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View Poll Results: How did you vote?
I voted for Trump, I agree with his politics. 8 2.46%
I voted for Hillary, I agree with her politics. 60 18.46%
I voted for Trump, I disagree with Hillary's politics. 14 4.31%
I voted for Hillary, I disagree with Trump's politics. 40 12.31%
I voted independent. 17 5.23%
I did not vote. 27 8.31%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Trump, I agree with his politics. 12 3.69%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Hillary, I agree with her politics. 43 13.23%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Trump, I disagree with Hillary's politics. 24 7.38%
[NON US CITIZEN]I would have voted for Hillary, I disagree with Trump's politics. 80 24.62%
Voters: 325. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:02 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Darth_Revan View Post
I know people who supported Trump, and I understand why they did it. Some, @Agayek, are racist, disgusting human beings, and you can't deny it. Most are just people who vote for Republicans because they agree with Republican policies, and don't like Democrats or their policies.

We on the left have our share of lunatics and morons as well, but at least none of them are wearing white hoods in their spare time. So don't pretend to me that the candidate who's been praised by David Duke shouldn't be castigated for it.
Oh for sure, you'll never hear me say that none of Trump's supporters are racist. In fact, I'd say there's probably a fairly significant minority who are. My issue has always been with the portrayal of all Trump supporters as racist, and in doing so dismissing the very real and legitimate complaints of millions of people.

It's kinda like how I take issue with people calling Democrats regressive nutjobs when BLM tries to create apartheid.

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Also @Agayek stop strawmaning the left as a bunch of SJW on a Liberal Arts campus while accusing them of treating Trumpers as racist mysoginists rednecks. Its ridiculous.
Apologies if I hadn't managed to be as precise with my wording as I'd intended and thought I had been. I'm specifically referring to the people who have been repeatedly and thoroughly attempting to shame everyone who supports Trump. The obvious ones are most of the mainstream media outlets and roughly 80% of Twitter, and I'm not sure what else to call them except "Leftist Intelligentsia". If you have a better term for it, I'd be glad to hear it.
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:29 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Agayek View Post
Oh for sure, you'll never hear me say that none of Trump's supporters are racist. In fact, I'd say there's probably a fairly significant minority who are. My issue has always been with the portrayal of all Trump supporters as racist, and in doing so dismissing the very real and legitimate complaints of millions of people.
I don't believe all of them are racist. But I believe their candidate is, unapologetically so, and that by condoning him, they accepted the tarnish.

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It's kinda like how I take issue with people calling Democrats regressive nutjobs when BLM tries to create apartheid.
I'm honestly not sure what this sentence means, but I think they'd say they already live in an apartheid and that's the problem.
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:40 AM   #43
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I'm honestly not sure what this sentence means, but I think they'd say they already live in an apartheid and that's the problem.
It means a few months back there was a decently sized collection of BLM activists campaigning at their universities to force the schools to provide them alternative facilities away from the "white gaze". At best, it was an attempt to repeal Brown v Board of Education, and at its worst, it was an attempt to create apartheid. Neither of which is acceptable.

If you want to see the articles I saw about it, send me a PM and I'll go see if I can dig something up again.
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:41 AM   #44
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I threw my vote away on an independent, and if I had to I'd do it again. I posted my reasoning in the other thread before the election, and it hasn't changed.
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Given that Election Day is two weeks from today, and that I posted here fairly regularly during the primaries, I thought I'd mention where I ended up as this cycle came to a close:
  • Donald Trump remains abhorrant to me. I will not vote for him, nor for any political candidate that endorses him. I would say that I look forward to his loss in order to forget about him, but he is going to be moaning about how this election was "stolen" from him until the day he dies.
  • That said, Hillary Clinton is no more appealing to me. I believe her to be one of the most corrupt politicians in the nation, and she has just as many (if different) character flaws as Trump.
  • When I dislike the normal libertarian positions, Gary Johnson has normal libertarian positions. When I like the normal libertarian positions, he either rejects them or has funhouse mirror versions of them. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot vote for him either.
  • Jill Stein... no.
Thus I will be voting for Evan McMullin, or, as he's know outside of Utah, "generic Republican." I think he has a resume that would be impressive if he were running for Congress; less so as he's for president. But I like most of his positions, and I can tolerate his positions I dislike. Most importantly, he seems a man of principle and character, both of which the two major party candidates lack.

