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China Systematically Eradicating Islam

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Taure, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48825090

    What do people think? DLP is pretty atheist and I imagine as a consequence fairly anti-Islam as well. There's a prominent form of atheist thought that raising a child religiously is a form of indoctrination/abuse (as popularised by Richard Dawkins). This is I suppose the logical consequence of the state adopting that belief. One might even say that it is a moral advance compared to the genocidal/eugenics approach to social engineering.

    So:
    • Do people think that raising children religiously (and specifically within the Islamic faith) is morally acceptable?
    • If it is not morally acceptable, should the state do something about it?
    • If the state should do something about it, is China's approach correct/acceptable?
    It is certainly an interesting contrast to the liberal approach of Western nations to large-scale immigration of Muslims, which has problems of its own.
     
  2. Agayek

    Agayek Half-Blood Prince DLP Supporter

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    I think that, on the whole, religious households are not a problem for children. It's simply raising them with a set of moral guidelines and philosophies, no better or worse than any other such set, religious or otherwise. Literally every parent does the same thing.

    Islam is a "problem" insofar as the middle east is the center of Islamic thought, and is simultaneously a shit hole run by various flavors of either extremists or monsters. And if Islam had never become a thing, this problem would continue to exist regardless, because the problematic parts are engrained in the culture of the Middle East.

    China here is continuing their general disdain for human rights and feeding their fetish for a mono-cultural population that's easier to control. Nothing more or less, and it's still just as depressing as the last time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  3. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Would I Thanos-snap all religions if I could? Short Answer: Yes.
    Is Islam the worst of the lot? I dunno. I don't know enough, but probably? I'm very much aligned with Sam Harris on this topic.

    I don't think the requirement of them downloading your phone's history is 'unacceptable,' though it's extreme. AFAIK they're doing way more fucked up shit to their local Islamic people though, aren't they? Basically taking them off the street and 'reeducating' them?

    I don't think their position is one of ideology though. I remember reading that it had more to do with not wanting any religion to have any kind of power that could rival the state in any way.
     
  4. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign ~ Prestige ~

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    I don't like religion, I don't think we need it anymore except in fiction, but what China is doing is clearly going too far. I've always found Dawkins' stance on religious upbringing excessively smug and superior. Parents are gonna raise their kids according to their beliefs, values and morals. If you honestly believe Jesus is the Lord or whatever then I can't exactly fault you for teaching your kid what you think is important and true. When you discourage the kid's curiosity about other things, that's when I begin to take issue with parents.

    I do think that progressive movements in Western countries are too tolerant of some parts of Islam and islamophobia is about as meaningful a word today as Nazi, but that's a whole different can of worms and this thread doesn't seem right for it.

    Killing religion is one of those things we can let happen on its own.
     
  5. h2o

    h2o Professor

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  6. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Before everything, I want to announce that the apocalypse has come (find your local Antichrist kid to avoid it) because I'm in broad agreement with Scott on this one. I'm not a conceptual fan of religion, though I've considerably mellowed over the years. I think some of the organisations are pretty bad at this whole 'look after your flock' thing, but at an individual level: if faith is part of what gives you the strength and energy to live, then by all means, employ that faith.

    Additionally, parents will raise a child with beliefs that are valuable to them. (As will any adult that the child comes into lengthy contact with to some degree.) As long as there's no infringing of human rights - and I'm fully aware that this is nebulous and societally influenced - I don't give a rat's arse. Dito on stifling curiosity.

    You are comparing things to some of the darkest chapters of humanity. 'At least it's not eugenics or genocide,' is a very interesting hill to die on. Or a very interesting oceanic trench to die in, more accurately. As far as morality goes, this is still somewhere way, way, way outside of what is (and should be) considered acceptable. What China is doing here is nothing short of reprehensible, on a historical/cultural/linguistic front (destroying the Uyghur history and culture/language) and a humanitarian front (separation of children from their parents, the parents being dumped in concentration camps).

    To be perfectly fucking clear: the former is already an atrocity. One that will be seen as increasingly bad as time moves on, provided we don't nuke ourselves into extinction in some way. The latter two are orders of magnitude worse. Nothing of this is anywhere even remotely on the same continent as 'acceptable human behaviour'.

    Interesting, he says, assigning, with the rest of his sentence, implicit equivalency to the failures of immigration/assimilation in the West, and totalitarian bullshit in China's West. As if the problems that do exist in Europe and the US - and sadly there are too many of those problems, including radicalisation and otherisation - are a justification for China pulling this kind of unfortunately-not-dystopian* human rights abuse. This framing is nothing short of reprehensible and deplorable.

    *Utopias and dystopias are, by definition, fictional.
    And it all started with your 'hot takes'.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  7. Hakairyu

    Hakairyu Fourth Year

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    So I think it should be noted that this is not a religious conflict, but an ethnic one playing out through religion. Ethnically Chinese Muslims (Hui, if I’m not mistaken) are not being targeted, the Uyghurs are; and this is a consequence of the Uyghur separatist movement being heavily intertwined with Islamism.

