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View Poll Results: How did you vote?
I voted for Trump, I agree with his politics. 8 2.54%
I voted for Hillary, I agree with her politics. 59 18.73%
I voted for Trump, I disagree with Hillary's politics. 13 4.13%
I voted for Hillary, I disagree with Trump's politics. 39 12.38%
I voted independent. 16 5.08%
I did not vote. 26 8.25%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Trump, I agree with his politics. 12 3.81%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Hillary, I agree with her politics. 42 13.33%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Trump, I disagree with Hillary's politics. 23 7.30%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Hillary, I disagree with Trump's politics. 77 24.44%
Voters: 315. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:05 PM   #21
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If Hillary's campaign's primary message wasn't "Everyone who supports Trump belongs in the basket of deplorables", if the media hadn't spent the entire time banging on about how awful Trump is and how the people who support him are such terrible people, if we could have had a conversation on the merits of supporting Trump without it immediately devolving into accusations of -ism and -phobia, he would have had orders of magnitude less support.
The funny thing is, that wasn't her campaign's primary message. She was speaking to people as people, her infrastructural and jobs plan being a central part of her pivot towards the Midwest. Her speeches on inclusivity were meant to target towards the rural and small-town economic outcasts as much as they were towards the urban minorities.

The fact that you and others feel differently tells me more about the conservative/rural echo chambers that exist in your space of the world than it does about HRC's outreach. Or rather, it tells me her failure to penetrate the echo chambers in your space and in your head, the radio ads playing the "deplorables" statement over and over, playing all her scandals to add a wave of noise fuzzling out her actual message. The conversations between neighbors over deep resentments on the popular perceptions of the non-urban Other by HRC's most vocal backers and supporters.

You're right about most of the rest, about the media and HRC's supporters being so quick to box up the issues to their detriment. You're wrong about one: the media was right to bang on about how awful Trump is. But they should never have conflated the vast majority of his supporters with the alt-right.

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Old 11-10-2016, 02:06 PM   #22
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That's what I mean by it finally biting them in the ass; If Hillary's campaign's primary message wasn't "Everyone who supports Trump belongs in the basket of deplorables", if the media hadn't spent the entire time banging on about how awful Trump is and how the people who support him are such terrible people, if we could have had a conversation on the merits of supporting Trump without it immediately devolving into accusations of -ism and -phobia, he would have had orders of magnitude less support.
The problem is that there are no merits in supporting Trump from any point of view that relies on the fundamentally, democratic consensus we thought we had but apparently don't.

Thus, the media, who are usually thought as serving to protect the framework that allows them to exist, didn't nearly beat up Trump enough. It's the false-balance problem -- just like with, say, climate change, one side is right and the other is not. If you give both sides equal weight, as the media usually does, you are distorting the issue. This is not often the case (it would not be the case for any generic Republican candidate, from Kasich to Cruz), but in this case it is.

So the problem wasn't that the "deplorable"-line isn't true. The problem was that telling this truth was perhaps not politically expedient.
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:12 PM   #23
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> I voted for Hillary, I disagree with Trump's politics.

This is close, although I think the more true statement would be "I voted for Hillary, I like some of both of their politics, but I think Trump is a shit human being."

Really, I get why he won. I spent long enough in the military (and now am a federal employee) that I've been around a vast majority of republican voters, and many of those are from the states where he cleaned house, for the very reasons that Agayek mentioned. That sentiment is hard to ignore if you're trying to relate to people from that background, and that's what killed her in the end - she could have appealed to them and made it no contest, along with many other no-brainers that she ignored totally. Now we get to live with it, I guess.

We'll be OK though.
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:33 PM   #24
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I voted for Trump, I agree with his politics.
Well, not 100% with everything, but enough for the purpose of the vote.

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"Morons need not apply" maps directly to "reality has a liberal bias"
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:47 PM   #25
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The funny thing is, that wasn't her campaign's primary message. She was speaking to people as people, her infrastructural and jobs plan being a central part of her pivot towards the Midwest. Her speeches on inclusivity were meant to target towards the rural and small-town economic outcasts as much as they were towards the urban minorities.

The fact that you and others feel differently tells me more about the conservative/rural echo chambers that exist in your space of the world than it does about HRC's outreach. Or rather, it tells me her failure to penetrate the echo chambers in your space and in your head, the radio ads playing the "deplorables" statement over and over, playing all her scandals to add a wave of noise fuzzling out her actual message. The conversations between neighbors over deep resentments on the popular perceptions of the non-urban Other by HRC's most vocal backers and supporters.
Man, I live in San Francisco. Every single one of my friends and colleagues are left-leaning to varying degrees, and I myself am more of a classical liberal than anything else. I don't listen to talk radio, I don't generally seek out conservative news. I'm about as far away from a conservative echo chamber as it is physically possible to be.