If you want to see my vote, it will be one of the probably two hundred McMullin votes cast in Cook County.

As an aside, I've been reading a lot of the old Stoics. The idea that you need to mentally prepare yourself for the worst possible scenario and accept that you can't control anything other than yourself has been calming in a year that has seen the rise of Donald Trump, a likely Clinton presidency, and the Cubs going to the World Series.
Edit: Also, I congratulated several Trump voters I know on "their guy" winning, the same way that I gritted my teeth and congratulated Cubs fans on their World Series win. Without exception, they all said that Trump wasn't their guy, and they just couldn't vote for Hillary. I think people, especially those that rush to judge all Trump fans as racists and misogynists, discount the anti-Hillary factor too much.

Salena Zito has also been writing what in retrospect is pure gold about Trump support; CNN just hired her because of it. Her most recent column is worth reading.

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Old 11-11-2016, 01:27 AM   #45
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I think Anna Navarro summed up the end of this election nicely in this tweet:

"GOP nominated the only damn candidate who could lose to Hillary Clinton. Democrats nominated the only damn candidate who could lose to Trump"

I voted for Hillary despite her antics during the primaries, despite the numerous policies she's supported in the past that I'm against, despite her mishandling of scandals, and despite her mockery towards half her base. I couldn't stomach a Trump presidency. Now it seems like I'll have to because of dumbass independent voters, many of whom I personally believe would have gone to Bernie if he were in the election. I voted for her despite not wanting her to have the honor of going down in history as the first woman President.

I voted for her because she wouldn't have destroyed the environment. She would have placed someone on the bench that I would have approved of. She would have kept the march of progress going. Now, progress is stalled, if not marching backwards.

None of the candidates were good this election, and the third party candidates were just as bad. Don't give me this shit about voting for Johnson because you were voting with your conscience. He's a fucking retard. He has no place in the Oval Office, just like Trump shouldn't. Of all of them, Clinton was unfortunately the most intelligent and most suitable for the job.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:20 AM   #46
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Your head could not possibly be further up your ass.
It would, of course, help to read the entire sentence and try to understand it. I posted the voting demographics. Here is the DLP survey. I'll leave it you to find find the educational makeup of the USA.

If you trust me: DLP is not representative. We are skewed towards higher education, just like we are skewed towards younger ages. And like I pointed out recently: Both create the truth behind the quip of reality's liberal bias, because they dominate the public sphere.
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Old 11-11-2016, 06:11 AM   #47
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I would have voted for pretty much any Democrat over any Republican given their party platforms. I believe the Dems have more plausible plans on most of the economic issues, and given that several longstanding GOP social viewpoints are anathema to me... Yeah. The addition of Clinton and Trump to the mix did not change it overly much - but then again I live in a country with positively tepid politicians and the whole person-driven narrative, to the extent that the US does it, never made much sense to me. Culture gap, I assume.

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I don't believe all of them are racist. But I believe their candidate is, unapologetically so, and that by condoning him, they accepted the tarnish.
Be this as it may, this is the attitude Democrats will have to outwardly get rid of before the 2020 season starts up, if not before the 2018 midterms start getting into full swing. The GOP has the more generally faithful voters - they can do the whole 'break down the enemy coalition' thing and win in the war of attrition. (At least in the current alignment.) The Dems need to build a winning coalition, which means winning back at least some of those 'tarnished' voters, given the electoral importance of those voters.
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Old 11-11-2016, 07:10 AM   #48
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I voted for Anderson because of his policies. Specially,
  • Pro Abortion
  • He supports Same Sex Marriage
  • Open immigration, but strictly enforced
  • Free trade
  • Opposing the income tax
Since Clinton is a corrupt sack of shit that supports a stronger government she wasn't getting my vote. I disagree with Trump's views on immigration and the environment, but if he can actually get term limits on congressional offices I will be very happy. Mostly I didn't vote for Trump because he is an inexperienced blowhard.

