1. Hey Guest, welcome back to DLP

    As you can see, we've changed our look. We've migrated from vBulletin to the Xenforo forum system. There may be issues or missing functionality, if you find anything or have feedback, please check out the new Xenforo Migration Feedback forum.

    Our dark ("Dark Lord Potter") theme is under heavy development. We also have a light ("Light Lord Potter") theme for those happier with a light background and darker text.

    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Please be courteous to staff and post NEW threads for NEW Issues, instead of posting them in threads that are not related to said issue.

British EU Referendum Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Taure, Oct 13, 2015.

  1. newageofpower

    newageofpower Professor DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    477
    There was a significant amount of logistical support for the British military during the Falklands campaign.

    The F35 project exceeds the capabilities of any homegrown British fighter. Granted, the British could have went to the EU instead, but Fifth-Generation fighter development projects are likely to incur extreme expenses in any case.
     
    tmb
  2. Rhett

    Rhett Fourth Year

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    The Tizard mission can be included there.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission

    All you have to see if the American government's failure to support the UK in it's dispute with Argentina.
     
  3. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    So things are beginning to develop, with it looking increasingly likely that Cameron's negotiations will be over sooner rather than later. This means we might have a vote as early as summer 2016.

    https://next.ft.com/content/801e6408-bcf6-11e5-9fdb-87b8d15baec2

     
  4. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,052
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    Taure, I had to laugh reading that piece. The list got longer and longer, did you realise while reading what it lead to? You want to curb benefit tourism, we want to, France, Austria the Netherlands, [... insert every wealthy western European country], TL;DR: Kick those dirty Eastern Europeans out already, and we all can keep the systems we currently have XD
     
  5. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    The centre for European reform has published a paper outlining British options in the event of an exit. Link.

    The basic summary is that if we vote to leave we're just going to end up rejoining immediately under much worse terms than we currently have.

    Absolute insanity.
     
  6. unorfind

    unorfind Third Year

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    91
    Well but look at the bright side no more Polish plumbers ;)
    but seriously it seems British people demonize inter EU migration too much. I remember some data showing that they are overall net positive and most of EE nationalities being at bottom % of welfare claimants.


    ps interesting map of inter/outer EU migration attitudes https://imgur.com/g1dxDqZ
    more interesting data who is claiming benefits http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06955.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
  7. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    The thing about benefits is that the EU rule is that job-seekers are entitled to claim unemployment benefits from day 1, but access to full benefits does not happen until you are classified as a worker. Obviously this very general rule applies unevenly across the EU and the UK is hit particularly hard by it.

    Most of the EU have contribution-based unemployment benefit systems, meaning that the amount you can claim is proportional to the amount you have contributed. In the UK (and I believe Germany) this is not the case: UK unemployment benefit is available to everyone looking for a job, for as long as they can document actual searches for a job (i.e. applications sent). This means that any EU migrant to the UK can claim benefits from the moment they step on British soil, which is not the case in practice for most EU states (where they will be legally entitled to claim unemployment benefits but have no contributions built up to claim from).

    This is made even worse by the way the UK health system is structured. The NHS being free to all at the point of access means there's no health insurance system like in most of Europe. In most EU states, to gain access to the health care you would have to be covered by either private or public insurance, and access to the public insurance generally would not happen until you gained full access to that state's full benefit system.

    To make matters even worse, anyone in the UK on unemployment benefit can also claim free dental treatment and free pharmaceutical prescriptions, which most of the UK population don't even get.

    So with all those factors in mind, it's not unreasonable that the UK seeks to limit benefits, as the UK system is structured such that the state is liable to pay out far more to EU migrants than other EU states.

    That said, while such reform is justified in principle, I don't think it should be that high a priority in practice. Like you say, studies have shown that EU migrants are net contributors to the UK public finances.

    Anyway, I had a nice day of procrastination today talking about the EU instead of studying EU law XD

    Two highlights which might stimulate discussion here:

    The problems I have with the EU, despite planning to vote to remain:
    Why continentals who say "I wish Britain would just leave" are silly:

     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
  8. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,052
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    I want to say that I'm alternating between funny and sad on the Brexit negotiations in Bruxelles. Arguing till five in the morning, lol. I suppose if it went down without drama, no one could claim they did everything they possibly could, but c'mon.

    At least we know there'll be a result, because I'm pretty sure they already could have agreed, if they wanted to.

    At any rate, what's the latest polling say?
     
  9. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    There's significant variation depending on methodology. Phone polls still put "stay" significantly ahead but other polls report "leave" as having taken the lead. In the general election the phone polls proved slightly more accurate but there's still massive uncertainty.