And still, all that I heard from Hillary's supporters and campaign was "Trump is a terrible person and everyone who supports him is equally terrible". I couldn't go an hour without someone somewhere telling me, regardless of whether it was relevant to the conversation or not, how racist Trump supporters are, how awful Trump is, and how glad they were that the working class of middle-America is irrelevant and dying. I didn't hear a single word about her infrastructure renewal plans until the day before the election, and that was from a conservative source, for crying out loud.

But I mean, shit, it wasn't even constrained to Clinton and the media. Everyone was talking down to those people. Hell, people are doing it in this very thread. They are constantly assuming that their perspective is the only valid one, that they can read the minds of everyone that supports Trump, and can say with perfect conviction that every single one of those people do so for incredibly racist reasons and that there is no possible other explanation.

That is exactly the kind of bullshit I'm talking about. When all you do is write off everyone who disagrees as racist no matter what and refuse to even engage, all that's going to happen is they're gonna go "well fuck it, I just don't give a fuck what you think anymore". And that's exactly what happened with this election.
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:53 PM   #26
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It was quite a hassle figuring out exactly which district I was allowed to vote in but I sent in my vote for Hillary Clinton mostly because she was the closest to policies I agree with. Granted, the state my vote counts in was never gonna come close to red.

Still, I was all ready to feel happy about voting in the first female president and seeing more progress in America.
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Old 11-10-2016, 03:05 PM   #27
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Man, I live in San Francisco. Every single one of my friends and colleagues are left-leaning to varying degrees, and I myself am more of a classical liberal than anything else. I don't listen to talk radio, I don't generally seek out conservative news. I'm about as far away from a conservative echo chamber as it is physically possible to be.

And still, all that I heard from Hillary's supporters and campaign was "Trump is a terrible person and everyone who supports him is equally terrible". I couldn't go an hour without someone somewhere telling me, regardless of whether it was relevant to the conversation or not, how racist Trump supporters are, how awful Trump is, and how glad they were that the working class of middle-America is irrelevant and dying. I didn't hear a single word about her infrastructure renewal plans until the day before the election, and that was from a conservative source, for crying out loud.

But I mean, shit, it wasn't even constrained to Clinton and the media. Everyone was talking down to those people. Hell, people are doing it in this very thread. They are constantly assuming that their perspective is the only valid one, that they can read the minds of everyone that supports Trump, and can say with perfectly conviction that every single one of those people do so for incredibly racist reasons and that there is no possible other explanation.

That is exactly the kind of bullshit I'm talking about. When all you do is write off everyone who disagrees as racist no matter what and refuse to even engage, all that's going to happen is they're gonna go "well fuck it, I just don't give a fuck what you think anymore". And that's exactly what happened with this election.
Why would you? I live in LA and I got one, maybe two, campaign flyers the entire election. Didn't see a single ad on TV.


I mean, saying the entire left holds positions like that...is itself what you're complaining about them doing. It's not like there haven't been tons of articles written throughout the election season talking about Trump's appeal and why people will vote for him, etc etc etc. I know I've read several linked in these very forums.
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Old 11-10-2016, 03:07 PM   #28
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Man, I live in San Francisco. Every single one of my friends and colleagues are left-leaning to varying degrees, and I myself am more of a classical liberal than anything else. I don't listen to talk radio, I don't generally seek out conservative news. I'm about as far away from a conservative echo chamber as it is physically possible to be.
My bad. I made a guess, and I guessed wrong. I also worded poorly, I didn't mean to say that conservative echo chambers were in your head, but that the echo chambers in your head (as evinced by the backlash to the liberal echo chamber) and the echo chambers as controlled by conservative media make similar messes of it.

I hope that takes the wind from under your post here, since you were tacking a point that I never made.

Echo chambers consume information selectively, are generally toxic and create their own backlashes. That is what I was saying. And in this case, they prevented HRC from defining herself as she needed to be defined, despite all her worthy credentials.

I couldn't agree more with the rest of what you have to say ----- I acknowledged that earlier, with a caveat. Trump is a crude, classless empty suit of a man. The media was right to portray his every move to prove it. But they were wrong, and the liberal echo chamber is wrong, to say all his supporters are the same way (when his supporters aren't billionaires who wouldn't understand the difference between New and Old Money as it stands).

