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Antifa vs Neo-Nazis

Discussion in 'Politics' started by point09micron, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Longsword

    Longsword Groundskeeper

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    Who will be doing this ?
     
  2. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    It's already happening, albeit it's early stages. Look what's happening at the US-Mexico border.
     
  3. Longsword

    Longsword Groundskeeper

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    Then a significant part of the world is already ruled by Nazis.
     
  4. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    That's actually a really good question, though not one I think anyone is capable of answering accurately without the benefit of hindsight and historical context.

    My perspective is no, as our social norms are, so far, standing up to the assault. The core value proposition of Western culture is broadly unchanged, despite the best efforts of the far right, and the significant departures from such remain fringe elements of society.

    At the same time though, that core value proposition is currently under attack, often through entirely new avenues created by the internet. And it would not shock me to see that core value proposition abandoned within my lifetime, at which point we will have problems.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  5. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Pretty much this. We're not at the point where rule of law and peaceful political discourse have proven incapable of handling the challenges they face. Neo-Nazis are bad and need to be stopped, but I don't think we need to completely abandon the basic principles of Modern Western Liberal Democracy to do that.

    Perhaps there will come a point when rule of law fails and the only way to stop Neo-Nazis is blood in the streets, but I'm not exactly eager to see societies devolve into anarchy and civil war unless everything's really gone to hell. Right now, I'm of the opinion that the collapse of Western Civilization and devolution into violent lawless anarchy would cause a lot more damage than a fringe group of Neo-Nazi lunatics.

    I'm not comfortable with the idea that groups of people should be declared outside the protection of the law and free to be attacked by anyone who wants to go after them, regardless of how repugnant their beliefs are. If they break the law because of those beliefs, by all means take them to court and throw the book at them. But this isn't the middle ages we shouldn't be putting out decrees of outlawry against ... well, anyone.

    Uncontrolled mob violence is almost always a solution that's worse than problem it's trying to solve. It has a nasty habit of spiralling into pure violent anarchy, which just makes everything worse. Not to mention it's how groups like the Nazis get into power by promising everyone peace, stability, and a return to normalcy (at the low cost of repression and a little genocide. Or a lot).
     
  6. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    The law exists for a reason.

    Under Andrela’s logic, it’s perfectly acceptable to attack groups that are one finds repugnant and/or advocate the removal of population groups. So good job justifying mass shootings against immigrants/religious groups or things like bombing planned parenthood.
     
  7. Silirt

    Silirt Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    I'd be more likely to hinge my case on the Japanese interment camps.
    Well, yeah, that's what happened.
    Milk is racist: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/milk-white-supremacy-racism_n_5bffad35e4b0864f4f6a3e28
    Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are racist: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-p...58PqvrNUN6a82NM2RtCs5xe0TOi6f8FOvYQZ9i2YD4ANI
    You don't have to be racist to be racist: https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/05/23/magazine-headline-you-dont-have-to-be-racist-to-be-racist/
    Basically, the term racist is entirely exhausted. There is literally nothing that isn't racist, and once something is labeled racist, it can't be unlabeled because whatever tries to say something isn't racist is racist. When every journalist and sociologist in the world was going on at length about how Trump is a racist, they were absolutely bamboozled by the ambivalent, nonplussed reaction they got. The 'press here to generate immediate moral outrage' button was so completely broken, it could be found crying in the corner of a long since cold shower.
    Somewhere around then, they decided to move on to 'nazi'.
     
  8. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    Isn't a big part of this discussion who you personally think violence is justified against? There's hardly anyone on the planet that truly believes in undiluted pacifism, and if they say they do, they've either never been put in the position to test it or they've let someone die to defend their dead horse on a pedestal. Which means the vast majority of people think it's justified to be violent toward someone for some reason, regardless of the rationality or consistency of that reason.

    I personally think it's telling that white supremacists can be open, in public, like that and still have a defendable position. You say, "It's not that white supremacy/fascism/Nazism is good—it's that Antifa's violence and thuggery isn't acceptable." But you fail to understand what you've actually said, which is: "You white supremacists can continue to demonstrate in large numbers, shouting racist and genocidal-esque bullshit, and the real people the police will pepper spray and beat up are your opponents. However unintentionally, we will do your work for you."