There was no way I was voting for Sanders. Clinton was closer to getting my support than him. So if people would stop raging about third party voters being responsible for Trump's election I would really fucking appreciate it.
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:28 AM   #49
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I voted for Anderson because of his policies.
I have no idea who that is, which pretty much sums up how wasted your vote was.
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:39 AM   #50
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I
There was no way I was voting for Sanders. Clinton was closer to getting my support than him. So if people would stop raging about third party voters being responsible for Trump's election I would really fucking appreciate it.
*Looks at how the vote in the swing states went*
Yeah sure. Reality dissgrees with them and their voters made a conscious effort to waster their votes and enable Trump, but hey, vote purity right? If you can't take the heat, don't do it in the first place.
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:59 AM   #51
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Trump's a moron but Hillary is unlikeable - when she represents something as significant to people as the first woman to ever be president, that's pretty important.
I'm not saying I voted for her to be the first female president, it was just an aside like with Obama. I agreed with his policies and I voted for him too just like with Clinton.

And a candidates likeability was never an issue for me. I only care if they do the job and between Trump and Clinton, it was beyond obvious.

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I have no idea who that is, which pretty much sums up how wasted your vote was.
I tried looking it up and I can't even find it. Harambe legit probably got more votes.
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Old 11-11-2016, 09:15 AM   #52
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*Looks at how the vote in the swing states went*
Yeah sure. Reality dissgrees with them and their voters made a conscious effort to waster their votes and enable Trump, but hey, vote purity right? If you can't take the heat, don't do it in the first place.
You're assuming that third party voters would have otherwise voted for hillary, which is questionable. Looking at all the state totals, if you took third parties out of the equation and let those voters pick again, Hillary very well could have lost Minnesota, Colorado, Nevada, etc. The swing state analysis is faulty, because it ignores just how close non swing states were. Clinton's margin in Minnesota was 1.4%, and Gary Johnson, a candidate that was maybe pulling more from Trump than Clinton (but there's no data on this that I can tell) got 4%. Pulling third parties from the race would have made other state elections competitive, that were previously deemed safe by pollsters and campaigners. And again, it also makes the absolutely baseless assumption that Clinton lost more voters than Trump did.

The only reasonable scapegoats democrats should have for this election is their own party, the campaign, and the candidate. This was a failure by the candidate for being so weak, a failure by the party elites for choosing the most unelectable candidate in recent history, and a failure by the campaign for having a strategy so stupid that Wisconsin voted red for the first time in nearly 3 decades.

Blaming third party voters is just whining: it's unproductive, because this is all just speculation, and ineffective, because there were major issues with the actual candidate that contributed more to her loss.

EDIT: Here's a WaPo article detailing why blaming third parties is stupid.

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Old 11-11-2016, 09:58 AM   #53
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You're assuming that third party voters would have otherwise voted for hillary, which is questionable. Looking at all the state totals, if you took third parties out of the equation and let those voters pick again, Hillary very well could have lost Minnesota, Colorado, Nevada, etc. The swing state analysis is faulty, because it ignores just how close non swing states were. Clinton's margin in Minnesota was 1.4%, and Gary Johnson, a candidate that was maybe pulling more from Trump than Clinton (but there's no data on this that I can tell) got 4%. Pulling third parties from the race would have made other state elections competitive, that were previously deemed safe by pollsters and campaigners. And again, it also makes the absolutely baseless assumption that Clinton lost more voters than Trump did.

The only reasonable scapegoats democrats should have for this election is their own party, the campaign, and the candidate. This was a failure by the candidate for being so weak, a failure by the party elites for choosing the most unelectable candidate in recent history, and a failure by the campaign for having a strategy so stupid that Wisconsin voted red for the first time in nearly 3 decades.

Blaming third party voters is just whining: it's unproductive, because this is all just speculation, and ineffective, because there were major issues with the actual candidate that contributed more to her loss.

EDIT: Here's a WaPo article detailing why blaming third parties is stupid.
Hah. No. Youre not beginning this again. Last time you ran away from debating Revan after poretending thicknesses. You're not dragging. Instead of cherry picking go answer the posts on the politics thread about this subject. Don't pretend you have a pont by quoting me and ignoring a ton of posts debating this.

Also. Lol. Clinton got the majority in the primary. Sanders tried to pull a Trump and couldn't. Live with it.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:20 AM   #54
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Hah. No. Youre not beginning this again. Last time you ran away from debating Revan after poretending thicknesses. You're not dragging. Instead of cherry picking go answer the posts on the politics thread about this subject. Don't pretend you have a pont by quoting me and ignoring a ton of posts debating this.