Trump may have "won." But no amount of "winnings" will ever wipe the sneers off elites with any class, even looking at his smug grin with the President's authority. That has nothing to do with his supporters, but with him alone and what he stands for ----- which is absolutely nothing.

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Old 11-10-2016, 03:17 PM   #29
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Why would you? I live in LA and I got one, maybe two, campaign flyers the entire election. Didn't see a single ad on TV.


I mean, saying the entire left holds positions like that...is itself what you're complaining about them doing. It's not like there haven't been tons of articles written throughout the election season talking about Trump's appeal and why people will vote for him, etc etc etc. I know I've read several linked in these very forums.
Go back through this thread, and you'll see the exact attitude I'm talking about. You don't even have to go very far. I mean fuck, go up half a dozen posts and you have Sesc saying "Supporting Trump is objectively wrong and only a complete retard, totally divorced from reality, could possibly support him".

I'm not trying to claim that all of the left does that, so apologies if that wasn't clear, but it's both incredibly common and a mainstay of this election, from Clinton to the media to random people on the street.

And that is why Trump won; people are sick and tired of being ignored, derided, and belittled because they happen to think that maybe being able to feed their children is more important than social justice causes that have zero impact on their lives or the lives of anyone they know.

Edit: @Solfege I completely agree with regard to Trump being a useless sack of shit. He's an authoritarian bully with an ego the size of Jupiter and an inferiority complex that dwarfs even that. I don't give a flying fuck what you call Trump, because odds are very good I'd be right there agreeing with you on it.

I'm just pointing out that the media constantly banging on about it and how awful his supporters are because they support him led directly to him being elected.
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:54 PM   #30
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I voted for Hillary because in the end, she's consistently the closest candidate to where I stand on the issues (only by a matter of like... 2% more than Bernie, but still).

I disagree with most of Trump's statements (to say nothing of Trump himself) but in an amusing way I actually disagree with him less than many "normal" Republican candidates. Might just come from living in a decently rural-ish area and seeing why people do things like vote Trump.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:00 PM   #31
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I disagree with most of Trump's statements (to say nothing of Trump himself) but in an amusing way I actually disagree with him less than many "normal" Republican candidates. Might just come from living in a decently rural-ish area and seeing why people do things like vote Trump.
That's probably because Trump is the least traditionally Republican candidate to run red in the last 40 years. He's basically a right-leaning Democrat that, realizing he'd never get the Dem's nomination, went over to the Republicans and threw his hat in the ring.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:10 PM   #32
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I legitimately have no frame of reference for the kind of people who voted Trump. I don't mean I live in an echo chamber - I know people who support him on this side of the border, one of them raised me - it's just...I legitimately do not have a theory of mind for the kind of person who believes he is suitable for political office. I've never had a problem understanding where radical communists or Progressive Conservative voters or antizionist conspiracy theorists or schizophrenics or the developmentally disabled or... well, any group that inherently thinks very differently from me were coming from before this point. People at my school went around hanging confederate flags from the bridge and running around in ski masks harassing women today while shouting things like "Grab 'em by the pussy" until they got into a confrontation with the school's Revolutionary Communists and fights broke out.

So yeah, forgive me for my closed mindedness, but I don't think I'm actually going to come to understand the Alt Right enough to see their viewpoint as one which is respectable enough to consider, or their President-Elect as someone to respect as leader of the free world.
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Old 11-10-2016, 09:56 PM   #33
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> I voted for Hillary, I disagree with her politics.

Too liberal on social issues, too right-wing on economic for me.
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Old 11-10-2016, 09:59 PM   #34
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I voted for Hillary because I agreed with her on the issues and thought she was the most competent candidate, from the primaries to the general.

As I've said before, though, I think we could have done better with Biden. I feel vindicated on that front.

At this point, all I can do is accept what the electorate has voted for, and do my best to make the best of it, both as a citizen and as a civil servant. After all, I took an Oath to the Constitution and to the People, not to elected leaders who will come and go.


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I know people who supported Trump, and I understand why they did it. Some, @Agayek, are racist, disgusting human beings, and you can't deny it. Most are just people who vote for Republicans because they agree with Republican policies, and don't like Democrats or their policies.

We on the left have our share of lunatics and morons as well, but at least none of them are wearing white hoods in their spare time. So don't pretend to me that the candidate who's been praised by David Duke shouldn't be castigated for it.
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Old 11-10-2016, 10:49 PM   #35
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Still, I was all ready to feel happy about voting in the first female president and seeing more progress in America.
This rhetoric is actually a large part of the reason I couldn't decide, from an outside perspective, which candidate I actually preferred. Trump's a moron but Hillary is unlikeable - when she represents something as significant to people as the first woman to ever be president, that's pretty important.