    Unfortunately, rhetoric does matter, and to be so ignorant of it is naive, in my opinion. I understand where the argument comes from—that we can't allow rioting or assault—but too many people spouting this argument fail to understand that you are allowing, however accidentally, white supremacists and neo-Nazis to win. Who do the police lock up and subdue? Mostly Antifa, not any of the radical right shitheads that started the entire encounter to begin with. Antifa would not show up if fascists didn't openly present themselves in the streets. Antifa is inherently reactive.

    I'd also like to posit this: to be constantly the target of white supremacist/racist/Nazi rhetoric and violence is a kind of stress and situational awareness that never goes away. Eventually, those people victimized will demand justice by any means necessary, and to ignore that is outrageous.

    It's nice to say that you don't agree with Nazis, and in most cases I truly believe people don't, but to think your rhetoric means nothing is naive to the point of willful ignorance.

    I'm not particularly bothered by Antifa because I'm confident they wouldn't be around if we didn't let Richard Spencer and his ilk shout Nazi bullshit in the street.

    (And as an aside, I don't think that means we shouldn't evaluate every incident, as use of force situations by anyone are incredibly nuanced. Anyone can take advantage of a cause; I don't disagree with that. But collectively we come down against Antifa, and even if you don't mean for it come across that way, it's implicitly saying you agree more with neo-Nazis than Antifa.)

    Obviously it then comes around to what's allowable to do in the public space, and the 1st Amendment. That's a tricky question. I'm also really fucking wary of barring anyone 1A rights. It's easily a slippery slope. But I honestly think a lot of what neo-Nazis do in public spaces doesn't fall under 1A rights, that it's clear it's inflammatory, meant to incite violence (by the perpetrators' own admission), and threatening. And considering there are 17 dead black trans women this year, dead immigrants (or mistaken immigrants because racism) along border towns, an alarming amount of Hispanic people in camps (whether the purpose is malicious right now or not doesn't eliminate the potential), and a trail of murdered black people (on racist grounds) so long historians are still trying to get an accurate number, I'd say the evidence supports my claim.

    Come back to me about Antifa when we've done something about Richard Spencer.
     
  9. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign ~ Prestige ~

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    I entirely agree. Total pacifism is silly. If someone swings at you, you are fully justified in swinging back. You are not justified in beating the shit out of them. Proportional response. Which brings me to the next point...

    If neonazis show up and shout "blood and soil", then by all means show up and shout them down. But if you escalate to violence first, you are also "doing their work for them"--look at those thugs, we are just marching and this guy attacked me first. You can finish a fight, but there's no benefit in starting one in this situation.

    You say that as if neonazi rhetoric is really convincing people. I doubt someone who isn't a neonazi looks at Charlottesville and thinks "hmm, these guys look fun, I wonder if they have pamphlets." Neonazis don't recruit people that way. People marching in those demonstrations are already bought into the bs. Protest the marches, but know that if you want people to not be susceptible to being recruited by Nazis, this work begins much earlier and in much different circumstances.

    The most publicized cases of antifa assaulting people weren't attacks on Nazis. They bravely toss milkshakes (which is at the very fucking least irritating) at people they disagree with politically, the bike lock professor smacked a guy who was literally sitting in the street trying to keep peace. Only a scumbag sees that and thinks "yep, I'm with the Antifa guy on this one".

    There's a reason why we have the state enforce the law. Mob justice is bad.

    Who here said nazi rhetoric means nothing?

    Nice case of "if you're not with us, you're against us" you have here, be a shame if someone pointed out that there aren't two sides to every situation, sometimes there are two sides, sometimes there's only one, and sometimes there are more than two. Saying that political vioence is bad =/= I agree with the people Antifa are attacking.

    Who's stopping you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  10. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Scott pretty well covered everything I would say. Mob violence is never a good solution. Political violence is pretty much always bad unless society has completely broken down. Opposing Nazis doesn't require endorsing violence by unaccountable vigilantes.
     