Also. Lol. Clinton got the majority in the primary. Sanders tried to pull a Trump and couldn't. Live with it.
While that one sided discussion certainly played a part in my decision to swear off politics during the election, it wasn't the only thing, or even the only forum I post on that I swore off. Revan was just indicative of a common problem: lots of stubborn people unable to deal with facts.

Anyways, the facts bear my position out again: third parties only spoiled this election if you distort the data in ways that no polling supports, and aren't even reasonable assumptions to make in the absence of data. You have to do things like assume that hillary was actually losing most of the votes from third parties, rather than trump, or as CNN did, that half of the Johnson voters, and all of the Stein voters decide to vote Hillary, while the remaining half of Johnson voters vote libertarian. For a more reasonable approach, look at the polling in the WaPo article, which shows Trump actually had a slight advantage if third parties are removed in swing states.

Hillary tried to win an election and couldn't. Live with it, instead of irrationally blaming unrelated things.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:58 AM   #55
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Old 11-11-2016, 11:03 AM   #56
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Old 11-11-2016, 11:12 AM   #57
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I voted third party. A couple things.
Trump received less votes then Ronmey. Even in some of the states he flips. There was no real racists surge of voting. He won the important states, based on polling data because of lower vote turnout in the metropolitan areas, slightly higher turnout in rural areas, and the white working class vote moving sharply from Obama to Trump. These are votes who mostly voted Obama. Those are votes who went to the polls for Obama but not Clinton.

I'll end with one anecdote. Trump's last add I saw was focused on blaming Clinton and Obama and the financial system for a rigged system. All I saw from the press about it was it was anti-semantic. Nothing about refuting the claims in it. "It's the economy stupid." And people without good jobs or job prospects, especially for their children could care less about identity politics.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:33 PM   #58
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*Looks at how the vote in the swing states went*
Yeah sure. Reality dissgrees with them and their voters made a conscious effort to waster their votes and enable Trump, but hey, vote purity right? If you can't take the heat, don't do it in the first place.
If you somehow forced third party voters to select between Trump and Clinton/Sanders it is insane to believe the majority would vote against Trump. The largest group of them, the libertarians, are die-hard laissez-faire capitalists, they wouldn't have selected a socialist like Sanders if he got the democratic nomination. Fuck, just look at the names of the people you are arguing with here, atlas_hugged, you really hope to pull those voters to the democratic party?

If you somehow tied me down and forced me to choose between the two it would have been Trump. Because I choose the best candidate on the ballet, not the least shitty of two options, my voter purity helped your candidate get Minnesota.

Look, I was pretty butt-hurt too when Obama brought his economic stimulus plans and Obamacare to the White House eight years ago. Go out, get wasted, and get to work the next day. Quit bitching and moaning at the small fries, it helps no one. Tell your buddies to quit blocking traffic while you are at it. Especially in states that voted for Clinton.
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Old 11-11-2016, 07:28 PM   #59
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If you somehow forced third party voters to select between Trump and Clinton/Sanders it is insane to believe the majority would vote against Trump. The largest group of them, the libertarians, are die-hard laissez-faire capitalists, they wouldn't have selected a socialist like Sanders if he got the democratic nomination. Fuck, just look at the names of the people you are arguing with here, atlas_hugged, you really hope to pull those voters to the democratic party?

If you somehow tied me down and forced me to choose between the two it would have been Trump. Because I choose the best candidate on the ballet, not the least shitty of two options, my voter purity helped your candidate get Minnesota.

Look, I was pretty butt-hurt too when Obama brought his economic stimulus plans and Obamacare to the White House eight years ago. Go out, get wasted, and get to work the next day. Quit bitching and moaning at the small fries, it helps no one. Tell your buddies to quit blocking traffic while you are at it. Especially in states that voted for Clinton.
Have to agree here. Johnson's main pull was from Republican-aligned voters who couldn't stomach voting for Trump but didn't hate him enough to cross party lines. Odds are that without him in the race most of them would've held their nose and voted Trump.
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Old 11-12-2016, 10:33 AM   #60
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Look, I was pretty butt-hurt too when Obama brought his economic stimulus plans and Obamacare to the White House eight years ago.
...if you truly believe economic stimulus was bad policy in '09, you have no understanding of macroeconomics.
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