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Antifa vs Neo-Nazis

Discussion in 'Politics' started by point09micron, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    It really fucking shouldn't. I hope that's not what you think of moderates. I don't even think that of moderates. That they're all susceptible to siding with white supremacists because the even slightly left people have annoyed them, despite how morally bankrupt that is. Wow.
     
  2. kelkorkesis

    kelkorkesis Second Year

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    Why is this a problem? So, you wrote a fiction that contains a fictional black woman character that happens to be racists. What is wrong here? Why should you apologize?

    Frustration doesn't justify violence. You cannot hit people just because you are in bad mood and they hold stupid political views.

    Also this.
    It feels like American left likes to label everything they disagree with Nazi so readily the word lost its meaning.
     
  3. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Have you studied why people turn to white supremacy?

    Very rarely is it because they legitimately hold such beliefs from the beginning. It's because they feel disenfranchised. They feel unheard. They are treated as "idiots" and so turn to people who make them feel welcome and like they matter.
     
  4. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    This is one issue. I've got a couple more traditionally conservative views, and have no problem entertaining the other side of the argument if it isn't alt-right nonsense. And interestingly enough, I wouldn't protest with Antifa, nor did I disagree with your general stance on political violence. Someone my original point is still lost.
     
  5. SmileOfTheKill

    SmileOfTheKill Magical Amber

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    What are you even talking about? It's like everyone forgot what he originally said on the 12th, like the day of the murder.

    I like C-Span. So he dropped this both sides garbage and it got condemnation by a ton of people, on both sides. I know John McCain had something to say about it. It took him three god damn days before he went to do the laziest damage control possible that apparently works. Look at this.

    And then he says this. Sure, he technically said Nazis are bad but that is sandwiched between two different racist whistles. In context it's terrible so don't ask me to read the transcript, I did.

    Oh no we accidentally called the racist white power senile old person a nazi. Now his supporters don't care...

    The real reason people defend him is because they are too stupid or racist. You could pretend way back when he would be the perfect outsider to fix Washington (still stupid but at least there was some plasiable reason to think it.) but anyone defending him now has no excuses.
     
  6. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    That bolded part is just a no. They usually grew up in it or around it. And it's mostly white people. People who would've never acted on any of it, or maybe even acknowledged implicit bias existed, but who've been angered over petty things because some people want to live without constant fear of attack, murder, medical abuse, etc.

    I also understand that and will engage with people if they're open to engagement, but it's usually an excuse. People treated them like "idiots" not because they were never willing to discuss it, but because they were never open to discussion in the first place.
    --- Post automerged ---
    ...I don't have words. Frustration? Excuse me? Medical abuse, homicide, mass shootings, beatings, and institutionalized bigotry is just some minor frustration? You think that's why people are getting punched in the street?

    Honestly, this thread should just be an example. We should just immortalize it in it's dumpsterfire glory for Missing The Point.
     
  7. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    The bolded part is a yes.

    Most interviews/studies point to a lack of empathy, feeling of belonging, etc. The things you mention are definitely a factor, but the issues of feeling alone or separated and taken advantage of are huge as well.

    https://www.rti.org/impact/addicted-hate-understanding-motives-former-white-supremacists
    https://www.livescience.com/60157-what-motivates-white-supremacists.html
    https://www.businessinsider.com/the-psychology-behind-why-someone-becomes-a-white-nationalist-2019-8

    As for the second part of what you said...I'll just say your argument falls flat. Are those things happening? Yes...and the way to fix it is through the enforcement of laws we already have. But under your argument, it's perfectly acceptable to resort to violence because rights are being violated.

    I'll point out this to show the flaw in your logic, if prolifers believed as you do...they would resort to far more bombings and actual violence against abortion clinics. Does that happen? yes, but not on the scale it would happen if most didn't hold to the believe that the proper way to fix things is through the law.

    I think we can point to the Malcolm X vs. Martin Luther King Jr. Debates as a historical precedent.

    Edit: Another really good study. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...368.627709562.1565019914-654197321.1564404181
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  8. kelkorkesis

    kelkorkesis Second Year

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    You can call it whatever you want. It is still ridiculous. You can't just attack someone because they hold stupid political views and some other person (organization?, state?, government agency?) wronged you.
     
  9. Jarizok

    Jarizok Professor

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    This has got to be the most depressing truth in this thread.

    For all the talk about there being more than two sides to most stories we’ve got a thread titled “One extreme vs the other” that’s getting us all nice and polarised. It’s what’s happening all over the place and I don’t see an answer to it. Pretty depressing.

    Quality argument/debate in here though, as always.
     
  10. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    I think it's also worth noting that there is a difference between racism vs. white supremacy. Or rather, White supremacy is an extreme form of racism.

