlo is simply to offer a softer face), the party has seized control of the state media, judicial system and constitutional court. Democracy, as often happens with authoritarians, is being redefined as the will of the majority.

Hence the parallels drawn with Mr Orban. An admirer of Russia’s Vladimir Putin, the Hungarian leader set something of a template with his assault on the checks and balances underpinning his country’s post-communist democracy. Unabashed xenophobia, disregard for the rule of law, a state-directed economy and a permissive environment for rising anti-semitism complete the mix.

The stakes are higher in Poland. The EU’s sixth-largest economy and a pivotal member of Nato, it had emerged from the collapse of communism a successful market economy and a beacon of democracy. Germany saw it as a natural ally. Officials in Berlin speculated that, were Britain to be foolish enough to quit the EU, Poland would replace it as a consequential partner. Even after Law and Justice’s victory in October, few imagined that Polish ministers would soon be disinterring the ghosts of Nazism in response to German criticism of Warsaw’s authoritarian tilt.

Poland is not following blindly in Hungary’s footsteps. The biggest recipient of EU funding, it wants to avoid Budapest’s mistake of driving away private overseas investors. Much as Mr Orban routinely decries Brussels and all its liberal works, he is dependent on EU handouts. The Hungarian economy is propped up by annual EU aid worth 6 per cent of national income.

Polish ministers have been careful to emphasise that investors have nothing to fear from their brand of state capitalism. As for Mr Putin, if Mr Orban cannot conceal his infatuation, Mr Kaczynski sees Moscow as a serious threat. He is pressing Nato to set up permanent bases in Poland to deter Mr Putin’s revanchism. The irony here apparently goes unnoticed: the Atlantic alliance was established as the guardian of the liberal brand of democracy Mr Kaczynski now professes to disdain.

No one can quarrel with Law and Justice’s mandate to complete what it sees as unfinished political business from the end of the cold war. Poland, like any EU state, has its own choices to make about religion, culture, social policy or the balance between market and state.

The EU, though, is a club with rules. Where Poland’s partners have a legitimate voice is in weighing up whether the concentration of power in the hands of the ruling party meets the test of political pluralism. The European Commission is assessing whether the media and judicial changes respect this “rule of law framework”. Warsaw’s response is that the measures have been misrepresented. There is not much the commission can do beyond express disquiet.

The power of public censure, though, should not be underestimated. Washington has already voiced concern. And it is hard to see what Warsaw has to gain from a permanent rupture with Germany. Like it or not, Poland’s prosperity and security are bound up with those of more liberally minded allies.

The big risk for today’s Europe is of fragmentation in the face of the multiple stresses of economic stagnation, high unemployment and rising levels of migration. What has been missing, to borrow an expression, is solidarity.

There is another irony seemingly lost on leaders such as Mr Orban and Mr Kaczynski. Even as they rail against outsiders, there are those further west who now question whether EU enlargement was itself such a good idea. You do not have to look far to find nostalgia for the old “core” Europe of a handful of like-minded democracies. Perhaps it says something, too, that the immigrants demonised by far-right populists in Britain are not Syrians, but Romanians, Bulgarians and, yes, Hungarians and Poles.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:53 AM   #58
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Yeah, the new government is high as a kite, but we knew that back in October.

Our PM has been insisting that no, the EU isn't doing what they're telling everyone they're doing in regards to Poland and she's been telling the EU that her government hasn't been doing what everyone can see it's been doing and letters were misinterpreted.

Also, I heard in news today that press access to the MPs has been restricted. Journalists are not allowed into some back rooms anymore. Apparently it's the first time in 9 years this has been done (in the name of order). Coincidentally, 9 years ago was the last time L&J was running things.
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Old 01-15-2016, 03:40 PM   #59
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I expected things to be bad with PiS in power, mainly on economic level and with more conservative worldview. But going against Constitutional Tribunal what the fuck!? I mean it wasn't perfect before but now it's crippled and dysfunctional.

To make things even more interesting they already passed new Invigilation law that many non government organizations call as unconstitutional

Ps. S&P lowered Poland's rating today

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Old 01-15-2016, 04:53 PM   #60
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L&J had just a private meeting where Kaczynski apparently mentioned something about a need to change a voting system in Poland. For now it isn't reported as anything big, but it scares me more than anything else than L&J is doing right now. Why? Because every since I read their proposition for a new constitution I had this feeling that it's not something anyone would want to pass unless they were sure they'll always be the ones in power.
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