    Now, do I think there being less Islam in the world is a good thing? Unequivocally yes. Do I think it’s in any way a bad thing if parents cannot transmit their religion to their children or a separatist movement so heavily Islamist in nature is suppressed? Not at all. But none of that is relevant. So long as abduction and separation can be demonstrated, this is, by legal definition, a genocide, and should be treated accordingly. The key word being “should”, this is China we’re talking about. And while we’re on the subject of crimes against humanity targeting relatives of those who may or may not be Islamists, I can’t help but wonder what Revan thinks about this.

    On the more general topic, while I do dislike that parents perpetuate their religious views through parenting, to call it child abuse is ridiculous (except for all the times that it is done through child abuse, that’s not exactly rare). I’d much rather see the state not recognize minors as capable of being religious, extending into stuff like “You cannot circumcise your child/defend your right to circumcise your child based on religious grounds.”
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
    HMM
  8. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    @Oment feel free to climb off your drama horse. The framing is neutral because it is an OP. I am not putting forward any views of my own, simply setting out topics of discussion.
     
  9. Oment

    Oment The Betrayer

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    Schrödinger weeps.

    I'll leave.
     
  10. TMD

    TMD Professor DLP Supporter

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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ch...asia/china&link_location=live-reporting-story

    There is an video in this article (halfway down), also from the BBC and by the same author as the article in @Taure's OP, part of the same series. I would highly recommend everyone to watch this video.

    This situation is indefensible, and should be considered totally morally unacceptable by any non-psychopathic member of the human race - regardless of your views towards Islam or religion. While the article in the OP focused more on children being separated from their parents, the bigger issue at the moment is what is happening to the parents themselves. Evidence of torture, beatings, systematic re-education and other widespread forms of abuse in literal concentration camps. One of the most damning things from the above article and elsewhere is that foreign journalists were "invited to see the reality of the conditions", and yet were kept on a strict leash as to where they could go, and who they could speak to. The people they spoke to were all vocally happy with their current situation - it being abundantly obvious the duress they were under. A former resident of one of the camps when asked about this said they were told: "if any of you speak out, you will go to a place worse than this". Satellite images also show that shortly before the journalists were invited in, prison style watchtowers throughout the facilities were taken down, and empty barbed wire fenced spaces were quickly converted to have sports facilities like basketball courts and football pitches.

    Another article from France24, by Angélique FORGET and Antoine VÉDEILHÉ. Includes more evidence in a longer video, of things such as women being given injections, with no consent, to stop their periods (sounds like depo-provera) and sedate them. "Then we no longer thought about anything, we no longer thought about our relatives, our families, I didn't know where i'd been born, I felt like i'd always lived there. We longer felt the cold or the hunger, it's as if we were just pieces of meat that were put there.

    I'm sure we can all agree that no matter how anti-religion you are, if you feel there are problems or issues with Muslim immigration into Europe/the West (which undoubtedly there are some), the solution is not to go to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum (extermination) or one step previous and adjacent to that which is what China is doing with these camps. That the outcry from the rest of the world is as small as it has been is not surprising, given the highly effective anti-Muslim propaganda prevalent in the western world, the political weakness/non-existence/current subservience of the Muslim world, and the gargantuan economic and political strength of China. Essentially, if other nations aren't willing to fuck with China over issues like their naval expansion, their other lesser humanitarian abuses, or some of their economic policies...then they're sure as hell not going to fuck with China over a bunch of Muslims they wouldn't even usually give a shit about being thrown into concentration camps.

    Regarding the children, I retain hope - perhaps naively - that their treatment will be better than their parents and they will be simply forced to live in strict boarding schools, rather than them also being beaten or tortured.

    From the graffiti found in one of the camps by the BBC journalists: "oh my heart, don't break"

    Declaration of interests: Am both Muslim, and have a professional special interest in Psychiatry of war/torture/genocide victims.
     
  11. Gengar

    Gengar Polymagus ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    China? Committing Human Rights violations? Shut the front door.
     
  12. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    As a Christian and theist, I wholeheartedly condemn the actions of China in this case.

    I disagree heavily with Islam and believe it is one of the easiest religions to radicalize due to their lack of a transformational moment in the Q’uran that renders their violent commands unjustifiable on a theological level (Christianity does have this transition with the doing away of the Old Covenant and institution of the New post Christ’s resurrection).

    But, freedom of religion is a good thing and a government taking away that freedom is morally wrong. So long as people engage in their religion peacefully, there should be no government interference.
     
  13. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    My own position largely reflects Arthellion's (in end result if not in principle). While I sympathise with the temptation to legislate against the morally objectionable elements of Islam such as the wearing of veils (as France did), I think that history has proven time and time again that it is liberty, not oppression, which transforms societies for the better. Oppression has a tendency to backfire.

    The way to transform Islam into something more compatible with modern, secular values is not through force and legislation but through the same process by which Christianity has been tamed in Europe - the incidents of prosperity such as education and consumer culture. Simply put: rich, healthy and secure people with plenty of distractions rarely care much about religion.