    As for Cameron's "renegotiation", common consensus in the UK is that it's so feeble as to be meaningless. "Stay" numbers immediately fell in the polls after the draft agreement was released.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  10. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,052
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    Well, to no one's surprise, there's an agreement. Emergency break for 7 years, indexed child benefits (both for new arrivals), the ability to stall Eurozone laws, and the assurance that no, you do not need to be part of an ever closer union.

    Of course, this will do nothing to solve the original point of decreasing immigration numbers. Then again, that was clear from the start, because the problem there is xenophobia, and how would you address that in laws without being xenophobic?

    The emergency break will have virtually no effect, because people come to Britain to work (not for benefits), and they actually do work (instead of getting benefits), so this is a lulzy solution to a non-existing problem.

    Glad you could fix that, I guess :p
     
  11. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
  12. CaptainPie

    CaptainPie Squib

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5
    High Score:
    0
    It has the desired effect. Cameron is seen as having done something, so he can get the eurosceptics off his back, and since he did indeed negotiate terms he doesn't have to call a referendum while still fulfilling his campaign promises.

    The system worked.
     
  13. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,052
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    Er, are you saying he isn't calling the referendum which he called for Thursday, June 23rd?
     
  14. JoJo23

    JoJo23 Auror

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    652
    Interesting to see the impact this referendum will have on the Scots, Welsh and NI elections. Seems like a real kick in the balls for the scots and welsh conservatives, who have been trying desperately to position themselves in the political mainstream. Their vote may well be split.
     
  15. Odran

    Odran Prisoner

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,768
    Saw this news just now and figured this was the proper thread for it:

    Civil servants banned from helping EU out campaigners

     
  16. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    It's a fairly standard example of the rule that government officials are not allowed to use governmental resources for matters outside their capacity as members of the the government. Brexit is not government policy therefore anyone campaigning for it is doing so in their personal capacity.
     
  17. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Empire City
    High Score:
    2810
    It's the equivalent of the Hatch Act here, which prohibits civil servants from engaging in politics in their capacity as government officials.

    On topic, I've heard a lot in the past couple of days about Sterling tanking in the currency markets as Brexit advocacy increases from high profile people like Boris Johnson, etc. Do you think this gives voters pause, or are they not concerned with esoteric things like currency exchange markets?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  18. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,052
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    If this was about facts and reason, there wouldn't be a referendum to begin with. English people feel disturbed in their English Englishness, and therefore they'd rather not.

    I wonder how it will go down if England has a clear vote for leaving, and Britain stays because votes in NI and especially Scotland. Perhaps, this time, England demands independence.
     
  19. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    I doubt it will change much. Currency is extremely responsive to uncertainty - the same thing happened before the Scottish referendum. The fall of the pound is not so much a judgment on Brexit itself as much as it's an expression of unpredictability.

    Further, the fall in the pound will be cheered by a decent number of people. For those who want to "rebalance" the UK economy and increase exports of manufactured goods, a lower pound is a good thing.

    I dunno, I think there's one good argument for Brexit, which is this: the UK is never going to join the Euro. It's not politically possible, but more importantly (because politics can change quickly), it's not economically possible. I'm not sure if the EU has really fully thought through the long term implications of this. I imagine there's a dominant body of thought that has always assumed that eventually, the UK would join. But I don't think it's ever going to happen. Not unless the UK economy radically transforms in the next few decades away from a "home ownership" economy to a "renting" economy. Everyone seems to forget that the UK was originally supposed to join the Euro, but the attempt caused an economic crash and a recession. The opt-out wasn't planned, it was a recognition of economic reality.

    This surely means that eventually, as the Eurozone integrates closer and closer and becomes more and more like a federal state, there is going to come a point where the EU has been hollowed out and the EZ is the real body through which European affairs are run. At that point the UK will be essentially "out" already.

    Therefore, since in the long run the UK has no viable future in the European Union, it makes a certain amount of sense to start the work now in trying to come up with an alternative strategy for Britain's geopolitical and trade position.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  20. Hashasheen

    Hashasheen Totally Sirius

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Messages:
    3,469
    Location:
    Bristol
    I pay for the NHS as an international student, so that's not quite right. :sherlock:

    In relation to EU migrants getting benefits, I don't believe that that's actually a problem in the UK, but if it was, surely you could just have a seperate law for migrants mandating they put in first to get later like the remainder of the EU does? British benefits for British citizens, EU benefits for EU citizens and all that?
     
Loading...