    Am I racist? At least a little bit. My first instinct when passing a poorly dressed black man in the hallway is to check my wallet. But I'm also doing my best to be aware of those tendencies and combat them in my mind so I treat everyone with kindness.

    Am I a white supremacist? Hell no. I reject any worldview that states I am a better person simply because of my skin tone.

    Neo-nazis/white supremacists embrace such views because they have a need to feel accepted and a need to blame someone else for their problems. They need to feel special.
     
  11. Jarizok

    Jarizok Professor

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    You shouldn’t be allowed to and you aren’t. But maybe show a bit more understanding rather than outrage?

    Something like; “Yeah, you punched a dude after he used a racial slur so you got justly punished. But I understand why you did it and don’t think you’re scum forever now.”

    That’s my personal stance on Antifa anyway; They’re a net negative, I’ve never really given them much thought at all and they should be punished when they do illegal shit. But I sure am glad /someone’s/ out there shouting at nazi’s when they gather.
     
  12. kelkorkesis

    kelkorkesis Second Year

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    People get frustrated and do stupid stuff. Anyone can get riled up and get in a fight. People would punch each other over "your mom" jokes in where I am from. It is all understandable. However It isn't right thing to do and not something that should be defended. I have no right to attack political Islamist in streets despite I think that they ruin my country. It is simple as that.
     
  13. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    But that isn't happening. Which is what I'm getting at. Why else would people be protesting to begin with? No one will enforce the laws that should apply to everyone, so they're protesting. What if peaceful means have been exhausted? Are you just gonna tell all those people to sit back down and take it?

    Martin Luther King Jr. was right because it was possible. Change came out of it. If he'd been categorically shoved off and not a single piece of legislation or justice had come out of it, none at all ever, more people would've sided with Malcom X than already did. Had MLK been assassinated having accomplished no reform, you don't think we would've had blood in the streets? And I quite frankly don't personally blame the people that already did. We nail Malcom X and Antifa and leftists that get fed up with being shit on and oppressed to the wall, but the police end up defending the neo-Nazis, the white supremacists, the murders and antagonizers. And as much as we back MLK in the modern day to the hilt, it wasn't as all-in as people make it seem now. The Black Panthers and other groups weren't exactly devoid of members. People get fucking fed up of looking over their shoulder until someone kills them.

    If a peaceful solution is available, it's always better. But when peaceful options have been exhausted, that leaves you with violence. You act like the system is working fine or in the process of being fixed, and people are angry for no reason. Which is straight bullshit. How many links of rolled back regulations and protections have I dropped in this thread now? Half a dozen? The government is working against people now. In some cases maliciously, in some ignorantly.
     
  14. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Peaceful means have not been exhausted and they won’t be for sometime. The system isn’t perfect, but it still provides what it is supposed to in terms of ability to change things peacefully.

    We aren’t Russia, or China. We have the right to change laws.

    Then run for office. Organize voters. Peacefully protest.


    But resorting to violence is still too far away. You might as well Be arguing for overthrowing the US gov at this point.
     
  15. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    They learned at the teat of years and years and years of practice from the other side. A bit of history on the GOP calling basically anything Democrats do 'Socialism', from the Washington Post. And here are three somewhat interconnected threads on this. Meanwhile, at the Mises Institute...

    As regards nazi-calling: it's a crying shame that there's overuse going on - though I would wager I rate the incidence far, far lower than most others in this thread. Doing so just doesn't work for a variety of reasons, one of which hasn't been mentioned yet as far as I've skimmed.

    A rather leftist point of view is that the general left can be shamed. The general right can not. Ergo, it follows logically that spending your time on using it and explaining it if challenged is time used inefficiently. (Contrarily, the constant jammering about socialism from the GOP has historically been low effort high result.)

    Whether or not you think that leftist assumption is correct hinges on politics. From where I'm sitting - as you might expect from me bringing it up - it's something plausible enough to be entertained, at least in diminished scope. (And, important caveat, there are some very notable inversions/exceptions, cf. the old 'Dems fall in love, Reps fall in line' adage.) At worst, I'd argue the proportion of those who cannot be shamed on the right is larger in the general coalition.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  16. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Have to agree here. For all his claims of not being an Anarchist, it sure seems like all his posts boil down to "The government has failed (and they're all secret Nazis). Time to make the streets run red with blood!"
     
  17. Johnnyseattle

    Johnnyseattle Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Heather Heyer would agree wholeheartedly.
     
  18. Dirty Puzzle

    Dirty Puzzle DA Member DLP Supporter

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    I've said it in every possible way imaginable and you're still just flat out ignoring it. Because you can't read, here's literally every single instance, from the beginning, I was explicitly telling you the very opposite of what you said.

     
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