    So to answer my own questions:

    1. No.

    2. Only indirectly.

    3. No.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  14. Lindsey

    Lindsey Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    China is not committing these atrocities because they are Muslim. They are committing these atrocities because they are Uyghur. Islam has been a part of China for hundreds of years. It's the fact that the Uyghur people are not Chinese, do not speak Mandarin, have a different culture AND are another religion. The Hui people are Han based Muslims and they haven't suffered at all. In fact, many famous actresses in China are Uyghur. They just act and speak like the Han and thus are okay...

    Honestly, I find it strange that the media is focusing on the Uyghur people as Muslims when it can easily be classified as 'Mixed race Chinese children are being separated from their families.' I'm almost wondering if the reason they are saying 'Muslim' is that many people don't give a rats ass about these people because they are Muslim... but if they were classified as white (or mixed). Oh lordy. Suddenly the West would actually have to do something. God forbid.

    Here is a little history about the region:
    In the 17th century, Western China was primarily made up of the Dzungar people. They were a Buddhist and nomadic kingdom that was constantly fighting the Qing. Eventually, the emperor of China got sick of fighting the Dzungar people and launched a full-scale genocide against them, wiping them out. Then the emperor encouraged the Uyghurs to take over the now empty land, knowing that they were Islamic and fine with it.

    Of course, like in most of Chinese history, the Tarim Basin was very loosely controlled and often suffered from rebellions and shifting borders due to its distance and landscape. During the transition from the Kingdom of China to the Republic of China, the Tarim Basin declared independence. They wanted an Uyghur nation. It was even supported by Russia.

    Alas, the People's Republic of China won the war, captured and destroyed the new nation and put it under its control. But even then, most the region was ignored as long as they kept their heads down as the region was poor and rather useless.

    The problem is, now China has the wealth, technology and 'reason' to finally do something about these people who are 'different' from them. Their land, while quite barren, is filled with tremendous resources such as rare metals, gems, oil, etc. The land is also the start of many important rivers that flow throughout China.

    China is now rich enough they can build railroads linking the land and encouraging Han Chinese to move there. Don't forget The Chinese Government has indoctrinated the people in believing that atrocities are fine as long as they are 'for progress.' It's immensely sickening how many Chinese have been indoctrinated with this belief. You are seeing this now with Hong Kong.

    The Chinese are committing genocide (and yes, legally this would be a genocide) against the Uyghurs because they are different. Because there is an independence movement in these regions and China isn't going to risk losing Xinjiang. These same things are happening in Tibet as well.

    I believe this is happening now because the Chinese economic model is starting to flounder. I have some friends living in China and the consensus is grim. House prices in many cities are worse than SF, much of the country still is lacking power and fresh water, manufacturing is leaving China in droves and the population is ageing rapidly. In a society where the main belief is: 'I support my government because it's making my life better, even if I am losing freedoms' when life stops getting better...

    The real reason China is clamping down everywhere is that they want to instil fear in the people before their economy stagnates. China has never been known as a stable country when the economy starts going downhill.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  15. Shouldabeenadog

    Shouldabeenadog Auror

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    Disclaimer-Jewish, practicing. Never-Trump Republican.

    I'm going to be very clear. This is beyond unacceptable, and if Trump said we were going to war to stop it I would probably join up in support. At least when Myanmar went ethnic cleansing, they let them leave the country. This feels like China is playing eu4 and trying to do cultural change, with all of the genoicde implications as explicit. And I mean that in China is playing not just with people's lives, but their culture and soul. This is comparable to the worst parts of human history, and as others have said, repression leads to rebellion which escalates. This will get worse without intervention. We could end up seeing concentration camps turning into extermination camps.
    So to answer the actual questions:
    Yes, N/A, no, see post.

    On raising children in Islamic faith: no religious or non-religious upgringing has been shown to not produce truly evil people as well as exemplars of humanity.
     
  16. Lindsey

    Lindsey Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    I highly disagree with going to war with China, even for a reason such as this.

    Ignoring the facts that this is a war we cannot win (unless we become even worse than the Chinese), I also believe there is a far easier way of hitting them where it hurts: sanctions.

    I'm not talking about the ones Trump is doing either. I mean a complete ban of mainland Chinese investing in America (and Europe), high tariffs on goods produced in China or anything China wishes to buy, etc, etc. This would have to be done by most Western countries. Most of China's economy is based on industry, and while they are trying to move away from it, they still have a long way to go. Hurt their economy... and containing Uyghurs will be the least of their problems. That being said, not only could that cause a depression worldwide, you may end up causing more suffering if China splits or is plunged into a revolution or civil war.
     
  17. Download

    Download First Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The internet will kill religion. It might take an extra generation in the Middle East, but it will get there.

    Whether that will fix the ME's other issues is another question, though I suspect access to information will kill that too.
     
  18. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    #FakeNews

    This only works if the internet is a source of truth. As technology advances so does the ability to fool people. See deepfakes and how sophisticated they’ve gotten.
     
  19. Zerg_Lurker

    Zerg_Lurker Order Member DLP Supporter

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    Thankfully the greatest, most ineffable source of truth you can find is the Quran Bible, amirite?

    China's truth machine seems to be working wonders in that regard.
     
  20. Silirt

    Silirt Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    If North Korea figures this one out they could have the same supreme leader for the next thousand years.
     
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