  11. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    I'm not saying Antifa has the most amazing optics, or that there aren't isolated incidents, which I pointed out above. Absolutely people take advantage of being under a banner and beat someone up when they have little to nothing to do with Antifa as an organization (which it actually isn't much of one, it's usually locals banning together to respond to something planned like Charlottesville). I also made it clear that every specific situation should be evaluated for merit, regardless of political leaning. I don't blanket support Antifa no matter what they do. Not to mention how murky it can be to actually determine where the first punch came from. Considering right wing shitstains are provoking people by simply being there, the tension isn't exactly hard to tip over the edge, even from a misread signal. To say Antifa always does the provoking is very disingenuous.

    You're right, it's not about recruitment. If that seemed to be implied, I didn't mean it to be. What I was getting at is that it further fuels the people that do believe it; it shows that there's more and more they can get away with without consequence. It's galvanizing to its base, as evidenced by the people that actually show up to these things. I'd love to have a debate about why people get sucked into this kind of thing, and there's some really interesting "I used to be a white supremacist" literature out there, but that's not really what I' talking about here. We're talking about the people that already drank the Kool Aid.

    Do you know any further details about the Portland incident? Because Andy Ngo wasn't just some journalist passing by, or even a conservative journalist reporting on the incident. Not a few days before, he and a couple others doxxed a journalist so the Proud Boys could get her address. Here's the NYT overview, here's a Rolling Stone article about Ngo himself, and the obvious fact that there was no cement in the milkshake. He has a history of purposefully provoking Antifa so that they respond and he can get it on video. From what I understand of the bike lock incident, that was uncalled for and I don't think the police should've just let him off (which they didn't).

    There can be some nuance here, and I never claimed their couldn't. I particularly like how Vox handled the Ngo milkshake incident.

    I didn't say it wasn't. What I'm pointing out is that you will inevitably get mob justice if the far right keeps getting largely ignored, let off with warnings, and loudly and proudly proclaiming their hatred in the city streets. And to be very clear, I'm not proposing to infringe on the 1st Amendment. I don't particularly have a solution to the issue. I'm trying to point out the reality that, even if it's the best we can do, it's obviously not enough. I notice you didn't say anything to my last point, which I thought the most important:

    I will also happily agree that a lot of Antifa members have no interest in preserving democracy, and many of them are anarchists (read: morons) or communists. I don't agree with either of those ideologies in any way, shape, or form. Doesn't mean I think Antifa is as bad as the neo-Nazis.

    1) I didn't say that it actually was "if you're not with us, you're against us", I'm saying it looks that way, and most people read it that way. Which is why I was emphasizing rhetoric. And practically speaking, it doesn't matter if your stance is against political violence because that concession opens up the oft repeated: "As long as we don't directly incite the violence, most of the political establishment will spend their time and effort decrying our opponents." It's a way to spin the narrative; again why I'm emphasizing rhetoric. The more people can get away with it, the more their base is galvanized to keep doing it publicly. You don't have to personally believe it or be complicit for the message to get across unintentionally, which is what's happening.

    2) What would it take, then? And this isn't meant to be accusatory at all, I'm genuinely asking. If you're against political violence, is that universally? I imagine not because I doubt many people are saying that the Jews defending the Warsaw ghetto from the SS are as bad as the Nazis, but if not—what does it take? Where's your line? What would be bad enough for Antifa or anyone else to brawl in the streets? Do we have to wait until the white supremacists are bold enough to kick down doors? Do we have to wait until another trans woman is murdered? Do we wait until someone in office decides the detainment facilities at the border can be "better used"?

    Do we truly want to wait until we've unequivocally put neo-Nazis and white supremacists in power? I'm not saying we're there, far enough from it, but to completely ignore the parallels (I'm not claiming that every conservative or Republican or centrist is a Nazi at all, or that we've got a one-to-one, to preempt that comment), and the same kind of rhetoric becoming normal and "just as bad" is a dangerous tightrope to walk.
     