A lot of people have asked why more women didn't support Clinton, as if it's a given that they should - perhaps that's part of it. All I know is I had this terrible premonition that if she was elected she'd become your country's Margaret Thatcher.
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Old 11-10-2016, 10:57 PM   #36
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I suppose it's the nature of the parties to fight to keep the laws and amendments that they managed to put in place, and to reform and destroy what the other party has fought for. However my fear with Trump is that he will take away certain programs that have actually helped millions of Americans even if certain ones don't actually realize how they where helped by the Obama administration and Democratic party. Obama Care being a big one that's why I voted for Hillary Clinton even though I didn't necessarily like her.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:28 PM   #37
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The fact that you and others feel differently tells me more about the conservative/rural echo chambers that exist in your space of the world than it does about HRC's outreach. Or rather, it tells me her failure to penetrate the echo chambers in your space and in your head, the radio ads playing the "deplorables" statement over and over, playing all her scandals to add a wave of noise fuzzling out her actual message.
Clinton and her campaign was hyperfocusing on minorities and side issues that matters little or no to the average blue collar or rural worker. Trump kept on message. -Jobs. Immigration. Tax. Security. Jobs. Healthcare. Community Support. Jobs.

He didn't pivot. He didn't go on long rants about abortion or religion or the moral situation of America or Clean Coal or the Super Free Market. He talked of it enough to pay lip service for some people to find him palatable, and sometimes not even that, and went back to those issues.

Clinton talked about women rights. Women representations. Black rights. Trans rights. Gay rights. Gsy marriage. Environment. Taxes on complicated shit. Some abstract social issues that only people who went to college would've ever heard of. Jobs here. Internet. Millennial. Multiculturalism. Etc.

See that? That's way, way too much stuff. Her speech was always changing and rarely hitting those people. Why should they care? Most of these people don't care about the fact that rural little towns are dying and poor white people are destroying themselves.

Also, rural echo chambers... That's not how rural communities work. At all. Unlike in Universities and cities where there are hundreds of PoVs available, where you can pick some at your leisure and ignore the rest, rural communities don't have safe spaces. They have their reality and their community. Its not an echo chamber, it's literally all they had and have. Relationship problems? The community with help. Personal? That too. Religous? Yep. Economical? If they can. Health? Someone could take you to a doctor if they can't solve it local.

These people don't sit on a chair for days and go browsing internet newspapers of all kind. They don't have a Facebook feed filled with college educated people and teachers. They don't have time to discuss policies all though the night. Trump knew that. He considered that. He fit himself for them. Hillary didn't.

Also @Agayek stop strawmaning the left as a bunch of SJW on a Liberal Arts campus while accusing them of treating Trumpers as racist mysoginists rednecks. Its ridiculous.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:51 PM   #38
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>Voted for Hillary, I disagree with Trump's politics.

She was close with me on some issues, but I may very well have been driven to a third party vote if not for Trump. I was hoping that if she were elected she would move further to the left, but I guess that no longer matters.

At this point I can only hope that someone solid runs in 2020. Maybe Elizabeth Warren.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:58 PM   #39
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Also, rural echo chambers... That's not how rural communities work. At all. Unlike in Universities and cities where there are hundreds of PoVs available, where you can pick some at your leisure and ignore the rest, rural communities don't have safe spaces. They have their reality and their community. Its not an echo chamber, it's literally all they had and have. Relationship problems? The community with help. Personal? That too. Religous? Yep. Economical? If they can. Health? Someone could take you to a doctor if they can't solve it local.
Really good points here, Invictus. In that light, Hillary's fundamental character, her tendency to rule-by-committee, to try to cover everyone and everything, was probably the biggest disadvantage.

But are you telling me that rural communities don't catch reality within a singular frame? That they don't look for information that confirms their values as determined by their everyday experiences and their communities, that they don't prejudge characters they've never met through hearsay, that they don't consume and interpret and reinforce information through talk radio and television and communal word-of-mouth?

I know there aren't safe spaces there. A purported 50% of LGBTQ people are homeless at one point or another in their lives largely because these communities won't support their way of life.

Edit: Alternately you could say that's called "being human," and my use of "echo chambers" thus tautologically meaningless. To which I'd shrug and say that's how I've ever defined an echo chamber. The reinforcement of a particular viewpoint on a singular set of values until a different, unknown quantity jolts you out of that narrow groove.

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Old 11-11-2016, 12:29 AM   #40
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Could have used a 'voted Trump for SCOTUS nominee'.
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