  12. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    I don't think anyone's argued that antifa is as bad as the Neonazis. Merely that "not as bad as neonazis" is a really low bar to set, and still leaves plenty of room for them to not be a force for good.

    Breakdown of civil society and rule of law.

    It sucks that murders and assaults happen, but that's what we have police and courts for. Yes, those institutions are imperfect, but they're vastly superior to mob justice and mass violence. For someone who claims to not like Anarchists, you sure do seem to be in favor of large-scale anarchic violence.
     
  13. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    You're still not quite getting what I'm saying. "It sucks that murders and assaults happen" is true in a vacuum, but when it's prevalent against minorities of whatever sort, to say that is to dismiss what's causing those to happen at higher and higher rates. For you, it's "this fucking sucks, but we can't have any violence in the streets", but the people who may actually be murdered, do you see why they'd band together and not mind preemptively punching a Nazi?

    And it's rich to call the handful of recent incidents "large scale anarchic violence". Lol. That's not even close to anarchy, first off. And second, I'm not saying we should let people get away with assault and battery. I'm trying to say it's telling who gets news coverage when this shit happens, how it almost always gets rhetorically spun, and the real world harm it does to people at higher and higher rates. I'm not saying it's a good thing that Antifa has beaten the shit out of someone, or that clearing the not-a-Nazi bar means you're an inherently good organization. I'm saying there's a lot allowed to slide, and we sure are really fucking critical of Antifa but white supremacists have become so vocal and normal that it's whatever. Boston Straight Pride turned into this recently, and one protester got a police bike to the face for it. The very fact we're primarily arguing over Antifa proves my point.

    "What did Antifa do this time?" we wonder, as the Nazis give a bow and exit stage left.

    Not to mention you're sending more and more people farther and farther left by, on the surface, ignoring how fucking insane the far right is. You've shot yourself in the foot twice.

    We've shifted the Overton window precariously right, and it's only been getting farther.

    And if your line is the breakdown of civil society and law, don't you just mean when it's finally bad enough to affect you?
     
  14. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    I think we're primarily discussing Antifa because there's no discussion to be had about Nazis beyond "everyone here still agrees they're horrible, right?"
     
  15. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    That's great, but that attitude isn't showing its face beyond this forum thread. Not to mention it's that very blase attitude that got us here. Same principle as my centrist father saying, "Well we already knew that Trump wasn't a great guy, but the Democrats don't seem to have any solutions, do they. It's not my fault I still voted Trump, the other side just wasn't good enough." Do you see what I'm getting at?

    And I noticed you didn't acknowledge any other point I made, which again—I'd consider those the most important ones.

    Edit: Quick question, when exactly have Antifa ever committed mass violence? Literally never. Not a single murder has ever been reported to be committed by an Antifa member for political reasons. I don't think I have to point out the mass shooting death toll by far right fucks.
     
  16. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    Here's the thing: "No violence in the streets" includes people being murdered.

    Like, "Antifa are violent thugs that need to stop being violent" does not at all preclude "Nazis are violent psychopaths and need to stop being violent". The rule of law is explicitly all about stopping extrajudicial violence and ensuring the state retains its monopoly on force. That includes everything from the anarcho-communist beating people with bike locks, to the skinhead hanging a black dude, to the guy who walked in on his wife cheating on him and killed them both.

    "No violence in the streets" does not suddenly mean "It's only bad when Antifa does it", and the equivalence you've established is as baffling as it is wrong.
     
  17. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign ~ Prestige ~

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    To be clear, I'm abridging your post in quotes because I don't want to quote the wall of text.

    This sounds like (and I don't think you meant it that way, but it is a convenient way to defend antifa while skirting the thuggery they engage in): antifa are fighting nazis so they're good, but also it's not really a cohesive organization so isolated incidents are just isolated incidents, they don't blemish antifa as a whole. Basically, antifa's bad apples are excused. Well excuse me, but the bad apples is precisely the problem. How many of the bad apples would have done what they did without the safety of a mask and the mob of masked people around them to disappear into? Something something give a man a mask and he'll tell you the truth.

    And has been pointed out numerous times by Agayek and now by Chengar, "better than nazis" is a low, low, low bar.

    Btw, this is golden:

    "She shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt, she was asking for it", or is that too on the nose?

    That's true, and it is a problem. Fortunately, there is a hard barrier. They can shout whatever they want, but as soon as they're galvanized into attacking people, they cross the line of the law, and the justice system steps in (this isn't a thread about the brokenness of that system, pointing out imperfections in justice is not needed, we all know they exist).

    I can call Andy Ngo a shitstain for doxxing people and in the same breath call antifa shitstains for attacking him. What, was he standing in the street in a particularly threatening way? If he was getting in someone's face then shove the fucker and I'll help them do it, but if you escalate, that's on you.

    Okay, well, if some dumb cunt thinks I'm a Nazi because I said Antifa did a bad thing then that's neither my problem, nor my responsibility. The dumb cunt can think whatever it wants about me as long as it doesn't attempt to mess with my life. Dumb cunts will be dumb cunts.

    My line is exactly where common sense and democratic lawful societies draw it. Say what you want, but if you attack people, there's punishment.

    All of that is already illegal regardless of whether you're a nazi or not.

    I haven't followed the news about those in detail and I don't exactly understand what you mean by "better used". Is it meant to imply that Nazis would like to use those facilities to reenact the Holocaust?

    I think a paraphrase from Aaron Sorkin is appropriate here: America is in no more danger of falling under the rule of Nazism than it is the rules of Fight Club.
     
  18. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    Didn't mean to establish that equivalence, and if it read that, that is my fault. I'm most certainly not saying you meant that either. What is still being ignored after saying it in every post so far, is that people act on what they perceive to be true. Driving more people farther left (therefore worsening the Antifa problem) and empowering white supremacists is what this attitude is doing. You're literally making your problem worse by not acknowledging it.

    You're right, didn't mean it that way. Also not saying it shouldn't damage their rep (or that their rep was good begin with), but just factually speaking they're not an organization with, like, an application or anything.

    To pretend that wearing clothes on your body and minding your own business is in any way similar to shouting racist and purposefully provocative hate speech is a little bit of a yikes.

    This. This is what I mean. This is the attitude that lets extremism of any flavor grow. Plenty of large movements have been full of "dumb cunts". I guess trying to prevent things is any way at all is just for dumb cunts.

    Great. Tell that to dead people. Who are dead, and probably don't give a fuck about what is or isn't illegal. If you're a minority, is it not understandable to want to get the jump on this? Maybe not get murdered? From the broad side, I'm not disagreeing with you, but until we have any real reform in the CJ system, or do a better job at socially (not even with the gov) policing far right crazies, you will inevitably have people that decide punching a fucking Nazi is no small problem if it means they stay tf away from their city and don't end up murdering anyone. (And this is honestly regardless of efficacy. If there's even a shot, people are doing it.)

    What everyone has still failed to say anything about is that, regardless of what you think should happen, this is literally what people are doing. I'm trying to point out the holes in your argument, and was hoping you'd get a little more practical in the application of your stance. Your own rhetoric is what's killing your argument.
     
  19. SmileOfTheKill

    SmileOfTheKill Magical Amber

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    Considering most right wing meet-ups are primarily cause to shout blood and soil along with other racist chants, I don't blame people for getting provoked into it. If I see a straight pride parade, I know exactly what I am expecting.

    Our President is a racist who is also a senile idiot who loves to call cities with black mayors rodent infested messes. Fine people on both sides when Charlottesville happened. We are under the rule of white power as of right now. It's not a full Nazi state but I know the Neo-Nazis love him.
     
  20. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    Except that the only people who take it that way are the people who have already reached that conclusion regardless. When you strip out all the flowery language and get down to brass tacks, your whole premise here is that someone saying "violence is bad" is implicitly saying "violence is only bad when Antifa does it", which is in turn implicitly saying "right-wing violence is a-okay", and this double standard thereby encourages left-wing violence.

    This is the same logic that says it's the rise of progressive call-out culture that's responsible for the recent rise of the extreme right. And it's just as true there as it is here.
     
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